France Rejects EU Constitution

[Hippocampus]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

I agree they had no choice. But, at least GB exercised military superiority and actually fought for what they believed in and to save her citizens.

Sorry no sale. The British were just as guilty as the French. They waited, waited and waited for something to happen after declaring war to Germany, packed behind the Maginot Line along with their French allies. No military operations of any consequence were attempted. And we all know what happened afterwards. France's fall served as the UK's wake up call. They had no other choice, they were alone until US relief came along.

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

France, on the other hand, essentially rolled over and let Hitler have his way them them, to the death of tens of thousands of French, esp. gays and jews. Here is an okay site about it http://www.sunderland.ac.uk/~os0tmc/occupied/final.htm .

I think that statement is extremely unfair. While I would never dream of belittling the incredible British war tenure, no one disputes the fact that had there been no sea to protect it, the British army wouldn't have fared any better than France's against the onslaught of Panzers. Neither country was prepared for THAT.

And while the attitude of quite a few individuals during the occupation was despicable, a defeated country generally has little other choice than to yield to the demands of the victor.

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

But, my point about the ML was that since the defeat of Napolean, France has not been able to defend itself and must rely on us to help them.

France fared pretty well during WW I. It was pretty much a stalemate until the US decided to intervene.

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

Yet, they act as if they are a world leader, when in truth, they cannot defend themselves, a position hardly supported by their arrogance and rank hypocrisy.

Is that the arrogant American speaking? What's the matter, don't like a little dissension in world affairs?

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

Finally, I like France and go often. I just think their politics are insane and they are irrelevant in today's world save for their UN Security Council position.

While I would tend to agree that France and UK do get involved more often than other European countries in world affairs, what would you have them do? Relinquish veto power and nod to anything the US, Russia and China decide? The UN is supposed to be a democracy, you know. Ok that last one was a joke.

[strandinthewind]

I think that if France had any valor, it would have fought the Germans with all it had. But, it did not. Once the Germans went around the ML, which was built in anticipation of an attack mind you, France essentially immediately caved and said in return of you Hitler being nice to the other French citizens, here are around 70,000 Jewish and gay souls for you to kill.

As for being an arrogant American - I am just stating facts. If it had not been for us, the French would be under German rule. I did not make those up. That is the way it was. Interestingly, had it not been for us, all of Europe would be under German rule. So, it is not arrogance, it is factual.

As for France and WWI - they were in general okay, but they were still mostly self serving as demonstrated here http://www.firstworldwar.com/origins/causes.htm

In the end and back to my point, the French are most certainly not a superpower and they have deservedly little respect in the military world. Moreover, they are quick to take assistance when they cannot and will not defend themselves.

[Hippocampus]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

I think that if France had any valor, it would have fought the Germans with all it had. But, it did not. Once the Germans went around the ML, which was built in anticipation of an attack mind you, France essentially immediately caved and said in return of you Hitler being nice to the other French citizens, here are around 70,000 Jewish and gay souls for you to kill.

Funny how you dismiss an entire country based on what happened during WW II, as if it were the end all be all of History.

As for the trade of souls comment, don't even go there. It's so very easy to believe you would have been the shinning hero under the same circumstances while you're sitting in your comfy chair.

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

As for being an arrogant American - I am just stating facts. If it had not been for us, the French would be under German rule. I did not make those up. That is the way it was. Interestingly, had it not been for us, all of Europe would be under German rule. So, it is not arrogance, it is factual.

I don't believe anyone disputed that fact, you never even mentioned it. I asked you in jest if you were an arrogant american for saying: "Yet, they act as if they are a world leader, when in truth, they cannot defend themselves, a position hardly supported by their arrogance and rank hypocrisy".

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

As for France and WWI - they were in general okay, but they were still mostly self serving as demonstrated here http://www.firstworldwar.com/origins/causes.htm

I didn't know the debate had shifted to motives. I don't see how it's relevant, the US also entered WWI for its own self-serving reasons (to protect the interests of its economy). What's the point?

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

In the end and back to my point, the French are most certainly not a superpower and they have deservedly little respect in the military world. Moreover, they are quick to take assistance when they cannot and will not defend themselves.

