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02-01-2006, 03:51 PM
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 ) created the vast majority of those jobs either directly or indirectly. For example, GM was able to produce more middle level cars because the guy selling the copier paper to these companies was doing better and could afford one, etc. So, it had a huge effect on the economy. Same with Enron and MCI and the other fraud companies.I will say this though, the lowering of the interest rates spawned a housing boom that allowed the economy in a relative manner to escape the carnage that could have resulted from the essentially overnight disintegration of the fraud wealth and the tech IPO boom wealth. In fact, though it has slowed, the housing market is still keeping the economy afloat and that is despite several rate hikes. The caveat there is creative financing (interest only loans, 125% loans, etc. ) could cause that market to burst, but they have not so far. In the end, Clinton/Greenspan did some great things with the economy - but much of the often touted good times were due to the IPO and the fraud issues, which occured during that time period. Will the Bush economy see a recovery in jobs? I tend to doubt it becuase one logical explanation for the realtive lack of hiring is that yes, the companies are making more money, but the fuel costs are double and that precludes taking on more employees. I think this is a true statement, though I am sure greed factors in there somewhere.
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02-02-2006, 12:51 PM
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#3
02-02-2006, 01:26 PM
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As for the haves and have nots and the little and big guys - they all suffered and I have made no contrary statement as much as you would like to paint me into that corner.
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save the cheerleader - save the world
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#4
02-02-2006, 01:34 PM
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Back on point:
The Capitol's Tempest in a T-Shirt Chief Apologizes for Ejections at State of Union By Petula Dvorak Washington Post Staff Writer Thursday, February 2, 2006; A01 Two T-shirts -- one black, the other heather gray -- spotted in the House gallery the night of the president's State of the Union speech caused a major ruckus on Capitol Hill. It spilled into yesterday and came complete with impassioned political speeches, strident questions about rights being trampled, threats of lawsuits and a hat-in-hand apology from the U.S. Capitol Police chief. The black shirt with white letters was worn by celebrated war protester Cindy Sheehan; the white letters read: "2,245 Dead. How Many More?" Beverly Young, the wife of a Republican congressman, sported a heather gray top with red, white and blue letters saying, "Support the Troops." The wearers were hustled out of the House gallery by Capitol police who said the shirts amounted to protesting. Late yesterday, after C.W. Bill Young (R-Fla.) had taken to the floor with an impassioned speech and his wife's T-shirt held aloft, Capitol Police Chief Terrance W. Gainer showed up at his office to apologize. Gainer said he also would ask that charges against Sheehan -- she was arrested; Beverly Young left before it came to that -- be dropped. "It was," he said, "a good-faith mistake by officers operating under poor direction." After a night of fingerprinting and booking and lockup, Sheehan departed the city. But Young had not, and her response as she enjoyed hugs from supporters yesterday after the apology was to call Gainer "an idiot." Witnesses said her words for him were much saltier the night before. The drama in cotton unfolded when Sheehan, who received a spectator ticket from Rep. Lynn C. Woolsey (D-Calif.), took her seat and unzipped her jacket, revealing her antiwar message. Sheehan's son, Casey, was a soldier who was killed in Iraq in 2004. A Capitol Police officer spotted the words, pointed to her and yelled, "Protester!" Sheehan said. "He then ran over to me, hauled me out of my seat, and roughly . . . shoved me up the stairs," she said, adding that she was handcuffed, taken away, fingerprinted and booked. That was before the speech. About 45 minutes into the speech, an officer asked Beverly Young to step outside, where he told her: "We consider you a protester" because of her shirt, she said. She said she angrily challenged officers to explain what law she had violated, and they threatened arrest. She said an officer mentioned that Sheehan was removed earlier and therefore "it was kind of only fair" that she be asked to leave, too. "They publicly humiliated me," Young told reporters. "They insulted our troops." When the congressman heard what had happened to his wife, he summoned Gainer to his office and called Karl Rove, the president's deputy chief of staff. "When your wife is insulted and embarrassed, you do tend to get a little offended," Young said yesterday, explaining his upbraiding of Gainer that night and his fervent speech on the House floor yesterday morning, when he waved the shirt and bellowed about his wife's ejection: "Shame! Shame!" Young said he wouldn't be so mad if it were just Sheehan. "I totally disagree with everything she stands for," he said. But by removing his wife, Gainer's officers clearly "acted precipitously," Young said. Attorneys on Sheehan's side and attorneys for Young pored over case law yesterday, trying to find precedent for the ejection. Gainer's office didn't respond to inquiries until after 5 p.m., when he walked into Young's office and apologized. "We've asked the U.S. attorney's office to drop the charge against Sheehan," Gainer said later. "Our interactions both with her and Beverly Young were inappropriate." He said he will clarify rules about disruption to remind officers that "simply having a T-shirt on" does not constitute lawbreaking. After the mea culpa, Beverly Young, in her T-shirt again, was not forgiving, calling Gainer "an idiot" who should be replaced. Her husband said he doesn't want Gainer fired, but when asked if he might take legal action, he said, "I'm taking it one step at a time." Staff writer Charles Babington contributed to this report. © 2006 The Washington Post Company
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save the cheerleader - save the world
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#6
02-02-2006, 01:56 PM
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#7
02-02-2006, 02:03 PM
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Interestingly, it sounds like the wife was far more of a hellion than CS and the wife should have been arrested as well - if either should have at all.
