Off-Topic: Elton John today

[Nikolaj]

[QUOTE=iamnotafraid;872876]I wasn't trying to be deceptive at all.

Yes, what you did was deceptive. You copied and pasted my message under a header of which the default is 'Originally Posted By (Nikolaj)' and then you removed a good portion of what I had written.

[iamnotafraid]

Nikolaj,
I responded to the part of your post I edited. I do that all the time.
If I left in everything you said it would have been harder to understand
my response to your post. Again I wasn't trying to be deceptive in the least.

And you're right about my brother I should forgive him, but I'm struggling
with it.

[Nikolaj]

I found the passage, right after- a second after- I asked God to help me find it, I found it on Page 282, I was growing weary of looking for it- I should have asked 281 pages earlier!
It's in Corinthians 1, Chapter 6:
"Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the Kingdom of God".

And, I'll let it rest with this comment: that you said 'you do it all the time' doesn't make it right, to remove a key point I was making to make it more suit what you care to respond to.
My point was/is that 'homosexual offender' is DIFFERENT than 'homosexual'--
If HE meant that "no homosexual shall enter the Kingdom of God"...it would say that. It does not.

Have a great Sunday.

[iamnotafraid]

Nikolaj,

Without using any of your response in my reply. I did not find what you had
said was written in the Bible. The following is what I found concerning the verses
posted:

NKJV
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?
Do not be decieved. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers,
nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous,
nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

KJV 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?
Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor
effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor
covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners shall inherit the
kingdom of God.

[Zombie]

Ah, good ol' self-righteousness. It's such an intoxicating feeling, isn't it? We all succumb to it sometimes, and sure, it may help you feel better about yourself at the time and let you rest easy that night, so secure in the knowledge that you know what's what... but one day, you may wake up to realize that you've treated good people in a heinous way they absolutely didn't deserve just because you like the feeling - real or delusional, whatever the case may be - of being right.

It's discussions like these that remind me to be thankful I am atheist. I don't need a book to tell me who is and isn't a good person - all I need to do is open my eyes and my ears, and listen when someone opens his/her mouth - for good or for bad.

And damned if I don't love it when it's as easy to suss out as it is in this thread.

[tilthefirefades]

^ I couldn't have put it any better

I too feel reassured with my atheism

[jaycee]

Originally Posted by Zombie

Ah, good ol' self-righteousness. It's such an intoxicating feeling, isn't it? We all succumb to it sometimes, and sure, it may help you feel better about yourself at the time and let you rest easy that night, so secure in the knowledge that you know what's what... but one day, you may wake up to realize that you've treated good people in a heinous way they absolutely didn't deserve just because you like the feeling - real or delusional, whatever the case may be - of being right.

It's discussions like these that remind me to be thankful I am atheist. I don't need a book to tell me who is and isn't a good person - all I need to do is open my eyes and my ears, and listen when someone opens his/her mouth - for good or for bad.

And damned if I don't love it when it's as easy to suss out as it is in this thread.

You're right on the money here!
I find it astounding that people make various quotes from the Bible, working out what's acceptable and what isn't from it, and telling us we're all sinners with sin being an unavoidable part of being human. Can't they think for themselves and work out how to be nice and genuinely ethical with rationality? Or don't they have any?
And why not quote some other holy books, like the Qur'an or the Vedas? They seem just as internally inconsistent with the contradictory logic they employ throughtout their writings. Perhaps it's because Christianity is correct, because if you believe it hard enough, Christianity must be true.
About the only religion I can tolerate anymore is Buddhism - despite the odd fault here and there (e.g. children born disabled are people that have done something terribly wrong in their past life), it seems a much more pleasant religion than any others (i.e. while other religions have a habit for turning out both good and bad people, buddhism doesn't seem to do the latter, so far as I know). I doubt I'd argue for a strong philosophical, rational basis for everything as passionately as I do nowadays if Buddhism was the only religion people might choose to follow that I had to "contend" with.
Please excuse the length of my rant!

[Nikolaj]

