20 years since Say You Will...

[aleuzzi]

I remember first hearing it and hating the absence of Christine. Stevie sounded nasal and Buckingham’s tunes seemed tuneless. But then, about a week later, I listened with new ears and felt genuine excitement for about 2/3 of the songs. What I liked most were those songs that DIDN’T sound like traditional FM. “Illume,” “Everybody Finds Out,” “Red Rover,” and “Say Goodbye” all felt new and innovative to my ears. The musicianship was strong and even a little more aggressive—something that translated on the tours. While only a few songs on SYW match my enthusiasm for the bulk of IN THE MEANTIME, I was willing to accept this essentially new band, where the bros hit harder and Stevie’s attack was less precious, more direct and accessible. It all added up to an AMERICAN band backed with two monster rhythm players.

But as good as it was, it felt a bit dry, somewhat calculated and defensive. It lacked humanity and warmth.

I never realized how central Christine was to the Mac chemistry until she wasn’t there. I also never realized how much she WAS the Mac sound until I heard ITM, and felt the bulk of it was more FM than FM—even though none of the remaining four were there.

Put another way, the BuckVie project, in which a different configuration of four FM members are present and one is absent, sounds a lot more like an actual FM record.

[HomerMcvie]

Originally Posted by aleuzzi

I remember first hearing it and hating the absence of Christine. Stevie sounded nasal and Buckingham’s tunes seemed tuneless. But then, about a week later, I listened with new ears and felt genuine excitement for about 2/3 of the songs. What I liked most were those songs that DIDN’T sound like traditional FM. “Illume,” “Everybody Finds Out,” “Red Rover,” and “Say Goodbye” all felt new and innovative to my ears. The musicianship was strong and even a little more aggressive—something that translated on the tours. While only a few songs on SYW match my enthusiasm for the bulk of IN THE MEANTIME, I was willing to accept this essentially new band, where the bros hit harder and Stevie’s attack was less precious, more direct and accessible. It all added up to an AMERICAN band backed with two monster rhythm players.

But as good as it was, it felt a bit dry, somewhat calculated and defensive. It lacked humanity and warmth.

I never realized how central Christine was to the Mac chemistry until she wasn’t there. I also never realized how much she WAS the Mac sound until I heard ITM, and felt the bulk of it was more FM than FM—even though none of the remaining four were there.

Put another way, the BuckVie project, in which a different configuration of four FM members are present and one is absent, sounds a lot more like an actual FM record.

I agree with every word. SYW is just.... too empty. Christine really was what made it work.

WHAT would've happened if Christine had left the band in 1975, when they joined? WOULD they have had success? I'll bet they'd have had a couple of hits, then faded away. Take away SYLM,OMH,YMLF, and Don't Stop, and there's not a lot of mass appeal left, IMO.

[Villavic]

Originally Posted by HomerMcvie

WHAT would've happened if Christine had left the band in 1975, when they joined? WOULD they have had success? .

We will never know how succesful they would have been, if they were. But definitely there would not have been the Rumours phenomenom. And who knows how long would that lineup have lasted.

My first thoughts coincide with you guys about Christine absence in SYW. I missed her a lot all those years. But I think that to get a complete Fleetwood Mac album, Richard Dashut's presence would have been great. And with Ken, ideal.

[aleuzzi]

Originally Posted by HomerMcvie

I agree with every word. SYW is just.... too empty. Christine really was what made it work.

WHAT would've happened if Christine had left the band in 1975, when they joined? WOULD they have had success? I'll bet they'd have had a couple of hits, then faded away. Take away SYLM,OMH,YMLF, and Don't Stop, and there's not a lot of mass appeal left, IMO.

Not to mention Hold Me, Little Lies, and Everywhere…

But it’s also the album tracks. The white album without Sugar Daddy?! Egads.

[jbrownsjr]

Originally Posted by aleuzzi

I remember first hearing it and hating the absence of Christine. Stevie sounded nasal and Buckingham’s tunes seemed tuneless. But then, about a week later, I listened with new ears and felt genuine excitement for about 2/3 of the songs. What I liked most were those songs that DIDN’T sound like traditional FM. “Illume,” “Everybody Finds Out,” “Red Rover,” and “Say Goodbye” all felt new and innovative to my ears. The musicianship was strong and even a little more aggressive—something that translated on the tours. While only a few songs on SYW match my enthusiasm for the bulk of IN THE MEANTIME, I was willing to accept this essentially new band, where the bros hit harder and Stevie’s attack was less precious, more direct and accessible. It all added up to an AMERICAN band backed with two monster rhythm players.

But as good as it was, it felt a bit dry, somewhat calculated and defensive. It lacked humanity and warmth.