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save the cheerleader - save the world
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#8
02-02-2006, 02:10 PM
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~Suzy
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#9
02-02-2006, 03:32 PM
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As to her husbands comments....typical. Kelly 
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#10
02-02-2006, 03:52 PM
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My only point, contrary to what you assert, is that I believe we experience a good economy when the little guy experiences boom times. Big companies experience boom times no matter WHAT goes on for Joe America.......witness Exxon's recent profit headlines... by the way, Im not painting you into anything. Im just saying that you look at certain indicators and you think America is doing well. My indicator is what it costs to LIVE and how much I EARN and how much TAXES I pay and how every year since Bush took office, prices go up, but services go down, and no one's gettin' fat, 'cept Mama Cass...........(to coin a phrase....) Last edited by irishgrl; 02-02-2006 at 03:57 PM..
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#11
02-02-2006, 04:00 PM
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 - Enron was in Houston, but it effected all 50 states, look at your example of California - you don't think people lost jobs because of that. Plus, MCI was in MS and FL - and all the IPO's, which I submit caused more carnage than the fraud, were all over the country, though Claifornia seemingly had a larger share. Again, when 10's of thousands of employees all over the country are no longer buying cars and cutting back on buying things, going out to dinner, etc. - that effects the retail/manufacturing sector and then those effected in those sectors are then forced to cut back.As for Clinton, once again, when trillions of new wealth are created on an unstable platform, when that platform gives way, those trillions and more are lost and that is exactly what happened with the Clinton economy. Are you actually suggesting that that loss of trillions had no significant effect because the economy was strong enough to withstand that loss. If you think that, then I suggest Economics 101
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save the cheerleader - save the world Last edited by strandinthewind; 02-02-2006 at 04:05 PM..
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#12
02-02-2006, 04:01 PM
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save the cheerleader - save the world
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#13
02-02-2006, 04:12 PM
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#14
02-02-2006, 04:16 PM
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Again, the money you got was made in a market based on phantom wealth - all of it and even if you never played the market, etc. That money was in some way touched, and I submit significantly, by the relatively instantaneous creation of trillions of dollars in new wealth. The economy must act as one - it cannot operate in a mutually exclusive fashion. In other words, when the markets lose something like a third or more of overal value, the economy is goinf to tank and that effects everyone. But, if you want to think that staggering loss had no effect whatsoever on you, go right on ahead.
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save the cheerleader - save the world Last edited by strandinthewind; 02-02-2006 at 04:21 PM..
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#15
02-02-2006, 08:30 PM
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Public Policy Institute Compares Bush/Clinton economies.