No France is not a superpower, it's rather obvious. But once again, judging the military worth of a country on the sole events of WWII is rather astonishing.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by Hippocampus

Funny how you dismiss an entire country based on what happened during WW II, as if it were the end all be all of History.

Well, I believe I mentioned Napoleon earlier and if you really want, we can go into the whole Indochine debacle and what they are curently doing in Africa :EEK:

Originally Posted by Hippocampus

as for the trade of souls comment, don't even go there. It's so very easy to believe you would have been the shinning hero under the same circumstances while you're sitting in your comfy chair.

On first read, I actually thought you were validating Frances trade of souls But, I think you were not doing that :NOD: As for my comfy chair, though it is indeed that, I never said what I would do, I was just comparing France to the other nations in Europe who fought Hitler instead of essentially caving in immediately and noting that the US also fought Hitler and liberated France when France would not do that itself to any significant degree.

[chiliD]

Originally Posted by Hippocampus

Funny how you dismiss an entire country based on what happened during WW II, as if it were the end all be all of History.

Funny how WWII WAS the end all be all of history. The world completely changed after WWII. No matter which side would've been victorious, the world would no longer be the same as before WWII. Events of today are STILL being decided on things that happened during and immediately following WWII.

[bretonbanquet]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

I think that if France had any valor, it would have fought the Germans with all it had. But, it did not. Once the Germans went around the ML, which was built in anticipation of an attack mind you, France essentially immediately caved and said in return of you Hitler being nice to the other French citizens, here are around 70,000 Jewish and gay souls for you to kill.

As for being an arrogant American - I am just stating facts. If it had not been for us, the French would be under German rule. I did not make those up. That is the way it was. Interestingly, had it not been for us, all of Europe would be under German rule. So, it is not arrogance, it is factual.

Man, you guys...

Don't ever underestimate the state of western Europe after WWI - the grand irony is that in many ways Britain and France hadn't really recovered from it by the time WWII came along, but the Germans had, fuelled by their bitterness at their treatment at Versailles etc. It's true that the sea saved the UK - no doubt about that, but the French did not roll over. They were steamrollered, make no mistake. As for the Germans annihilating those groups of people they sought to wipe out - well, if you stood in the way then you were taken as well. How many of us can honestly say they'd have given their lives in that way? Thankfully none of us can imagine what it was like to be occupied, so it's a big mistake to make judgments about the behaviour of those who were occupied. To suggest the French had no valour is really not on, to be honest.

The role of the US in WWII is well-documented, but the role of the USSR is just never acknowledged, is it? More dead than the US, UK, France and Germany put together, for a start. The majority (something like 70%) of the German forces were tasked throughout the war with fighting the eastern front against the Russians, and every time an army of Russians was defeated another load came over the hill and started shooting. The Germans were worn down by the sheer numbers of opponents, and the Russian winters - Germans who would otherwise have been crossing the English Channel and taking over, and kicking the Americans out of Europe. The Russians saved our skins, no doubt about it. 27 million of them died doing it.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by Lux

The sole claim to glory for the US and the lacking acknowledgement of the Russians must be in the school curriculums in the US. Hitler wrote the death of the empire himself when he attempted to defeat the Russians. I don't know that Hitler's empire could have reigned when the Russians swept across and dominated their power. If it had not been for the US, France would have suffered greatly but I don't know that they would be under German rule.

I guess we should have stayed out of WWII then Why is it every time I say the US did something good, it just sets you a flame. I mean we saved Europe in WWII. I am unsure how that is hard to deny. And - other than for the better good of mankind, which is significant, and the bombing of Pearl Harbor, that war did not really concern us

BTW - I had drinks with a Sydney Aussie this evening - he did not know you, but I told him to be on the lookout

[seeker007nmss]

Shall I add more fuel to the fire? If France had agreed with the Brits and Americans about the reduction and/or elimantion of War repreations after WW1 for the Germans, the economic downfall following the war may not have been as great. Add to this the occupation of the Rhine, Navel blockaids, hyper inflation.....etc. Had the French not been so "Frenchy" (And I won't get into the rest of the Treaty of Versailles (sp)) There is chance Hitler may not have been able to use that current climate to come to power. So I blame the French for setting the stage for WW2.

