SYW: A Dud Album

[PenguinHead]

Originally Posted by mylittledemon

I also would rather see them release more albums than tour so much.

Unfortunately, for older bands like Fleetwood Mac...they tend to make more money being on the road than releasing new material... which likely won't sell as much as in their heydays. And like any other aging people, with more time behind them than in front of them, they are looking to secure their nest eggs. So, there is not much incentive, without a strong creative muse (Stevie?), to put out new music.

[Johnny Stew]

I imagine very few people were expecting sales in league with 'The Dance,' and hopefully Warner Brothers really was thrilled with how 'Say You Will' did, but I think many fans, and probably the band members themselves, never expected that it still wouldn't have sold a million copies four years later.

Is that a reasonable expectation? I suppose not. But that's the way it is when you have a reputation for selling millions of albums.

As much as I personally love the album, "Say You Will" didn't seem to create any momentum for Fleetwood Mac, and perhaps if it had had a longer shelf-life, the band members would have been more keen to get back into the studio with each other.

It has to be tough for artists who are used to selling a certain amount of albums, to feel confident as to whether their new music is really connecting with people. The sense that you're selling only to your loyal fanbase and not many others, must be somewhat disconcerting the first couple of times you experience it. Times, and buying habits, have changed though, and artists -- and fans -- have to adjust their expectation levels accordingly. Some already have, while others are still working on it.

[mylittledemon]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

I imagine very few people were expecting sales in league with 'The Dance,' and hopefully Warner Brothers really was thrilled with how 'Say You Will' did, but I think many fans, and probably the band members themselves, never expected that it still wouldn't have sold a million copies four years later.

Is that a reasonable expectation? I suppose not. But that's the way it is when you have a reputation for selling millions of albums.

As much as I personally love the album, "Say You Will" didn't seem to create any momentum for Fleetwood Mac, and perhaps if it had had a longer shelf-life, the band members would have been more keen to get back into the studio with each other.

It has to be tough for artists who are used to selling a certain amount of albums, to feel confident as to whether their new music is really connecting with people. The sense that you're selling only to your loyal fanbase and not many others, must be somewhat disconcerting the first couple of times you experience it. Times, and buying habits, have changed though, and artists -- and fans -- have to adjust their expectation levels accordingly. Some already have, while others are still working on it.

I figured it would at least sell a million records. I think a major radio hit would've helped that. I think the Dance was just different...mainly because of the reunion aspect, and the live footage.

I couldnt agree with you more. I like SYW a lot...but I agree it didnt create any momentum for the band. The tour, however, was more than successful. I dont like the idea of them continuing to tour without putting out records. It just feels like a cash machine at that point, rather than moving forward. Let's not even TALK about the Eagles! haha

[Gailh]

Originally Posted by mylittledemon

I figured it would at least sell a million records. I think a major radio hit would've helped that. I think the Dance was just different...mainly because of the reunion aspect, and the live footage.

I couldnt agree with you more. I like SYW a lot...but I agree it didnt create any momentum for the band. The tour, however, was more than successful. I dont like the idea of them continuing to tour without putting out records. It just feels like a cash machine at that point, rather than moving forward. Let's not even TALK about the Eagles! haha

I think that these days the emphasis has switched from albums being the cash cow to touring bringing in the dosh. In the past a tour was there just to promote an album and it didn't matter whether it made money because increased album sales made up for it. Nowadays with so much music being available to download (and you don't even need to download or buy the whole album) touring has taken over as the money spinner. I'm sure John and Mick appreciate that!

I personally wont go and see them again without a new album (or Christine) unless it looks like we're going to get something new. If they start with The Chain and Mick does his party trick with World Turning that will be a definate no. Fortunately living in the UK I'll get plenty of information as to the set list etc before I have to make decision because they always tour the States first.