The New Economy
New Economy Performance PPI | Front & Center | October 18, 2004 Bush vs. Clinton: An Economic Performance Index By Robert D. Atkinson and Julie Hutto According to public opinion polls, most Americans feel the U.S. economy has been moving in the wrong direction. Indeed, an analysis of several important economic indicators shows they're right. In apples-to-apples comparisons of annualized data, these indicators of the country's economic well-being show mostly negative change during President George W. Bush's administration, compared to mostly positive change during President Bill Clinton's administration. Presidents obviously do not control everything that happens on their watch. But it is fair -- and entirely appropriate -- to judge how they play the economic hands they are dealt. Bush's economic policies have diverged dramatically from Clinton's, and PPI believes the disparities in economic outcomes under each administration are attributable at least in part to those policy choices. This chart compares economic performance under the two administrations on a number of especially important fronts:  [Download chart as PDF] Methodology This index provides a broad view of the economy over the last 12 years by focusing on: (1) things that effect people's everyday lives, such as health insurance and homeownership; (2) measures of economic outcomes and performance, rather than inputs or intermediate variables like inflation rates; (3) percentage changes, rather than total changes in such things as the number of jobs or the dollar value of per capita gross domestic product (GDP); and (4) average annual changes -- to account for the fact that Clinton was in office for eight years, and Bush has been in office for three and a half.1 For the most part, the numbers in the chart correspond to the annual compounded rates of progress for each indicator.2 The indicators have also been inverted in some cases, so that positive scores represent moves in the right direction, and negative scores represent moves in the wrong direction. For example, poverty declined by an average of 2.29 percent in the Clinton years (a move in the right direction), and it grew by 4.33 percent annually in the Bush years (a move in the wrong direction). To make the decline a positive number and the growth a negative number, we have changed the indicator to poverty reduction. Thus, Clinton's score is plus 2.29 percent, and Bush's is minus 4.33 percent.3 What the Indicators Mean: Our Fiscal Future * Debt Reduction Relative to GDP4 The national debt is the net amount of debt held by the federal government ($3.9 trillion in 2003).5 It increased under both administrations (in today's dollars). But under Clinton the debt rose more slowly and GDP rose faster than under Bush. The result is that the ratio of debt to GDP went down an average of 3.89 percent per year during the Clinton years, but has gone up an average of 0.94 percent per year during the Bush years. * Trade Deficit Reduction Relative to GDP6 The trade deficit increased during both administrations. It increased by 0.52 percent of GDP per year under Clinton and by 0.37 percent per year under Bush.7 This is one of two indicators where economic performance under Bush appears to be better than it was during the Clinton administration. But underneath that data is a less flattering story for the Bush years. The trade deficit grew at the rate it did under Clinton for two main reasons: because the first Bush Administration's recession had cut imports to an artificially low level, and because the economy was expanding rapidly. People were confident, so they were buying a lot of imported goods. Businesses were growing, too, so U.S. factories were importing materials to manufacture their products. Throughout this period, export growth was very strong. In the Bush years, the trade deficit has been a product of a different, and less healthy dynamic: U.S. exports have dipped dramatically relative to imports. Employment * Jobs8 One of the most important measures of economic well-being is the number of people with jobs. The number of jobs in the economy increased 2.38 percent per year under Clinton, but it has decreased 0.17 percent per year under Bush.9 While it's clear that the economic downturn in 2001 was not Bush's fault, the sluggishness of the recovery is unprecedented in the period since the federal government began issuing detailed employment reports in the 1940s. There have been 1.7 million jobs created since September 2003, which may sound like a lot, but that number falls short of the 1.8 million jobs that must be created per year just to match population growth, and it falls far below the 3.7 million jobs that the administration predicted would be created when the president signed his 2003 tax cut into law.10 This slow job growth is largely attributable to both the failure of the administration's fiscal policies (which targeted tax cuts to stimulate savings rather than spending) and the failure of its trade policies (which have done a poor job of opening foreign markets to spur export growth, and have not created the conditions for an orderly decline in the value of the dollar, which would have helped ease the trade imbalance).11 * Full-time vs. Part-time Jobs12 The change in the number of jobs does not provide a complete picture of employment in the U.S. economy. Not