Hi- to Carrie, I see your point about the copying and pasting- it was just what was omitted with what was left was then all edited together to look like it had been written that way, I don't think you do that- I myself, of course, have copied a portion of what someone has written to reply to it, but I didn't edit out a substantial part and then leave pasted on an ending to it by the author that changed or left out the point that had been made. The paste job completely changed the content and what was omitted changed what I was saying.
But, maybe I'm wrong, and it's possible I shouldn't have even mentioned it. I can say it doesn't matter to me now, so I'm sorry if I over-reacted.
All I can say to notafraid, is that the word 'offender' is in there, right where I said, in Corinthians, in the 1986 Gideons International King James New Testament. If the word was left out of your Bible, there must have been a homophobe editor at work! Because, an 'amplified bible' which mine is not, may add passages, words, meditations, but for a word to be taken out, it's a shame. And I believe you. No wonder so many gays and lesbians have been turned off to God when so many believe we're doomed to Hell just for being who the f*** we are. I don't believe it, and encourage gays and lesbians to find the truth, too. Sigh. I've got no debate or fight left in me on this, you know what you know, and I know what I know. It's good. Peace and good will to not afraid.
Back to Carrie, my 'if I had a brother maybe I wouldnt have turned out queer' comment was partially joking, partially not. I was close to my mom and my sister. I didn't have that same connection with my Dad, and wanted it, but my Dad was just so foreign to me- wrong word, but close, we didn't connect. But he's in his late 70s now and we get along well. I'm a better son now than I ever was. And he has his good points that I appreciate now. I just lacked male relatability (?) as a child and I'm sure I overstated that me having a brother would have made me less apt to want to find a meaningful male closeness that I lacked growing up.
Boy, this is all too much, I think I had better stick to the 'which demo was best' discussions in the Nicks and Rumours forums.
Thanks for letting me pass some time here!

[carrie721]

Originally Posted by iamnotafraid

Romans 5:8
But God Demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we
were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Romans 6:1
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may
abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer
in it?

John Chapter 8 An adultress faces Jesus.
The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman to Jesus who had been
caught in the act of adultery. And testing Jesus they said "Now Moses,
in the law, commanded us that such should be stoned. But what do You
say we do?" And as they continued asking Him, He raised Himself up and
said unto them, "He who is without sin among you, let him cast the first
stone."

And then Jesus said "Woman, where are those accusers of yours? Has no
one condemned you?" She said "No, one Lord." And Jesus said to her "Neither
do I condemn you; go and sin no more.

Yes, we come to Jesus as sinners, but no where in the Bible does it state
that we are to continue dwelling in sin. The verses I pulled out of the book
of John backs this up. Especially verse 11 "go and sin no more".

You didn't particularly call me a "right winger", but everyone that thinks
homosexuality is a sin doesn't hate you. Nor do they want to control you
life. Many will tell you the truth because they are worried about where your
sin (all sin) will take you. And that's Hell.

Even if you don't believe in Hell, can you imagine not telling someone that
they need to be saved or need to repent? Love is the reason that some Christians
will try and lead you to Christ.

I have my own sins, so I'm not throwing stones at you. And I know that many on
this board are homosexuals by their own admittance. Some of my favorites on this
board are very open about it. I hold no hatred for them (or any others on this
board). But I wouldn't lie about my thoughts on the subject just to make friends.
And I do believe it is a sin. And I wouldn't want to be Elton John in the afterlife.
Christ commited no sin, He was and will always be perfect.

i am not a religious person or a biblical scholar by any means. however, i was raised christian and devoted a lot of time and energy when i was younger to trying to reconcile the beliefs i was taught with the knowledge that i was gay. in the end, i couldn't, but that is neither here nor there.

what i don't understand is why so many christians get hung up on homosexuality. there are countless sins that people commit every day, but it seems overall that christians are inordinately concerned about homosexuality and some go so far as to spread lies and demonize us in order to strip us of basic human dignity.

i understand the biblical argument is that sex should be procreative and therefore acting on homosexual urges is wrong. however, i have seen firsthand the psychic damage that is caused when gay people lead straight lives, and that damage has a ripple effect. the struggle to deny something as fundamental as your sexuality is unimaginable.

honestly, i don't mind being told i'm going to hell because i don't believe in an afterlife. i mind more when people try to lead me to christ (or any religion) because the implication is that my life is less meaningful because i don't belong to a religion.

i think the human need for transcendence is a universal one. i don't think i'm better or smarter than anybody just because i'm not a christian. i am still awed and humbled by the beauty of the natural world, the kindness of others, the scope of our universe; even though i don't see the hand of god in any of it. but i don't feel the need to talk anyone out of being a christian, muslim, jew, etc. so it bugs me when someone tries to talk me into being one.

you know i like you and i am not talking about you in particular with any of this. i just wanted to explain how things look from the other side.

Originally Posted by Nikolaj

Yes, what you did was deceptive. You copied and pasted my message under a header of which the default is 'Originally Posted By (Nikolaj)' and then you removed a good portion of what I had written.

nikolaj, i do this all the time, quoting just the parts of someone else's post that are pertinent to my response. i have seen many others do it too. the intent is rarely if ever to passive aggressively denounce what was omitted. i don't even think iamnotafraid was trying to debate your point.