Gail

[TrueFaith77]

Say You Will, for me, is practically a return to form: the best album any of the four members have been involved with since Tusk. Is it as great as Tusk or Rumours? No. But, as I told a friend of mine, if I could only have albums as great as Tusk or Rumours in my collection, I'd either have 2 albums or 40 albums, and that's it. For me, Say You Will achieved something extraordinary; by contextualizing Lindsey's Gift of Screws tracks -- each one improved -- with Stevie's new tracks (post-Dance) and tracks from Rumours-era and the 80s, they make meaning grow exponentially (the gift Mac gives these two artists). It achieved two things in tandem: providing catharsis to the era's insensitivity/pain through the resolution of their mythic love affair. It invited the audience to return to ritual. I think every track plays its role (even the mid-album Stevie trilogy, which provides a survey of her entire career and spiritual development in three songs). I have more thoughts, but you get the general idea.

The tragedy of Say You Will is that its making actually provided the experiences that should have set the groundwork for the next album. As is proven by Under the Skin's tracks that seem to speak to Lindsey's relationship with Stevie -- title track, "Shut Us Down" (which should have been the greatest Lindsey/Stevie duet since "Beautiful Child"), "Cast Away Dreams," and that extraordinary Donovan cover. All of these would have benefited from Mac involvement, because the meaning would have changed in relation to Stevie's tracks. Plus the change in Lindsey's musical interest would have been a nice transition for the group, too. I always listen to "Planets of the Universe" or "Sorcerer", wishing that they HAD been saved for a Mac album. Ironically, it's the existence of Say You Will to which the other ends of the decade's B-N trilogy (TISL, SYW, UTS can attribute their special poignance.

Hearts are broken all over again. Let's hope they don't waste more time and begin healing them.

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by TrueFaith77

For me, Say You Will achieved something extraordinary; by contextualizing Lindsey's Gift of Screws tracks -- each one improved -- with Stevie's new tracks (post-Dance) and tracks from Rumours-era and the 80s, they make meaning grow exponentially (the gift Mac gives these two artists).

Your entire post was eloquent. As to the above comment in particular, I would say that lending Stevie's vocals to Lindsey's songs and Lindsey's voice, guitar and production to Stevie's songs could not help but make the album something more than 2 solo projects slapped together. Even the simple process of overdubbing vocals makes it something more, something it wasn't before and something I want to have and analyze for new meaning.

Aside from Stevie's new songs that Johnny Stew mentioned, I also liked Stevie's contribution to Miranda and Lindsey's work on Thrown Down. Given the latter's subject matter, it necessarily says something more with Lindsey on it than it would have with just Stevie, Sharon and Lori.

Call it "Fleetwood Mac" or call it Buckingham Nicks with a "very special" bassist and drummer sitting in. It doesn't matter. What you get from the 4 of them still is quite different than what you get from TISL, Meantime, UTS or any solo project. One is not a substitute for the other.

Sure I'd like them to work together on a new album from the ground up. Lindsey said he would like to do that himself. But original material or not, BN is always going to be a different animal than LB and SN are apart and I want to keep hearing from that hybrid.

There's something fascinating and creative even in the process of melding two solo albums together, that I'd like to explore and experience. Put hydrogen and water together and there's a different element, even if that element is "only" water. Stevie and Lindsey have the same chemistry. It results in something "new" even if it's not the new I'd most prefer. I'd most prefer 5 band members. That's what I dream about at night. But I'll take 4 over no band and no continued growth, history and evolution in the relationship between its remaining members.

Michele

[Sarah]

Originally Posted by TrueFaith77

Plus the change in Lindsey's musical interest would have been a nice transition for the group, too. I always listen to "Planets of the Universe" or "Sorcerer", wishing that they HAD been saved for a Mac album.

Interesting point here.

TISL was a mega letdown for me. Stevie's SYW songs (minus Silver Girl) were pretty much good, but a couple of TISL gems would have been so much better with SYW, I think. Planets, Sorcerer, FFG. Hell, even Candlebright (it's still Nomad to me) would have gone well near the portion of the album with Say Goodbye and Goodbye Baby. I really wish that would have happened, considering that we know Lindsey's played it before; I can't help but wonder what he would do to it. I guess that's a double-edged sword - some fans would probably bitch about an album of old songs that we've all heard in demos.