only did the Clinton years produce many more jobs than the Bush years have, but they also produced more full-time jobs compared to part-time jobs. This is an important indicator because in an economic slowdown many displaced and new workers resort to part-time work as a second-choice option. Granted, some people might prefer part-time work because they have children or attend school. But, overall, a decrease in the ratio of full-time to part-time jobs implies that a greater share of workers have less stable work with fewer benefits. The ratio of full-time to part-time work rose under Clinton by 0.11 percent per year, but it has decreased at an annual rate of 1.67 percent since the beginning of 2001. In fact, the ratio of full-time to part-time jobs has not only reversed direction, but as of September 2004 it has fallen below what it was before Clinton took office. * Jobs with Good Wages The economic well-being of American workers is determined not only by whether they have jobs -- ideally full-time jobs with benefits -- but also by how well their jobs pay. This indicator is a weighted index based on the change in the number of jobs in different income quintiles under Clinton and Bush.13 A positive value represents job growth biased toward higher paying jobs, which reflects an upwardly mobile economy. A negative value represents job growth biased toward lower-paying jobs, which reflects a more downwardly mobile economy. The score of 4.70 during the Clinton administration means that the economy produced significantly more jobs in high-wage quintiles than in the low-wage quintiles. In contrast, the score of -1.0 during the Bush administration substantiates reports that new jobs created under Bush have generally paid worse than the jobs that have been lost. For example, from 2000 to 2003, the economy added 540,820 jobs in the lowest-wage quintile. Meanwhile, 451,440 jobs were lost in the middle quintile and 357,900 jobs were lost in the two highest quintiles.14 * Americans with Health Insurance15 Since most working Americans with health insurance get it through work, changes in the share of Americans who have health insurance is another indication of the quality of jobs in the economy. Under the Clinton administration, the share of Americans covered by health insurance went up 0.12 percent annually. Under Bush, there has been a 0.55 percent yearly decrease. Even more striking is that 5 million more Americans were without health insurance in 2003 than in 2000 and 3.8 million fewer Americans had employment-based health insurance.16 Incomes * Productivity17 Productivity measures the amount of economic output that each hour of work produces. It is an important indicator of economic performance because high rates of productivity traditionally correlate with strong growth in living standards. The most accurate measure of productivity covers non-farm businesses. During the Clinton administration non-farm business productivity grew 1.83 percent per year. During the Bush administration, it grew by an average of 3.76 percent per year. This is one of the only bright spots in a period of otherwise lackluster economic performance, and it is a measure that suggests hope for the economy in the coming years. But it is important to note that the late 1990s saw both productivity growth and job growth, producing a double benefit for the economy. During the Bush years, productivity has grown while jobs have not. Whether the nation can maintain the robust levels of productivity growth we have enjoyed since 1996 depends in large part on whether we put in place the right policies, including investments in research and development, and the skills of the workforce; promotion of the digital economy, including high-speed broadband deployment; and fiscal discipline to keep interest rates low.18 * Per Capita GDP19 Simply comparing the annual growth of GDP under each administration would be misleading, because the population continues to grow. Per capita GDP -- in other words, how much output there is each year relative to the total population -- is a more accurate measure. While per capita GDP rose 2.42 percent under Clinton, it has risen just 1.62 percent per year during the Bush presidency. In large part, this is because fewer people are working. * Median Household Income20 Median household income is the best measure of American families' well-being because it shows the true economic mid-point of the population. By definition, half of all households make more than the median, and half make less. (Average household income figures are bad measures of overall well-being, because a small percentage of very rich families can skew the picture, making everyone appear to be richer than they are.) Median household income has fallen an average of 1.15 percent per year under Bush. It rose an average of 1.65 percent per year under Clinton. * Poverty Reduction21 Poverty statistics are telling indicators of the country's economic health. The number of Americans below the poverty line fell 2.29 percent annually in the Clinton years, but has since gone up 4.33 percent annually in the Bush years. * Homeownership22 No economic indicator can embody the American dream in quite the same way as homeownership. Indeed, one of the successes that President Bush frequently points to under his watch is the increase in homeownership. But while the home ownership rate has increased 0.37 percent per year during the Bush administration, that is a slowdown compared to the average increases of 1.94 percent during the Clinton administration. Endnotes: 1 Most of the indicators in this index do not include 2004 data, since the data are not yet available. The three exceptions are in the number of jobs, the ratio of full-time to part-time jobs, and per capita GDP. 2 The indicators for jobs with good wages and the ratio of the trade deficit to GDP are not annualized in the same way as the others. (See explanations below.) 