The Ledge

Go Back   The Ledge > Main Forums > Chit Chat
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read


Make the Ads Go Away! Click here.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #16  
Old 04-28-2007, 06:22 PM
irishgrl's Avatar
irishgrl irishgrl is offline
Addicted Ledgie
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: in the past
Posts: 7,189
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bretonbanquet View Post
That's just crap
how so??? please elaborate.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 04-28-2007, 06:23 PM
carrie721's Avatar
carrie721 carrie721 is offline
Addicted Ledgie
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: the north coast of OH
Posts: 11,312
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeschmike View Post
Agreed.

Speaking of which, the $6-7/per gallon price in Europe is figured in adjusted US red white and blue dollars.
i thought our dollars were green
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 04-28-2007, 06:24 PM
mikeschmike mikeschmike is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,427
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by carrie721 View Post
i thought our dollars were green
Somebody BAN this terrorist!

*runs to local Homeland Security branch*
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 04-28-2007, 06:25 PM
irishgrl's Avatar
irishgrl irishgrl is offline
Addicted Ledgie
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: in the past
Posts: 7,189
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeschmike View Post
Agreed.

Speaking of which, the $6-7/per gallon price in Europe is figured in adjusted US red white and blue dollars.
if true, then thats truly heinous. However, It makes my blood boil when Chevron and other Oil Cartels gouge consumers just to make a profit. I mean, in this country they're supposed to be regulated. There are supposed to be safeguards. I guess they're taking a nap.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 04-28-2007, 06:26 PM
bretonbanquet's Avatar
bretonbanquet bretonbanquet is offline
Addicted Ledgie
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 1,950
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by irishgrl View Post
how so??? please elaborate.
You said our monetary systems are different. Which is relevant how? Our fuel costs over $7 a US gallon - in your money. Theres your fair comparison. Well over twice what you guys pay. If we earned well over twice what you earn, then fair enough, but we don't.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 04-28-2007, 06:27 PM
carrie721's Avatar
carrie721 carrie721 is offline
Addicted Ledgie
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: the north coast of OH
Posts: 11,312
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeschmike View Post
Somebody BAN this terrorist!

*runs to local Homeland Security branch*


i never should've told my name was carrie bin laden.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 04-28-2007, 06:27 PM
Gypsy-Rhiannon's Avatar
Gypsy-Rhiannon Gypsy-Rhiannon is offline
Addicted Ledgie
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 6,012
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by irishgrl View Post
if true, then thats truly heinous.
It is true
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 04-28-2007, 06:27 PM
irishgrl's Avatar
irishgrl irishgrl is offline
Addicted Ledgie
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: in the past
Posts: 7,189
Default

also: I think it IS significant that the dollar is only worth about HALF of the British Pound Sterling, which (as far as I can tell) makes our basic outlay on either side of the pond about the same. If Europe is paying twice as much but their money is twice as valuable, then effectively we are paying the same.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 04-28-2007, 06:28 PM
irishgrl's Avatar
irishgrl irishgrl is offline
Addicted Ledgie
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: in the past
Posts: 7,189
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bretonbanquet View Post
You said our monetary systems are different. Which is relevant how? Our fuel costs over $7 a US gallon - in your money. Theres your fair comparison. Well over twice what you guys pay. If we earned well over twice what you earn, then fair enough, but we don't.
I think it would be helpful to see a graphic.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 04-28-2007, 06:31 PM
mikeschmike mikeschmike is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,427
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by irishgrl View Post
also: I think it IS significant that the dollar is only worth about HALF of the British Pound Sterling, which (as far as I can tell) makes our basic outlay on either side of the pond about the same. If Europe is paying twice as much but their money is twice as valuable, then effectively we are paying the same.
That doesn't really effect the individual consumer. Perhaps US and UK petroleum buyers are paying the same, but it doesn't really "trickle down" to the guy at the pump.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 04-28-2007, 06:32 PM
estranged4life's Avatar
estranged4life estranged4life is offline
Addicted Ledgie
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Mannford, OK
Posts: 13,925
Cool Well...

gas is $2.75 a gallon here, and ya know what, who cares....

I knew the prices would climb, and since we have no choice, we still have to drive (Well Deb does actually) an average 900 miles every 2 weeks for work.