I never realized how central Christine was to the Mac chemistry until she wasn’t there. I also never realized how much she WAS the Mac sound until I heard ITM, and felt the bulk of it was more FM than FM—even though none of the remaining four were there.

Put another way, the BuckVie project, in which a different configuration of four FM members are present and one is absent, sounds a lot more like an actual FM record.

Yea, couldn't have stated this any better. Spot on, observations.

[Tusky]

Originally Posted by aleuzzi

But as good as it was, it felt a bit dry, somewhat calculated and defensive. It lacked humanity and warmth.

SUCH a good post. The Dance was all about reminding us about what we loved about the band - the warmth, the chemistry, the familiar f***** up-ness and beauty. In retrospect SYW felt lacking a layer of organic creation because there wasn't. L&S never created together from the ground up. Unlike say Tango which had the L& Christine chemistry at the heart of so many of the songs. I think I spent a lot of time convincing myself I liked the album but...it had changed. I even think some of Trouble In Shangri-La has more the FMac spirit and like you said In The Meantime. Intellectually I respected and appreciated where Lindsey was coming from in his vision for the album, but it was at odds with what Stevie was bringing to the table and didn't work unlike say Tusk.

[Villavic]

Originally Posted by Tusky

the L& Christine chemistry at the heart of so many of the songs.

Well, he couldn't have described it better.

Christine and I...

[jbrownsjr]

Originally Posted by Villavic

Well, he couldn't have described it better.

Christine and I...

I remember I could recite this docu. haha

[FuzzyPlum]

Also, as much as Lindsey's production skills are lauded, maybe we under-value what Richard and Ken also brought to the table. I like Lindsey solo albums but I find they too lack a bit of warmth.

[WalkAThinLine.]

Originally Posted by FuzzyPlum

Also, as much as Lindsey's production skills are lauded, maybe we under-value what Richard and Ken also brought to the table. I like Lindsey solo albums but I find they too lack a bit of warmth.

Richard Dashut did help with the production on Law and Order and Out of the Cradle, but I certainly agree with this. Lindsey benefited considerably from the production choices of Ken Caillat, which is evident through his songs up through the Mirage album. As is the case with many people, Lindsey benefits from having another person in the room to provide additional input and improve his existing ideas. Ken really helped to extract some great ideas out of Lindsey, including the delicate guitar harmonics on "Oh Daddy" and "Silver Springs", which Lindsey wouldn't really explore much on his solo albums.

[jbrownsjr]

Originally Posted by FuzzyPlum

Also, as much as Lindsey's production skills are lauded, maybe we under-value what Richard and Ken also brought to the table. I like Lindsey solo albums but I find they too lack a bit of warmth.

Absolutely, engineering is important. And I think when you try to do everything, things slip thru the cracks.

[BigAl84]

Looking back, had Christine participated...it would have been one of the best later-career comeback albums of all time. With Christines material thrown into the mix, there would of been no shortage of strong material to pick from to have a 12-14 track album.

The lack of warmth due to her absence is even more pronounced due to the 18 track length of the album.

For me the biggest disappointment to this day is that version of Smile At You. I appreciate the fact that they went a complete 180 from the other versions of it, but it just lags (IMO). I wish they would have cut it similar to the prior versions and made the released version a bonus track on the deluxe version etc.

[jbrownsjr]

Originally Posted by BigAl84

Looking back, had Christine participated...it would have been one of the best later-career comeback albums of all time. With Christines material thrown into the mix, there would of been no shortage of strong material to pick from to have a 12-14 track album.

The lack of warmth due to her absence is even more pronounced due to the 18 track length of the album.

For me the biggest disappointment to this day is that version of Smile At You. I appreciate the fact that they went a complete 180 from the other versions of it, but it just lags (IMO). I wish they would have cut it similar to the prior versions and made the released version a bonus track on the deluxe version etc.

And had Christine participated, go to London and cut the album in 4 months.

Don't go to Lindsey's house. God, get out of the environment and give the album some flavor. Agreed, it has no flavor, connective tissue, or warmth.

[anusha]

I definitely agree -- Smile at You was such a murky synth heavy production, and it really didn't suit the song at all. I also was not a fan of Running in the Garden, but I think the song itself is just not my taste -- and it would have done better with Rock a Little or Other Side of the Mirror era production.

It is a paradox because I do think that these are the rare missteps that Lindsey has had with Stevie's songs as a producer. And, on the same album, Thrown Down and Destiny Rules are among the best work they've ever done together.

[Villavic]

Originally Posted by jbrownsjr

I remember I could recite this docu. haha

Take me there, Ken. Take me back.

I was 31 in 1997. At that moment it seemed to me that Rumours had appeared a long time ago. Now it's 2025. Say no more.