3 To determine the average annual growth in each indicator, PPI first calculated percentage change from 1992 to 2000 for Clinton and for 2000 to 2003 for Bush and then derived the percentage change per year on a compounded rate basis. 4 National debt figures are from the Congressional Budget Office, "The Budget and Economic Outlook: Fiscal Years 2005-2014," January 26, 2004: http://www.cbo.gov/showdoc.cfm?index...ence=0#table11. GDP numbers are from the Bureau of Economic Analysis: http://www.bea.gov/bea/dn/gdplev.xls 5 This measure of debt is the most accurate figure because it is not skewed by government programs with their own sources of funding, such as Social Security and Unemployment Insurance. 6 U.S. Census Bureau, Foreign Trade Division, "U.S. Trade in Goods and Services - Balance of Payments (BOP) basis", http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/ statistics/historical/gands.pdf 7 Average yearly change in the trade deficit divided by average GDP in each administration. 8 Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS), Current Employment Statistics, http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/surveymost?ce 9 The index includes the most recent jobs numbers available (September 2004) from BLS. 10 "Strengthening America's Economy: The President's Jobs and Growth Proposals," Council of Economic Advisers, February 4, 2003, http://www.whitehouse.gov/cea/ cea_growth_package_macroeconomic_effects.pdf 11 PPI and others have estimated that approximately 1.2 million jobs have been lost due to negative trends in exports combined with rapid growth in imports of labor-intensive products. See Robert D. Atkinson, "Understanding the Offshoring Challenge," Progressive Policy Institute, May 2004: http://www.ppionline.org/ppi_ci.cfm? knlgAreaID=107&subsecID=123&contentID=252655 12 BLS, Current Population Survey (series reports) 13 Like the Trade Deficit/GDP ratio, the job quality indicator for wages does not simply equal average yearly change. Rather, it is a weighted index based on income quintiles, which compares the change in the income structure of job growth under Clinton and Bush. The analysis uses five income brackets based on the average salary of an occupation at the beginning of each administration, such that in the base year each income quintile represents 20 percent of total jobs. At the end of each administration, the percent of jobs in each quintile changed as people moved from lower-paid jobs to higher-paid jobs or vice versa. (For the Clinton years, PPI's analysis is based on figures from Erik Olin Wright and Rachel E. Dwyer, "The patterns of job expansions in the USA: a comparison of the 1960s and 1990s," Socio-Economic Review, 2003, v. 1, p. 289-325.) PPI then weighted the quintiles by multiplying the percentage point change in the highest quintile by 2, the second highest quintile by 1, the second lowest quintile by -1, and the lowest quintile by -2. The multiplier for the middle quintile was a neutralizing zero. These weighted growth figures were then summed to calculate a total index for Clinton and for Bush. 14 BLS, Occupational Employment Statistics. These numbers only include jobs that fall into a BLS occupational category. 15 U.S. Census Bureau, Historical Health Insurance Tables, Table HI-1, "Health Insurance Coverage Status and Type of Coverage by Sex, Race, and Hispanic Origin: 1987 to 2003," http://www.census.gov/hhes/hlthins/h.../hihistt1.html 16 Ibid. 17 BLS, Productivity and Costs, http://www.bls.gov/schedule/archives/prod_nr.htm 18 Robert D. Atkinson, "The Innovation Economy: A New Vision for Growth in the 21st Century," Progressive Policy Institute, October 20, 2003, http://www.ppionline.org/ppi_ci.cfm? contentid=252104&knlgAreaID=107&subsecid=123 19 BEA, National Economic Accounts, NIPA Table 7.1, "Selected Per Capita Product and Income Series in Current and Chained dollars." 20 U.S. Census Bureau, Historical Income Tables, Table H-6 "All Races by Median and Mean Income: 1975-2003, http://www.census.gov/hhes/income/histinc/h06ar.html 21 U.S. Census Bureau, Current Population Reports, Table B-1: "Poverty Status of People by Family Relationship, Race, and Hispanic Origin: 1959 to 2003," Income, Poverty, and Health Insurance Coverage in the United States: 2003, p40, http://www.census.gov/prod/2004pubs/p60-226.pdf 22 U.S. Census Bureau, Housing Vacancies and Homeownership Annual Statistics (1995, 2000, and 2003), Table 9: "Estimates for the Total Housing Inventory for the United States." http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/hvs.html Robert D. Atkinson is vice president of PPI and director of its Technology & New Economy Project. Julie Hutto is a policy assistant at the Progressive Policy Institute.
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