I'm an "undecided"...convince me.

[Violet]

I had planned on voting for Bush, but the last few days I've been reconsidering. Since there are so many Dems on this board, I thought I'd give y'all a chance to convince me to vote for Kerry.

If it helps you to know where I stand on some things okay:
--I'm okay with stem cell research, but I don't think that makes late term abortions okay.
--I'm all for gay marriage. In fact, I performed a committment ceremoney for a friend when I lived in FL.
--No throwing things at me, but I supported the war in Iraq. But I also feel it's time for our troops to come home.
--I'm middle class

I have one request, though. Don't bash Bush. That's not gonna convince me, and it will probably make me skip the post. I want to know what Kerry will do; not what Bush has done/hasn't done/should do/won't do, etc. I want to know how Kerry will keep us safe, how he's going to pay for all these wonderful things he's promised, if he plans on going after bin laden. I kept hearing him say during the debates what he's gonna do, but never heard him say how.

Oh, one more thing. Keep it simple. I took an Indian neonatologist's depo and I've had enough big words for a while.

So have at it. Sell me on Kerry.

Thanks, guys!
Carol

[amber]

Well, why were you going to vote for Bush? I can't tell from your post what you do agree with him about...Is it because you think Bush will keep us safe?

AMber

[Violet]

Mainly because I want people to tell me why I should vote for Kerry; not why I shouldn't vote for bush. Does that make sense? Why did I vote for bush the first time? I like him as a person :ducks head: for one thing. I can't stand Clinton, and I found Gore boring. I don't remember exactly I liked bush more than gore, except that gore didn't impress me during the debates or anything. I watched the campaign then and knew I wanted to vote for bush. This time I'm wishy-washy...

Carol

[amber]

No, you said you "had planned on voting for Bush" and I wanted to know why, since the few positions you posted that you had did not agree with Bush. If i was gonna convince you, i had to find out what you care about, see?
AMber

[strandinthewind]

I think you should vote for Kerry because he is more even tempered than W.

I think Kerry is smarter and more experienced than W.

I think W and Cheney both avoided going to Vietnam but have no qualms about sending other peoples' children to war on a false premise, not listening to the advice of their Generals and sending too few troops, and then not having a plan to win the peace in Iraq or, apparently, to secure the munitions sites once we got there.

I think if you are for civil liberties as you say you are, you must realize W will most certainly push to ban a woman's right to choose, any rights at all afforded to gay people, and any rights at all left in the Const.'s prohibition against unreasonable and warrantless searches and seizures.

I think Kerry is not for any of those things and W is. So, I think if you are okay with the foregoing, then you should vote for W. If not, then vote for Kerry.

I voted for Kerry because I think Kerry can and will protect us, but he will not foolheartedly rush into a conflict that we do not have to fight. Again, Kerry and the Senate gave W the authorization to use force in Iraq as a last resort. W betrayed that authorization and went in before the UN inspections, which were finally working, could be completed in about three or so months. W could not wait for that. Then, after saying SH was an immediate and exigent threat and his admin. said they "knew" where the WMD were in order to sell the war, it all turns out to have been a lie. Over 1,000 American soldiers payed the price of their lives for that lie and 10's of thousands of innocent Iraqi's (the people we are supposed to care enough about to liberate) are dead because of it.

I hope that helps!!!!

Tone: Not an in your face kind of way

[dissention]

Originally Posted by Violet

--I'm okay with stem cell research, but I don't think that makes late term abortions okay.

George Bush does not support stem cell research. The only embryos he has made available for stem cell research are damaged ones, hardly the cream of the crop. That, in turn, taints any kind of research that comes out of testing. All of the cells available under the Bush policy were originally grown on what is known as a "feeder layer" of mouse cells, making their therapeutic value uncertain. The Bush policy prevents federally funded scientists from conducting research on stem cells grown without this contamination.

Kerry believes in supporting stem cell research. He wants to expand the stem cell policies by making clean embryos available, along with more federal support. From the Kerry webpage on stem cell research:

"John Kerry And John Edwards Support Lifting The Ban On Stem Cell Research. Stem cells hold enormous promise for the development of new treatments for the most devastating diseases. John Kerry and John Edwards believe our medical researchers should be permitted and encouraged to simultaneously pursue embryonic stem cell research. As president, John Kerry will overturn the ban on federal funding of research on new stem cell lines, and he will allow doctors and scientists to explore their full potential with the appropriate ethical oversight. Patients and their families should no longer be denied the hope that this new research brings."

Originally Posted by Violet

--I'm all for gay marriage. In fact, I performed a committment ceremoney for a friend when I lived in FL.

