A Ledgie wants to know: Economy Edition

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

See, it's shizz like this that makes me batshizz about the unmitigated corporate greed at BS:

http://www.observer.com/2008/bear-st...za-then-bridge

Bear Stearns' Cayne Takes The Plaza, Then Bridge
by Tom Acitelli | March 17, 2008 | Tags: Real Estatebear stearnsJames CayneThe Plaza

Bear Stearns chairman James Cayne was in Detroit at the start of the weekend that saw the tanking of his venerable investment bank. Why? Mr. Cayne was competing in the North American Bridge Championship, according to reports.

Also last week, as the perfect storm gathered, Mr. Cayne closed on a $25 million condo at the revamped Plaza.

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If there is any justice in the world, the SEC or the Fed or somebody should be going after the personal assets of these criminals. Government Repo Sale at The Plaza! Besides, who needs The Plaza when there is a luxury suite waiting for him at Rykers Island.

Justice requires implementing the law. Can you prove he did anything illegal? If so, then he should be prosecuted. But, buying a condo at the new Plaza is not against the law and neither is taking a vacation to be in bridge tournament, though his timing sucks.

Again, it seems you are equating a tanking company to illegality. There may be illegal acts here, but they have yet to be proven.

I know it sounds harsh, but you building a fancy house with lanscaping and a swimming pool in a time when thousands are losing their houses and jobs also likely would appear to many less fortunates as a bad thing and that you certainly must have done something wrong to get that. I know you did not, but the appearance would be there for them to assume that. So, I do not begrudge anyone for making enough money to build a pool or buy a $25 million condo at The Plaza. Again, if they broke the law, then justice should prevail.

I readily agree that in many cases illegal acts are performed. But, as of now, there is no evidence of that. Should the SEC or some other entitity be investigating - yes, they should. And, they often get the bad guys as they did in Enron. And, they take their assets, the ones that have not been legally removed from their possession, which actually is very hard to do believe it or not.

By the way, this guy likely lost about a billion dollars or at least several hundred million dollars yesterday. So, it is not like he is without harm as well Of course, many are loathe to admit that becuase he already is a millionaire and people just cannot help but hate them and think that anything over some arbitrary number of wealth is too much.

[HejiraNYC]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

Justice requires implementing the law. Can you prove he did anything illegal? If so, then he should be prosecuted. But, buying a condo at the new Plaza is not against the law and neither is taking a vacation to be in bridge tournament, though his timing sucks.

I don't know the particular details of each transaction... but from my 20,000ft perch, it appears that they exploited loopholes and defrauded investors with voo doo accounting methods and reckless, unethical lending/trading practices. While it may have been legit from a legal perspective, the intent appears to have been fraudulent. But I don't think anyone will really know for certain until it all comes out in the wash...

Again, it seems you are equating a tanking company to illegality. There may be illegal acts here, but they have yet to be proven.

True. However, my problem here is from a moral/ethical point of view. It appears that BS, via their smoke and mirrors, managed to pump and dump gazillions of worthless shares in their favor, took all the profits for themselves, and left the bagholders, er, shareholders with nothing in the end. Meanwhile, they are going to bridge tournaments and buying 25 million-dollar condos at the Plaza while their customers are going to the poorhouse. I suppose it may be technically legal for these guys to pay themselves whatever they want. But at the end of the day, they need to be able to justify their lofty compensation packages. Why do you suppose there was that hearing in Congress last week with the CEO's of Citi, Countrywide, etc.? Something seriously stinks in Denmark, and some members of Congress are finally taking notice.

I know it sounds harsh, but you building a fancy house with lanscaping and a swimming pool in a time when thousands are losing their houses and jobs also likely would appear to many less fortunates as a bad thing and that you certainly must have done something wrong to get that. I know you did not, but the appearance would be there for them to assume that. So, I do not begrudge anyone for making enough money to build a pool or buy a $25 million condo at The Plaza. Again, if they broke the law, then justice should prevail.

For one thing, none of it is "fancy." Secondly, I am not being scrutinized because of a scandal involving a major corporation and billions of dollars going tits-up. Apples and oranges, mon frere! Everything I do is off the radar because there is nothing in the least bit shady about what I do.

I readily agree that in many cases illegal acts are performed. But, as of now, there is no evidence of that. Should the SEC or some other entitity be investigating - yes, they should. And, they often get the bad guys as they did in Enron. And, they take their assets, the ones that have not been legally removed from their possession, which actually is very hard to do believe it or not.

Again, right now the appearance is that these guys are guilty until proven innocent. And they're not the only ones with blood on their hands. All of the major Wall Street firms exploited the system to varying degrees, and the great unwinding is just beginning.

By the way, this guy likely lost about a billion dollars or at least several hundred million dollars yesterday. So, it is not like he is without harm as well Of course, many are loathe to admit that becuase he already is a millionaire and people just cannot help but hate them and think that anything over some arbitrary number of wealth is too much.

Awww... let me call a wAAAAAAmbulance for them.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

. . . but from my 20,000ft perch . . .

That is higher than the view from The Plaza.

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

. . . For one thing, none of it is "fancy." Secondly, I am not being scrutinized because of a scandal involving a major corporation and billions of dollars going tits-up. Apples and oranges, mon frere! Everything I do is off the radar because there is nothing in the least bit shady about what I do . . . .

My point is not that you are not squeaky clean, etc. My point is that you judging someone legally guilty without knowing the facts is likely the same judgement you would get from a poverty stricken person. I pointing out that both are unfair.

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

. . . Again, right now the appearance is that these guys are guilty until proven innocent. . . . .

Well, that is not how the system works. And, you should be thankful for that because without it people would be shooting what they perceive as sinners right and left

If there was fraud here, and there likely was or at least the case can be made udner RICO (a fairly easy burden) or some other Act, then they will go to jail. Again, most of the crooks in the past decade were convicted. I personally think kCongress should change the law and allow the govt. to seize all assets given again or sold for non fair market value within a year of the fraud.