[Villavic]

Originally Posted by Sarah

I think Fleetwood Mac is probably too much of a brand now for that. Especially since the Rumours lineup had the successful Dance reunion, and Lindsey and Stevie stuck around for SYW. I don't think the world would give new front people a chance... especially in concert, when the pressure is on to sing the Lindsey/Stevie/Christine hits.

.

Yes, that's true. Would you see a Beatles with Paul, Ringo, and 2 new guys? No way. Fleetwood Mac is well known as the Rumours lineup. If they change radically not one but several members, that's another band

[Chrislit18]

Originally Posted by mylittledemon

I figured it would at least sell a million records. I think a major radio hit would've helped that. I think the Dance was just different...mainly because of the reunion aspect, and the live footage.

Agreed. I think that the poor choices they made concerning the album singles was another problem. sure, Peacekeeper and SYW are good songs. I wont deny it. But what was majorly popular in 2003? Rap/R&B [wasnt that the year that Beoncyes solo album came out?], and then the major hit of 50 Cents 'Get Rich', and then of course stuff like Evanessance and Maroon 5 exploded.

Could Peacekeeper really go against something like This Love?
NO. It is not as catchy, therefore-the mainstream will not pick it up. IE Teenagers, the biggest music buyers of America. Plus the fact that these young people are going against artists in thier 50s didnt help.

So what should the album single have been?
I really cant tell you, sorry.

the Catchiest song on there is probably....RTTG. even SYHA would have been a better choice. People love lovesongs. [hence why Christines songs did so well, you cant go wrong with writing about love.] I dont know, while I love this album, and sing most of its songs on a daily basis, I just can't really see any of them tearing up the airwaves. even now. a cool music video would have helped. not just a 'live' preformance of peacekeeper. oh well.
Thrown Down, with an innovative video [not with the band members in focus, remember, today EVERYTHING is about image unfortuanately], released at the right time, yeah it could have done top 40 maybe.
Then of course, the last two tracks would have sucked as singles, people dont want to cry when they listen to the radio [Goodbye Baby does that to me, i dont know about anyone else, and Say Goodbye has the same effect, but I dont cry during that one.]
But you know what, come to think of it, EFO could have been a big hit. everybody loves songs about cheating these days

The fact that it wasnt the entire Rumours line up really screwed them too. I mean sure, Stevie came back, and Lindsey, but its just not the same thing without Chris. Her harmonies were missed on tracks such as Thrown Down, Smile at You, and even Silver Girl.

It is safe to say though, they will NEVER recieve the commercial success they had during the Rumours line up in the 70s-80s ever again. Ok, sure, record with Christine again, but it still wont fix Stevie and Lindseys voices, they defenately arent the same as they were back then, and people do not respond well [it really is a shame how LBs voice has gotten, his voice used to be so beautiful (Oh Diane is my favorite vocal of his BTW)] Stevies deepness to her voice is turning many new fans off. I think the only way to get back to how they once were, would to have a CM song as the lead single, but pick a catchy one.

Say You Will is really a work of art though, but it had no chance against the music industry of today.

[Sarah]

I just have to roll my eyes right now a little bit.

Why would FM even give a damn about competing with Maroon 5 or any of that stuff for radio time? They didn't even bother making a proper video for their singles! They were barely singles at all. And realistically, how much were the members out there talking up the cd? A few appearances come to mind, but really, they just put the thing out there, and 850k people bought it up like that, no additional effort required.

They've sold millions and millions of records. They didn't need to prove anything with SYW except that they were, in Lindsey's Mirage-era words, "still doin' it". They made SYW an artful, respectable album. It's sold reasonably well and made some amount of money for the label and the group Not to mention that they toured the **** out of it for 2 years. Arena after arena. That's the real cha-ching for the band members, anyway.

I think it sucks, quite frankly, that so many people apparently feel like this band needs to be vindicated by radio airplay or other types of exposure and sales to new fans. FM has received a lot of praise over the last 30 years. If someone hasn't heard of them or given them a listen, that is their own damn fault.


That's just my $0.02.