George Bush wants to ban gay marriage nationally instead of allowing states to decide. His administration also doesn't believe that gay men and women should have equal pay in the workplace. He once said that AIDS was not a disease. Out of all the money he has said he would give to stop the spread of AIDS, so far he has only given $300 million, billions short of what he promised.

While John kerry does not believe in gay marriage, he does not believe that the federal government should impose the rights of the states and ban it. He also voted against the Defense of Marriage Act of 1998, one of very few senators who had the balls to do so.

Originally Posted by Violet

--No throwing things at me, but I supported the war in Iraq. But I also feel it's time for our troops to come home.

George Bush CUT combat pay for the soldiers in Iraq, he CUT benefits for them, and he CUT aid for their families back at home. He has also CUT veterans benefits for all veterans and has given the go ahead to closing three VA hospitals.

Originally Posted by Violet

--I'm middle class

90% of all the wealth in this country belongs to 1% of the population. When he cut taxes, who benefitted more? The people who make $25,000 a year or the people who made millions? The people who made millions. In fact, over 80% of the tax cut went to the wealthiest one percent of the population...the same people who already own 90% of all wealth. Bush is also in favor of getting rid of the income tax and instead replacing it with a flat federal sales tax. Tha twould mean a federal sales tax of around 20%, plus 5-10% for state and local taxes, meaning that you would pay about 30 cents on the dollar for taxed products

Now, at JohnKerry.com, he lays out every plan he has for the country and the issues. Go here:

http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/

When you click on an issue, it will give you some background info on that particular issue and what he believes. As you scroll down whatever issue you click, on the right side of the screen you will see a box that says "_________ Plans." Click on a particular plan and it will be laid out for you. Go there and check them out because they lay everything out!

[Violet]

Originally Posted by amber

No, you said you "had planned on voting for Bush" and I wanted to know why, since the few positions you posted that you had did not agree with Bush. If i was gonna convince you, i had to find out what you care about, see?
AMber

Oh! oops...told you my brain is fried.
Well, see I'm a Republican and have NEVER voted democrat. And like I said, I like bush as a person. Sorry, but that's important to me. And I think the few things I mentioned were more to show that I'm kind of a liberal republican.

The thing that concerns me most is being safe. That's my biggest thing. I'm thrilled we took out sadam. I read somewhere (please don't ask me to quote where because I'm not gonna take the time to look it up) that Clinton had the chance to get bin laden and he didn't. That scares the bejeebies outta me.

My second concern is taxes. I don't want to pay any more than I do now, and I liked getting the $400 or whatever it was last year. nuff said.

Carol

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by dissention

George Bush does not support stem cell research. The only embryos he has made available for stem cell research are damaged ones, hardly the cream of the crop. That, in turn, taints any kind of research that comes out of testing. All of the cells available under the Bush policy were originally grown on what is known as a "feeder layer" of mouse cells, making their therapeutic value uncertain. The Bush policy prevents federally funded scientists from conducting research on stem cells grown without this contamination.

Kerry believes in supporting stem cell research. He wants to expand the stem cell policies by making clean embryos available, along with more federal support. From the Kerry webpage on stem cell research:

"John Kerry And John Edwards Support Lifting The Ban On Stem Cell Research. Stem cells hold enormous promise for the development of new treatments for the most devastating diseases. John Kerry and John Edwards believe our medical researchers should be permitted and encouraged to simultaneously pursue embryonic stem cell research. As president, John Kerry will overturn the ban on federal funding of research on new stem cell lines, and he will allow doctors and scientists to explore their full potential with the appropriate ethical oversight. Patients and their families should no longer be denied the hope that this new research brings."



George Bush wants to ban gay marriage nationally instead of allowing states to decide. His administration also doesn't believe that gay men and women should have equal pay in the workplace. He once said that AIDS was not a disease. Out of all the money he has said he would give to stop the spread of AIDS, so far he has only given $300 million, billions short of what he promised.

While John kerry does not believe in gay marriage, he does not believe that the federal government should impose the rights of the states and ban it. He also voted against the Defense of Marriage Act of 1998, one of very few senators who had the balls to do so.



George Bush CUT combat pay for the soldiers in Iraq, he CUT benefits for them, and he CUT aid for their families back at home. He has also CUT veterans benefits for all veterans and has given the go ahead to closing three VA hospitals.



