Fourth Fritz Clip! Reconsider from 1967....

[glitter_fades]

Originally Posted by ThinLine

I'm sure it was never Javier's or Marty's intention to insult any fans by offering good size clips of these songs. I think it's insulting to Marty and Javier to complain about them. If you and others are not interested in hearing them and feel insulted, please spare Marty, Javier and the rest of the fans who are interested.

There is a growing trend in thinking that all music should be free, just as the fan sites that host this music and provide the music are offered free to fans by a handful of FM site owners. It's laughable to think that the same fans who are complaining and feel insulted at the carrots being dangled in front of them would actually end up paying for the songs if Javier did actually release them for a fee online. They'd be swapped around in record time. Yea, yea, yea, we've all heard it before, the fans will pay for things just give it to them. I tend to think that group is smaller and smaller and the more music that's provided free since the fan sites started regular file sharing, makes me realize that very few would pay.... and most (regardless of income and ability to pay) would be swapping them left and right.

For the people who feel insulted and are questioning motives, it's simple, don't listen to the clips and pretend they don't exist and let the fans who are interested and appreciative enjoy them. Try not to insult Marty and Javier and ruin it for everyone else.

Thanks to Marty and Javier for giving the fans an oppportunity to listen to this long lost music.

Whoa! I didn't say I felt insulted with the snippets being posted. I said some fans posting frustrations in this thread seem to think Javier is misplaying his hand. What I meant by that is some fans seem to be voicing frustration NOT because they think the music should be free, but becasue posting snippets seems insulting if fans get the impression Javier's only using Marty and this board to whip up interest in a commercial product in a teasing and annoying way. I want to be clear. This is my interpretation of some posts in this thread, not my own opinion. Also, I don't see why pointing this out is ruining anything for other fans. How so?

What I said about my own opinion is the snippets are not heightening my interest. I'm stating a fact that Javier might want to consider. It's ok if you feel otherwise. Most fans do. My statement is not intended to dismay fans who want to hear the snippets. If voicing honest opinions leads to having full songs released will everyone feel the same way about the unpopular posts? It's clear some fans think any type of negative comment will limit the possiblity of the music ever being available. I don't think that's true. Why does this discussion have to be one of taking sides? I don't see why Marty or Javier would get disheartened by posts that tell how all fans truly feel. Isn't that the real reason why these cuts are being posted here? If the music was posted here for pure enjoyment there would be no discussion. Since it appears this is more of a trial balloon on releasing the rest of what Javier has, why not be honest about our opinions? Again, I'm not trying to ruin anything for anyone. I'm stating an opinion about the way the whole thing is being funneled through this board. You don't have to agree. I'm not disheartened by anyone else's opinion. It's all good.

[CarneVaca]

Originally Posted by glitter_fades

If the music was posted here for pure enjoyment there would be no discussion. Since it appears this is more of a trial balloon on realeasing the rest of what Javier has, why not be honest about our opinions? Again, I'm not trying to ruin anything for anyone. I'm stating an opinion about the way the whole thing is being funneled through this board.

You make some valid points. This whole enterprise has always struck me as a way to stick your toe in the water without committing.

If Javier is interested in releasing the music for the solely sake fo folks enjoying, I agree that he should share the full songs. If he wants to make money from it, which I completely understand, he should do so as well. But the latter does not void the former. I think he could share the full songs and sell them later. But that's an argument I've already made.

[ThinLine]

glitter,

I obviously misunderstood your post

Originally Posted by glitterfades

I'm not speaking for everyone, but to some people the snippets are more of an insult than a treat.

I wasn't quite sure if you felt that way or you were expressing a general feeling you were getting from other fans.

As for taking sides, when I read your post (added to some of the comments that have been posted here already) I was responding to the feeling that fans were insulted to only be receiving clips.

[David]

Originally Posted by ThinLine

As for taking sides, when I read your post (added to some of the comments that have been posted here already) I was responding to the feeling that fans were insulted to only be receiving clips.

As far as I'm concerned, clips are fine -- or no clips at all, or whole songs, or even pretty pictures of people's houses with the juniper tree in the front yard.

The thing I've never particularly cared for during my decades of collecting & watching others collect is the nonsense of announcing you have something but can't, or don't intend to, share it. That's actually a better description of carrot-dangling. (In fact, some of us have an even more colorful term to describe that, but using it would be to flout the FAQ.) If you have something you know the rest of the fans would love to have but you have no intention of disseminating it, announcing it is bragging about it. Our parents & teachers were supposed to have taught us at very young ages that bragging is not nice. I remember a nice young lady a couple of years ago got involved in some sort of silliness over an unreleased Lindsey Buckingham song that was up for bid on eBay -- for whatever reason, the announcement was made here on this forum that the song would not be shared, which, as anyone would guess, resulted in a lot of resentment & flaming. People justifiably felt at the time, why was the announcement made? What good did it serve? The answer was obvious: it feels great to the person bragging. But it's not nice. It's rude. Things like this used to happen on Usenet, too. Fans had this or that & didn't want to or were bound not to share the stuff, but went ahead & chatted merrily about it anyway in a public forum ... to the extreme & justifiable annoyance of others.