The defeat of the Germans in Russia had more to do with the extreme winter, multi-front war, and too expansive supply lines, than actual russian numbers. (Not dismissing the numbers, just form a military standpoint the numbers would have had a less effect if the other varibles weren't there.)

Yes, I will admit their contribution to the US in the early part of our history, but their track record since then is just deplorable. (As far as backing it's allies)

I have no use for the french except for the Staue of Liberty, Jacques Coustou and crepes.

Now back to our regulary scheduled programming.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by Lux

. . . I'll be sure to have them thankyou Jason.

You have that power all the way down under?

[seeker007nmss]

Originally Posted by bretonbanquet

The role of the US in WWII is well-documented, but the role of the USSR is just never acknowledged, is it? More dead than the US, UK, France and Germany put together, for a start. The majority (something like 70%) of the German forces were tasked throughout the war with fighting the eastern front against the Russians, and every time an army of Russians was defeated another load came over the hill and started shooting. The Germans were worn down by the sheer numbers of opponents, and the Russian winters - Germans who would otherwise have been crossing the English Channel and taking over, and kicking the Americans out of Europe. The Russians saved our skins, no doubt about it. 27 million of them died doing it.

Then again, lets not forget the agreement Russia and Germany made over the division of Poland and other reastern Block countries, which Hitler made with the Russians before he invaded them. (Which Hitler broke and kept going). I wonder if the Russians would have tried to "save" the UK if Hitler hadn't gone east? I doubt it. And as far as dead. We hear about Hitler's atrocites all the time, yet very little is said about Stalin's little ethnic cleansings. (And the Japanese atrocities are a whole other subject) Just a thought. NO SIDE is ever a saint, the winners just get to write the historical version of what happened.

[bretonbanquet]

Originally Posted by seeker007nmss

Then again, lets not forget the agreement Russia and Germany made over the division of Poland and other reastern Block countries, which Hitler made with the Russians before he invaded them. (Which Hitler broke and kept going). I wonder if the Russians would have tried to "save" the UK if Hitler hadn't gone east? I doubt it. And as far as dead. We hear about Hitler's atrocites all the time, yet very little is said about Stalin's little ethnic cleansings. (And the Japanese atrocities are a whole other subject) Just a thought. NO SIDE is ever a saint, the winners just get to write the historical version of what happened.

Yes - don't get me wrong, I know the Russians weren't fighting out of any kindness to us or anyone else - they were fighting for their own reasons. They helped us out a great deal, sure it was inadvertent, but it's still true.

Strand - no-one's denying that the US made an enormous contribution to the war, but sometimes people seem to make out that the US were fighting alone... and the war had more implications for the States than you think. If Europe had been overrun and the Russians subdued, Germany could in theory have then helped the Japanese fight the US. The US would have stood alone against Nazism and Japanese aggression - they sure didn't want that. The US were not solely acting for the benefit of mankind.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by bretonbanquet

. . . Germany could in theory have then helped the Japanese fight the US . . . .

Japan was part of the Axis of Power and was already aligned with Germany and Italy So, they were helong Japan in that sense, though in the end I have no doubt Hitler would have stabbed Japan and Italy in the back because those two nations hardly fit into the Aryan profile.

But, I agree, the US did not enter the war until it had to. But, that is not the point I was making. The point I was making is the facts indicate the remainder of free Europe, save perhaps Russia and to a lesser extent GB, was losing badly until the US came into the war. Thus, I think it is accurate to say the entrance of the US into the European theatre of WWII is what turned whast appeared to be a certain defeat for the free European nations into a long road to the now historical win - for which we are all blessed

Interestingly, people talk of the horrors under Hitler, which were indeed bad, but what the Japanese dod to the Chinese and had been doing for a long time prior to then, was IMO somewhat worse, though both Hitler and the Japanese had shops of horror - sad, very true.

On edit - here is a fairly cool site with a WWII timeline

Also, I LOVE to talk about WWII and WWI - I think it is fascinating, though I know the horrors were significant.