We dont bitch about it - we just accept it (Our new used car, a 2000 Ford Escort, gets the same gas milage as the Nissan did, about 35 miles a gallon)
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 04-28-2007, 06:34 PM
irishgrl's Avatar
irishgrl irishgrl is offline
Addicted Ledgie
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: in the past
Posts: 7,189
Default

I found an old article (or at least only partially true since CA is paying well over $3/gal at the pump).....anyway, I can see why Europe is hurting....that really sucks you guys..

Quote:
Gas prices too high? Try Europe.
$7 a gallon? That's what drivers in Amsterdam pay. But Europeans have long adapted to high prices.
By Peter Ford | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor
PARIS – When Guy Colombier pulls his economy car up to a Paris pump, he allows himself just 15 Euros ($18) worth of gas - barely enough for three gallons. Since prices started rising rapidly earlier this year, says Mr. Colombier, a printing press worker, "I drive a lot more slowly ... and I'm looking for a place to live closer to where I work."

Colombier's pain is shared by drivers all over Europe, where fuel prices are the highest in the world: a gallon of gas in Amsterdam now costs $7.13, compared with just $2.61 in America. The contrast in prices and environmental policies - and the dramatically different behaviors they inspire - signals a widening transatlantic energy gap. And it raises the question: Does Europe offer America a glimpse of its future?
Reporters on
the Job
The Monitor gives the story behind the story.

Get all the Monitor's headlines by e-mail.
Subscribe for free.
E-mail this story
Write a letter to the Editor
Printer-friendly version
Permission to reprint/republish
del.icio.us
[ What's this? ]
digg
[ What's this? ]

Indeed, while Europeans have learned to cope with expensive fuel (mostly due to taxes), there's scant evidence yet that US drivers are adopting their conservation tactics.

"Societies adjust over decades to higher fuel prices," says Jos Dings, head of Transport and Energy, a coalition of European environmental NGOs. "They find many mechanisms."

Chief among them, say experts, is the habit of driving smaller and more fuel-efficient cars. While the average light duty vehicle on US highways gets 21.6 miles per gallon (m.p.g.), according to a study by the Paris based International Energy Agency (IEA), in Paris, its European counterpart manages 32.1 m.p.g.

"European consumers are very sensitive to fuel economy and sophisticated about engine options," says Lew Fulton, a transport analyst with the United Nations Environment Program (UNEP). "European car magazines are full of comparisons of fuel costs over the life of a vehicle."

Europe's cars: 40 percent are diesel

That approach has given a special boost to diesel cars, which make up more than 40 percent of European car sales, compared with just 4 percent in the US.

Just ahead of Colombier in the line at the gas station Thursday was Nicole Marie, a high school teacher, who was using her husband's diesel Audi, rather than her own gasoline-powered car, to take her daughter to Normandy for a final week of vacation by the sea.

"I only use my car in town," she says. "We bought a diesel car deliberately because it is cheaper to run."

That is partly because the French government encourages the use of more- efficient diesel fuel by taxing it less heavily. Only in four European countries is diesel more expensive than gasoline, the way it is in America.

But efficiency alone does not explain the huge disparity between fuel-use figures on either side of the Atlantic: European per capita consumption of gas and diesel stood at 286 liters a year in 2001, compared to 1,624 in the US, according to IEA figures.

The nature of cities plays a role, too. "America has built its entire society around the car, which enabled suburbs," points out Mr. Dings. "European cities have denser centers where cars are often not practical."

In Paris, for example, about half the trips people make are by foot, by bicycle, or on public transport, says UNEP's Mr. Fulton. In America, that figure is more like 20 percent.

Impact of fuel tax

"The single most effective measure" that has brought down motorists' fuel use in Europe, however, is taxation, says Dings.

On average, 60 percent of the price European drivers pay at the pump goes to their governments in taxes.

In Britain, the government takes 75 percent, and raises taxes by 5 percent above inflation every year (though it has forgone this year's rise in view of rocketing oil prices, and the French government has promised tax rebates this year to taxi drivers, truckers, fishermen, and others who depend heavily on gasoline.) On August 8, for example, the price of gas in the US, without taxes, would be $2.17, instead of $2.56; in Britain, it would be $1.97, instead of $6.06.