90% of all the wealth in this country belongs to 1% of the population. When he cut taxes, who benefitted more? The people who make $25,000 a year or the people who made millions? The people who made millions. In fact, over 80% of the tax cut went to the wealthiest one percent of the population...the same people who already own 90% of all wealth. Bush is also in favor of getting rid of the income tax and instead replacing it with a flat federal sales tax. Tha twould mean a federal sales tax of around 20%, plus 5-10% for state and local taxes, meaning that you would pay about 30 cents on the dollar for taxed products

Now, at JohnKerry.com, he lays out every plan he has for the country and the issues. Go here:

http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/

When you click on an issue, it will give you some background info on that particular issue and what he believes. As you scroll down whatever issue you click, on the right side of the screen you will see a box that says "_________ Plans." Click on a particular plan and it will be laid out for you. Go there and check them out because they lay everything out!

Well said my friend - well said!!!!

[dissention]

Originally Posted by Violet

Mainly because I want people to tell me why I should vote for Kerry; not why I shouldn't vote for bush. Does that make sense? Why did I vote for bush the first time? I like him as a person :ducks head: for one thing. I can't stand Clinton, and I found Gore boring. I don't remember exactly I liked bush more than gore, except that gore didn't impress me during the debates or anything. I watched the campaign then and knew I wanted to vote for bush. This time I'm wishy-washy...

Carol

Here's my two cents, don't spend it all in one place ( ):

We've all seen what has happened in the last four years. I personally think it has done such incredible damage to our country that it will take a miracle to even begin repairing it. While you may like Bush as a person, look at his policies. Are you and the country better off than when Clinton was in office? Economically speaking, I say no. Socially speaking, I say no. When it comes to foreign policy? No way. It's the kind of election where you simply cannot vote for who you like better as a person, you have to vote for the person who will actually do something good while in office.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by Violet

. . . My second concern is taxes. I don't want to pay any more than I do now, and I liked getting the $400 or whatever it was last year. nuff said.

Carol

I am uncertain if Kerry will raise the taxes on the Middle Class. I think he has said he just wants to repeal the tax cuts for the people making $200,000 or more a year and he thinks the tax cuts scheduled to go into effect in the future or something like that should not be effectuated. He has a point because W cut taxes, which many but not all believe is an effective catalyst to promote economic growth. The problem is W then spent all of our money and went into debt. So, we cannot afford the future tax cuts. It would sort of be like taking a cut in pay and then maxing out all of your credit cards based on the hope that you get a slight raise in five years. That kind of economic policy is too liberal for me. Thus, I could not vote for W.

[Violet]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

Tone: Not an in your face kind of way

I knew you'd be one of the first to respond!
Totally not taken in an in-your-face kind of way!

I've read what you've said and will consider it all. I appreciate it, really.

And I admit I didn't watch all of the debates, and I'd like to know how Kerry plans to keep us safe. Like I told Amber, that's my biggest thing.

Carol (anxiously awaiting Dissention's post)
(oops again! Dissention must have posted while I was reading Strand's. I KNEW you two would be on top of this!)

[dissention]

Originally Posted by Violet

The thing that concerns me most is being safe. That's my biggest thing. I'm thrilled we took out sadam. I read somewhere (please don't ask me to quote where because I'm not gonna take the time to look it up) that Clinton had the chance to get bin laden and he didn't. That scares the bejeebies outta me.

The Clinton rumor has been debunked ten times over, it NEVER happened.

As for keeping us safe, I don't know what to say. I don't want to piss you off because you like Bush, but what has he done to make us safe? Just this week it was reported that 400 tons of explosives just, poof, vanished into the air in Iraq, leaving no trace. He was asked about it today and he refused to comment. Colin Powell said he has no clue what's going on.

On August 6, 2001, he got a Presidential Daily Briefing titled "Bin Laden Determined To Strike Inside United States," wherein it stated he was going to hijack planes. Common sense says that you need to leap into action, but he stayed on vacation in Texas. He didn't get back to work until September 10th. Before Clinton left office, he told Bush that Al-Qaeda was the biggest threat, but Richard Clarke testified under oath that Bush disregarded everyhting about Al-Qaeda and concentrated solely on Iraq.

90% of all cargo that is brought into the US is NOT INSPECTED. People are allowed to bring four books of matches and two butane lighters onto commercial aircrafts...even after 9/11.

I don't think he's done a single thing to make us safer. He didn't go into Afghanistan until TWO MONTHS after 9/11. Obviously bin Laden was outta there.

Originally Posted by Violet

My second concern is taxes. I don't want to pay any more than I do now, and I liked getting the $400 or whatever it was last year. nuff said.