Originally Posted by Nikolaj

double PS-- If "I" had a brother, I may not have turned out queer! I'm not complaining, I'm content with the truth.

really? how come? i'm not challenging you, i'm just always interested in what people think is the root of homosexuality.

[jaycee]

Originally Posted by carrie721

i am not a religious person or a biblical scholar by any means. however, i was raised christian and devoted a lot of time and energy when i was younger to trying to reconcile the beliefs i was taught with the knowledge that i was gay. in the end, i couldn't, but that is neither here nor there.

what i don't understand is why so many christians get hung up on homosexuality. there are countless sins that people commit every day, but it seems overall that christians are inordinately concerned about homosexuality and some go so far as to spread lies and demonize us in order to strip us of basic human dignity.

i understand the biblical argument is that sex should be procreative and therefore acting on homosexual urges is wrong. however, i have seen firsthand the psychic damage that is caused when gay people lead straight lives, and that damage has a ripple effect. the struggle to deny something as fundamental as your sexuality is unimaginable.

honestly, i don't mind being told i'm going to hell because i don't believe in an afterlife. i mind more when people try to lead me to christ (or any religion) because the implication is that my life is less meaningful because i don't belong to a religion.

i think the human need for transcendence is a universal one. i don't think i'm better or smarter than anybody just because i'm not a christian. i am still awed and humbled by the beauty of the natural world, the kindness of others, the scope of our universe; even though i don't see the hand of god in any of it. but i don't feel the need to talk anyone out of being a christian, muslim, jew, etc. so it bugs me when someone tries to talk me into being one.

you know i like you and i am not talking about you in particular with any of this. i just wanted to explain how things look from the other side.



nikolaj, i do this all the time, quoting just the parts of someone else's post that are pertinent to my response. i have seen many others do it too. the intent is rarely if ever to passive aggressively denounce what was omitted. i don't even think iamnotafraid was trying to debate your point.



really? how come? i'm not challenging you, i'm just always interested in what people think is the root of homosexuality.

I'm already back! It's just because the ever-insightful carrie721 posted.
I find the universe all the more remarkable at the thought that it's all a natural process! It seems more remarkable than thinking it was all created with a bit of magic, at least to me anyway...
(In case you want to know, I personally think the universe is a physical manifestation of an underlying piece of grand mathematics. Of course, I study particle physics, so in a way that shouldn't surprise anyone. Also, my philosophy of mathematics is Platonic. The best evidence I can think of to justify that philosophy is the magic of complex numbers, which, by the simple positing of i^2 = -1, reveals a whole lot of unexpected relationships, particularly e^ix = cosx + isinx. )
As for the roots of homosexuality, it's best described as a type of biological "misfire". As far as I can tell, this "misfire" and that of fetishes are related (i.e. the origins should be related, even though the desires can easily be independent). I myself have a latex fetish. (And, no, I'm not into forms of dom/sub, or much of anything beyond wearing latex. I'm rather boring in that way! )
Ultimately these issues all come down to genes, although sometimes (perhaps with this instance, for example) that can be as helpful as saying that we're made of fundamental particles - certainly, that's where the answer lies, but it does nothing to help our brains understand the problem!

[carrie721]

Originally Posted by jaycee

I'm already back! It's just because the ever-insightful carrie721 posted.
I find the universe all the more remarkable at the thought that it's all a natural process! It seems more remarkable than thinking it was all created with a bit of magic, at least to me anyway...
(In case you want to know, I personally think the universe is a physical manifestation of an underlying piece of grand mathematics. Of course, I study particle physics, so in a way that shouldn't surprise anyone. Also, my philosophy of mathematics is Platonic. The best evidence I can think of to justify that philosophy is the magic of complex numbers, which, by the simple positing of i^2 = -1, reveals a whole lot of unexpected relationships, particularly e^ix = cosx + isinx. )
As for the roots of homosexuality, it's best described as a type of biological "misfire". As far as I can tell, this "misfire" and that of fetishes are related (i.e. the origins should be related, even though the desires can easily be independent). I myself have a latex fetish. (And, no, I'm not into forms of dom/sub, or much of anything beyond wearing latex. I'm rather boring in that way! )
Ultimately these issues all come down to genes, although sometimes (perhaps with this instance, for example) that can be as helpful as saying that we're made of fundamental particles - certainly, that's where the answer lies, but it does nothing to help our brains understand the problem!

you just blew my mind by bringing up i^2 = -1. i have thought about that every day since i learned about "i" in algebra 2 way back in 10th grade. i have no idea why, but it fascinates me. i should take more math classes or something.

your point about the biological misfire is a good one. i haven't completely fleshed out my thoughts on the origins of homosexuality, but i definitely fall more on the "nature" side of nature vs. nurture.