"There is really good evidence that higher prices reduce traffic," says Stephen Glaister, a professor of transportation at London's Imperial College. "If fuel prices go up 10 percent ... fuel consumed goes down by about 7 percent, as people start to use fuel more efficiently, not accelerating so aggressively and switching to more fuel-efficient cars. It does change people's behavior."

The US authorities, however, "are unwilling to use resource price as part of their strategy" to conserve oil, says Lee Schipper, head of transportation research at the Washington-based World Resources Institute, an environmental think tank.

"The biggest hole in our policy today is fuel taxation," he adds. "Tax increases are something Americans should do but don't know how to do, and I wonder if they will ever be able to.

"Consumers want muscle cars, manufacturers say they make what the consumer wants, and the government panders to both constituencies," Mr. Schipper continues. "It's a vicious cycle."

Story continues below
(Photograph)
EASY DOES IT: An attendant pumped gasoline in downtown Milan, Italy, earlier this month. In many European cities, gas costs more than twice as much as in America.
ANTONIO CALANNI/AP

Europeans may drive smaller cars, but there are few signs that the current record gas prices are making them drive less.

Germans who live close to the Czech Republic can drive across the border to take advantage of the lowest prices in Europe, but most people "cannot react to [the prices] because they still need to drive a lot," says Jürgen Albrecht, an official with Germany's largest auto club, the ADAC. "I can't say I'm not going to drive the 50 kilometers [31 miles] to work because of the high gas prices. It doesn't work that way."

"Most people have no alternative, particularly those who live in rural areas," says Paul Hodgson of the RAC, the British motoring association. "A lot of motorists tell us that if there was a decent and affordable public transport system they would use that ... but we are still a long way from having an alternative."

Prices vary widely across Europe. The Greeks, for example, are getting off comparatively lightly, with just $4.32 a gallon. But they're not exactly celebrating.

On the Greek isles, where almost everything comes in by boat, residents are hit even harder by rising fuel prices. "Whatever you do, it all comes back to gasoline," huffs Dimitra Vogiatzi, who sells produce on the far-flung island of Patmos, as she slams closed her massive ledger.

Ms. Vogiatzi has been obliged to raise her prices, and more and more of her customers are buying on credit, she complains. "Imagine if we need a doctor, or someone has to have a baby," she adds. "All the boat fares, coming and going - isn't that gasoline?"



' There is really good evidence that higher prices reduce traffic.'

Stephen Glaister, a professor of transportation at London's Imperial College



Related stories:
08/16/05
As gasoline prices rise, businesses get creative
07/22/05
As prices climb, more drivers flee pumps without paying
05/27/05
Why Americans are on the road again



Though shipping costs in the Aegean may remain high, European Union regulations are forcing vehicle manufacturers to make their products even more efficient than they already are.

Though their primary motivation is to reduce CO2 emissions, in line with targets set by the Kyoto Protocol, bio-fuel and hybrid cars are still so rare that increased fuel efficiency is the fastest route to lower emissions, says Dolf Gielen, an expert at the IEA.

CO2 emissions from new European cars fell by 12 percent from 1995 to 2003, according to Mr. Gielen, and manufacturers have voluntarily pledged to reduce them by a further 14 per cent by 2008, he adds.

European governments are proposing tax breaks to encourage motorists to take advantage of these possibilities. Belgian drivers who buy a low-emissions vehicle get a 15 percent price rebate; Spain cuts $865 from the cost of registering a car if it replaces a car using leaded gas more than 10 years old; Hungary waives registration tax for hybrid cars.

End of the road for SUVs?

Though US vehicles' fuel efficiency has improved greatly over the past 30 years, overall consumption has risen in the past decade because consumers and manufacturers have used the leeway offered by the new technology to buy and build bigger and more powerful vehicles, experts say.

Environmentalists wonder whether the current price spike in gas prices might lead to a lasting change in US behavior. "The exciting thing now is that we are almost at the real high point of prices in 1981," says Mr. Schipper. "We'll see if American manufacturers, authorities, and drivers realize that these prices may now be locked in."

"Sales of big SUVs have been dropping in the last few months," points out Fulton. "We are now at the point where people believe this is real and they are reacting. The longer it goes on, the more they will react."