[Chrislit18]

Originally Posted by Sarah

I just have to roll my eyes right now a little bit.

Why would FM even give a damn about competing with Maroon 5 or any of that stuff for radio time? They didn't even bother making a proper video for their singles! They were barely singles at all. And realistically, how much were the members out there talking up the cd? A few appearances come to mind, but really, they just put the thing out there, and 850k people bought it up like that, no additional effort required.

They've sold millions and millions of records. They didn't need to prove anything with SYW except that they were, in Lindsey's Mirage-era words, "still doin' it". They made SYW an artful, respectable album. It's sold reasonably well and made some amount of money for the label and the group Not to mention that they toured the **** out of it for 2 years. Arena after arena. That's the real cha-ching for the band members, anyway.

I think it sucks, quite frankly, that so many people apparently feel like this band needs to be vindicated by radio airplay or other types of exposure and sales to new fans. FM has received a lot of praise over the last 30 years. If someone hasn't heard of them or given them a listen, that is their own damn fault.


That's just my $0.02.

The thing is, I dont feel that way either about radio play. Id RATHER that they didnt get all mainstream again, then people would only like them because they're 'popular' not because the music is good

Im just saying, they had a chance to get mainstream success again, and didnt take it. im just pointing out the fact that they could have went that way.

I love Say You Will, at this point, probably more than Rumours [shocker eh?]. I think people are stupid for overlooking this album, Mirage too. Mirage is probably my favorite album of thiers at this moment in time. but just because of one or two 'alright' songs, its 'not as good' as Rumours [TBT, I prefer the 'stinkers' on Mirage to Gold Dust Woman and Oh Daddy].

Im sure that all FM wanted to do with SYW was put out thier art, and just do appaerences to promote it here an there. and by no means am I saying it is a failure, 850.000 albums is amazing, especailly for a band who went through as much ***** as FM did concerning the line up changes, and the time between studio albums with S/L.

I agree with your comments Sarah, 100% about people feeling that what is on the radio is popular, and in no means was I trying to say that SYW would have been better had it sold more, I was just stating what could have happened had it have some more radio play.

[mylittledemon]

Originally Posted by Chrislit18

The thing is, I dont feel that way either about radio play. Id RATHER that they didnt get all mainstream again, then people would only like them because they're 'popular' not because the music is good

But...but...Rumours...and Tusk...and the white album...Tango in the Night...and even Mirage to a certain degree were all "mainstream" albums. And the music was good. Fleetwood Mac IS a mainstream band. I would say so, anyway. I'm agreeing with you in the sense that they shouldnt change their sound, or write "singles" just to sell records...but Fleetwood Mac has done that regardless.

[kathy1]

i kind of like the album. i don't listen to it much.

[Chrislit18]

Originally Posted by mylittledemon

But...but...Rumours...and Tusk...and the white album...Tango in the Night...and even Mirage to a certain degree were all "mainstream" albums. And the music was good. Fleetwood Mac IS a mainstream band. I would say so, anyway. I'm agreeing with you in the sense that they shouldnt change their sound, or write "singles" just to sell records...but Fleetwood Mac has done that regardless.

right, but I am just saying, that these days, the only reason that kids listen to music is that its on the radio a lot. not because it is good.

Fleetwood Mac was probably THE mainstream band of the late 1970s. there is no denying that. But back then at least people didn't judge music entirely on popularity [look at Jimi Hendrix, he only had like 1 top 40 hit, the 'All Along the Watchtower' (well, I think thats the title of it, its the Bob Dylan cover), but look how many people thought he was a great muscian.]

But FM should not go mainstream again, I'm sorry, but I dont want to hear everyone at school talk about them just because theyre popular. [Well, I dont think I helped that by writing a music review on Rumours for my school newspaper, but its not like theyre all gonna go out and buy the album, ya know?]

I hope that clarifies things. I dont want to make it seem like they were NEVER mainstream, god no. Just these days, they are better off just doing what they do best, making amazing music, regardless of popularity.

[buckymcnix]

Originally Posted by mylittledemon

and Tusk...were all "mainstream" albums. .

tusk was mainstream??