It's something to think about. I sometimes catch myself bragging about something, & think, "David, you're being an ass. Cut it out." The compulsion to brag is extremely powerful, but it can be fought.

[ThinLine]

Originally Posted by David

The thing I've never particularly cared for during my decades of collecting & watching others collect is the nonsense of announcing you have something but can't, or don't intend to, share it.

It's something to think about. I sometimes catch myself bragging about something, & think, "David, you're being an ass. Cut it out." The compulsion to brag is extremely powerful, but it can be fought.

Sometimes there are good reasons why people can't or won't share things, even if the people who want it may not want to understand, or aren't privy to all of the reasons why something can't be shared. Sometimes fans just assume they know all of the reasons, when in fact they don't.

By the same token there are a lot of FM fans who have a boatload of private material and don't want it shared with all fans and get mad at those who do choose to share it. Because of the ease and low cost of file sharing on fan sites, many new fans are able to build a collection so that they can one day trade. There are very few sites who will trade for blanks and many fans don't have anything a more experienced fan will want.

I suppose there are all kinds of reasons why fans share or don't share, or only share with their closest friends or groups. I guess its wrong to assume we know why someone does or does not do something if we don't know all the facts behind their decision.

[NoThatFunny]

Originally Posted by ThinLine

Sometimes there are good reasons why people can't or won't share things, even if the people who want it may not want to understand, or aren't privy to all of the reasons why something can't be shared. Sometimes fans just assume they know all of the reasons, when in fact they don't.

This is an interesting discussion. But if may bold enough to interpret what David was saying, he is making the very reasonable argument that if you have something you don't want to share, it makes no sense to talk about it, or brag about it, with other fans who will naturally also want to get their hands on it. I think his point is a good one.

[ThinLine]

Originally Posted by NoThatFunny

This is an interesting discussion. But if may bold enough to interpret what David was saying, he is making the very reasonable argument that if you have something you don't want to share, it makes no sense to talk about it, or brag about it, with other fans who will naturally also want to get their hands on it. I think his point is a good one.

I agree with people who brag about it. But not every case is the same and just because fans find out one person has something, that doesn't mean the person who has is now obligated to share it. Sometimes not everything about a situation is known and people just assume things they really shouldn't.

[bjk3047]

Originally Posted by ThinLine

I agree with people who brag about it. But not every case is the same and just because fans find out one person has something, that doesn't mean the person who has is now obligated to share it. Sometimes not everything about a situation is known and people just assume things they really shouldn't.

I'm sorry, but all you're doing is making completely nonspecific comments. If indeed Javier has 'unknown' elements to his 'situation', he's got a forum to voice it. We're forming quite reasonable and structured arguments. You're just saying 'Well, you could be wrong. I know nothing about anything, but you could be wrong.'
It's a bit unnerving.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by David

As far as I'm concerned, clips are fine -- or no clips at all, or whole songs, or even pretty pictures of people's houses with the juniper tree in the front yard.

The thing I've never particularly cared for during my decades of collecting & watching others collect is the nonsense of announcing you have something but can't, or don't intend to, share it. That's actually a better description of carrot-dangling. (In fact, some of us have an even more colorful term to describe that, but using it would be to flout the FAQ.) If you have something you know the rest of the fans would love to have but you have no intention of disseminating it, announcing it is bragging about it. Our parents & teachers were supposed to have taught us at very young ages that bragging is not nice. I remember a nice young lady a couple of years ago got involved in some sort of silliness over an unreleased Lindsey Buckingham song that was up for bid on eBay -- for whatever reason, the announcement was made here on this forum that the song would not be shared, which, as anyone would guess, resulted in a lot of resentment & flaming. People justifiably felt at the time, why was the announcement made? What good did it serve? The answer was obvious: it feels great to the person bragging. But it's not nice. It's rude. Things like this used to happen on Usenet, too. Fans had this or that & didn't want to or were bound not to share the stuff, but went ahead & chatted merrily about it anyway in a public forum ... to the extreme & justifiable annoyance of others.

It's something to think about. I sometimes catch myself bragging about something, & think, "David, you're being an ass. Cut it out." The compulsion to brag is extremely powerful, but it can be fought.

That was Peacekeeper from the ACLU sampler.

And the sma ething happens with Lindsey's version of Bill Yellow Taxi every once in awhile and the person bragging about it tells a tale about not being able to circulate it or else someone in the record biz will lose their job.

[glitter_fades]

Originally Posted by ThinLine

glitter,

I obviously misunderstood your post

I wasn't quite sure if you felt that way or you were expressing a general feeling you were getting from other fans.

As for taking sides, when I read your post (added to some of the comments that have been posted here already) I was responding to the feeling that fans were insulted to only be receiving clips.

I see what you're saying. I didn't mean posting the clips is an insult compared to entire songs. My reading of certain posts is that some fans are feeling used in the process. Dangling the clips to see if everyone will go crazy about entire songs might seem less than noble to some. Are the clips out there for enjoyment only or are they intended to get fans to beg for more? I might be wrong, but I thought those type of posts were expressing ire at the process not the clips themselves.