• Mark Rice-Oxley in London, Andreas Tzortzis in Berlin, and John Thorne in Patmos contributed to this article.
(Graphic)
SOURCE: AN AND SAUER, 2004, FOR THE PEW CENTER ON GLOBAL CLIMATE CHANGE; SCOTT WALLACE - STAFF
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 04-28-2007, 06:35 PM
bretonbanquet's Avatar
bretonbanquet bretonbanquet is offline
Addicted Ledgie
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 1,950
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by irishgrl View Post
also: I think it IS significant that the dollar is only worth about HALF of the British Pound Sterling, which (as far as I can tell) makes our basic outlay on either side of the pond about the same. If Europe is paying twice as much but their money is twice as valuable, then effectively we are paying the same.
That woud be true if we earned twice what you guys earn. But we don't, not anything like it. Don't you see that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by irishgrl View Post
I think it would be helpful to see a graphic.
I'm fresh out of graphics
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 04-28-2007, 06:35 PM
irishgrl's Avatar
irishgrl irishgrl is offline
Addicted Ledgie
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: in the past
Posts: 7,189
Default

here's another...

Quote:
Europe, With Other Woes, Takes Gas Prices in Stride

* Sign In to E-Mail This
* Printer-Friendly
* Single-Page
* Reprints
* Save Article

Article Tools Sponsored By
By MARK LANDLER and CARTER DOUGHERTY
Published: September 1, 2005

FRANKFURT, Aug. 31 - Tiziano Colombo, an engineer from Milan, hit the road this summer, driving with his wife and in-laws in a rented van through Austria, Germany, Belgium, Holland and France.
Skip to next paragraph
Agence France-Presse - Getty Images

A driver fills his tank in France, where the base price of gasoline is higher than in the United States.

With oil prices rising during his two-week vacation, Mr. Colombo spent $670 on diesel to fill his Ford Transit. By his arithmetic, it was still cheaper than buying train tickets for four people. The cost of traveling by car would have to nearly double, he said, before he would consider switching.

"The car is freedom, and freedom is what we were after," Mr. Colombo, 53, said, sounding like an American. "Obviously, if I was doing this trip by myself, you'd have a hard time justifying the extra cost."

Soaring oil prices have begun to rattle Europeans, just as they have Americans, with the disruption of oil production in the United States by Hurricane Katrina driving gasoline prices in Europe to new records as well.

But the reaction of Europeans has been less dramatic because of the higher base price of fuel, the strength of the euro against the dollar and Europe's three-decade search for alternatives to fossil fuels, which has made it a bit less vulnerable to spikes in the price of crude oil.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 04-28-2007, 06:36 PM
DrummerDeanna DrummerDeanna is offline
Addicted Ledgie
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 10,499
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gypsy-Rhiannon View Post
It is true
I want proof. I'm going to need to see some credit card/debit card reciepts, Pip

Gas prices, they're going to gouge us this summer for sure...but there's nothing we can do but continue to take it in the ass...or buy a bike...but some people live in places where biking everywhere is not feasible..hmm...like HERE! Horrible public tranport and sprawling...no bike.

And I'm sorry..pet peeve alert...Ethan it rIdiculous, not rediculous. I just thought I'd let you know.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Peter Green - In The Skies - Expanded Edition [New CD] Bonus Tracks, Expanded Ve picture

Peter Green - In The Skies - Expanded Edition [New CD] Bonus Tracks, Expanded Ve

$17.10



Alexander to Actium The Historical Evolution of the Hellenistic Age Peter Green picture

Alexander to Actium The Historical Evolution of the Hellenistic Age Peter Green

$40.79



Anne of Green Gables: The Ultimate Collection Soundtrack - 4 CDs [Audio CD] picture

Anne of Green Gables: The Ultimate Collection Soundtrack - 4 CDs [Audio CD]

$45.96



Legend by Peter Green (CD, 1991) Castle Communications CHC 7020 Stereo picture

Legend by Peter Green (CD, 1991) Castle Communications CHC 7020 Stereo

$12.00



Whatcha Gonna Do? by Peter Green (CD, 1991) Blues, Castle CHC 7017 picture

Whatcha Gonna Do? by Peter Green (CD, 1991) Blues, Castle CHC 7017

$12.00




All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:34 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2026, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
© 1995-2003 Martin and Lisa Adelson, All Rights Reserved