Kerry only wants to raise taxes on the top 1%, the same as Clinton. He wants to keep the tax cuts for the middle class.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

I am uncertain if Kerry will raise the taxes on the Middle Class. I think he has said he just wants to repeal the tax cuts for the people making $200,000 or more a year and he thinks the tax cuts scheduled to go into effect in the future or something like that should not be effectuated. He has a point because W cut taxes, which many but not all believe is an effective catalyst to promote economic growth. The problem is W then spent all of our money and went into debt. So, we cannot afford the future tax cuts. It would sort of be like taking a cut in pay and then maxing out all of your credit cards based on the hope that you get a slight raise in five years. That kind of economic policy is too liberal for me. Thus, I could not vote for W.

http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/economy/

Cut Middle-Class Taxes To Raise Middle-Class Incomes
When John Kerry is president, middle-class taxes will go down. Ninety-eight percent of all Americans and 99 percent of American businesses will get a tax cut under the Kerry-Edwards plan.

Create Good-Paying Jobs
As president, John Kerry will cut taxes for businesses that create jobs here in America instead of moving them overseas. John Kerry and John Edwards will also stand up for workers by enforcing our trade agreements.

http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/s...2004_0423.html

I will reform out of control spending by putting in place budget caps that assure Washington has to live within its means. I will cut waste and abuse out of our health care system by giving incentives for smarter more efficient systems.

I will reform corporate America by requiring corporations to report to their shareholders and what they report to the IRS. And I will reform our tax code by ending incentives for companies to send jobs overseas.

Government should take less money from the middle class, and do more to make sure their hard-earned tax dollars go to solve their real problems.

My plan will cut taxes to help middle-class families send their children to college, but it also includes reforms to make college affordable again, after three years of the steepest tuition inflation on record.

We need to take these steps to help our working families and we need to make sure that they are paid for. And I will pay for my education and health care plans by rolling back the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by Violet

Carol (anxiously awaiting Dissention's post)
(oops again! Dissention must have posted while I was reading Strand's. I KNEW you two would be on top of this!)

Like white on rice.

[strandinthewind]

LOL - Carol - it is so funny because Diss and I agree on the large issues and fight to the death in the minutia (sp.?)




But seriously, I think W has not done a whole lot other than talk tough. As Bill Maher said, any idiot could have pointed to Afganistan and told the world's most powerful military to detroy it, which essentially is what W did. AND - I willingly admit that mission captured a significant number of OBL's main people, which was a good thing and made us on the whole safer. My problem with W on this issue is:

1. He let 9/11 happen - the buck stops with him whether the peices of the puzzle could have ever been put together or not, which is a hotly debated issue. But, assuming they could not, W has never even said he was sorry to the American people for letting it happen. He just assumes it was not his fault.

2. He allegedly had OBL in Tora Bora and caved into political pressure from Pakistan not to use them as a tool to get OBL. I think that shows weakness to a much larger degree than Kerry has ever shown.

3. Iraq. Like you, I was all for doing something about SH, because like W, Clinton, Kerry, and the unanimous UN - I thought SH was too dangerous a variable to leave unchecked and unaccountable to the first Gulf War accord where he agreed to prove he had disarmed. My beef with Iraq is W's almost rabid and inexplicable mad rush to remove SH. W could have waited a few more months for the UN inspections to end and maybe all of the those lives could have been spared - maybe the world would have gotten behind us, which could have averted war. I think that was a long shot, but three moths for 10's of thousands of lives - I'll wait that anyday, especially since W knew that SH was not the exigent nuclear threat W knowingly and erroneously alleged. Then, our troops were ill prepared as evidenced by the prison torturers, ill equipped as evidenced by parents selling personal items to buy bullet proof vests and other needed items, and ill planned as evidenced by the utter turmoil in Iraq right now and the loss of like 300 tons of munitions that the UN told the US was there and to watch it. I mean those are HUGE mistakes which probably could have been avoided with more planning and training, which W inexplicably just refused to do.

4. I have a huge problem with someone who willingly lies to send other peoples' kids to their deaths in the name of our nation when he himself refused to go overseas and do the same. Moreover, Cheney himself got several deferrments because because he said he had "better things to do." I mean that is an outrage to me. And these people are the ones who are supposed to be the fearless and unflinching leaders they tout themselves as. Conversely, Kerry volunterred to go into battle. I know there is an alleged issue surrounding the severity of his wounds, but all of those medals certainly could not have been forged. Moreover, Kerry went while W and Dick played possum. I think that more than anything shows bravery and integrity on Kerry's behalf and none on the behalf of W and Dick.

That is why I think W cannot keep us safe and Kerry can