Fleetwood Mac on Dick Clark's *Primetime* New Year's Rockin' Eve

[dissention]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
If I found myself cringing while listening to something, I'd absolutely admit that, but it's simply not the case.

I was joking, which I thought the icon would indicate; obviously not.

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
Regarding the "voice crack" you hear on the second verse of "Running Through The Garden"... do you really think that, if it was not intentional, or at least welcomed, Stevie wouldn't have insisted on recording it again??
If you're recording an album and your voice cracked while singing one of the songs, wouldn't you insist on recording it again, given the potential for millions of people to hear it?.

The constant argument that everything is intentional when it comes to a criticism of a flaw in something Stevie does is getting rather old. If intentional, as you say, what purpose does it serve? If I was recording osmething and my voice cracked, it would depend on whether I wanted to fix it or if I thought it would serve the song. But I don't see where her cracking vocals on RTTG serve the song. Please explain.

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
Now regarding "Sorcerer"... if Pro Tools weren't used on "Sorcerer" (and that is one of the songs for which a Pro Tools engineer is not listed), then what kind of "major" studio aid would have helped Stevie hit those notes? And what would be the point of faking high-notes, when she could have just sung them in her normal range and no one would have ever questioned it?

I have no idea what helped her in reaching those notes, I'm not a technical aficianado when it comes to music; I have no clue. As for the other question, asked Sheryl Crow and Stevie Nicks, I don't know. But I think she had some help.

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
Of course she shied away from them on stage... they're not in her comfortable range. And these days she's not about to risk singing notes on stage that she has to work to hit, for fear that some nights she won't acheive them, and she'll be back to the days of receiving bad reviews for her voice.
But that's not saying she CAN'T hit them, or didn't hit them in a studio environment.

She shied away from doing it because she couldn't do it onstage and if she did, it certainly would not have sounded like it did on the album. And she still gets many negative remarks on her voice and lack of effort to do anything special with it. Like I said, I believe she hit them in the studio with a bit of help.

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
I also still have a hard time figuring out how anyone could find the vocal on "Thrown Down" to be "atrocious."
Compared to what?
If we're comparing the album versions and the "Wall of Sound" versions, her voice on the latter is more nasally, and she's singing deeper than she is on the former. Seems to me that most people... if choosing a preference... would pick the album version as the "better" vocal.

I told you why I found it atrocious: it's flat, monotonal, and grating. I still have a hard time figuring out how someone loves some of the RAL vocals and the vocals on WISYA. Compared to what? Maybe personal taste??? That's wonderful if everyone else likes the album version the most, but that's not the point, I don't and we were talking about personal taste. I like the vocals on the WOS version more because they're more interesting, she doesn't sound as bad, and, to these ears, they sound more passionate and not as emotionally absent.

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
I wonder if fans of artists such as Marianne Faithful and Bob Dylan have such dissective discussions about their voices, or if they just appreciate them for the things that make those voices unique.

I've had them. I can appreciate their voices, but I hear a vocal that is just so absolutely awful compared to good vocals from them that I've heard, I say so. If someone appreciates Babs' voice and she records a song whee she sings flatly throughout, don't you think they'll say something?

[stefan]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
And you have to figure, in many cases we're listening to Stevie actually writing the song, in "real time"... so of course, things will eventually get re-worked or discarded as the song takes shape.

That's a good point Johnny. And those demos probably were never supposed for public access.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by dissention
I was joking, which I thought the icon would indicate; obviously not.

I'm sorry, I assumed the laughing icon was meant to back up your remark that I (and other fans) would never admit that the vocals were bad.
I didn't realize the icon was used to lighten the entire statement.

Originally posted by dissention
The constant argument that everything is intentional when it comes to a criticism of a flaw in something Stevie does is getting rather old. If intentional, as you say, what purpose does it serve? If I was recording osmething and my voice cracked, it would depend on whether I wanted to fix it or if I thought it would serve the song. But I don't see where her cracking vocals on RTTG serve the song. Please explain.

I guess we're even then, because I'm tired of all the "flat," "droning," "monotone," "grating," criticisms, that are lobbed over and over... and then over again.
If my defense of Stevie's vocals has gotten old, it's every bit as old and tiring as the unending carping that goes on.
If you, or anyone else, is going to express their opinion, then I'm going to express mine.

As you said yourself, you wouldn't change your own "flawed" vocal, if you though it "served the song"... so doesn't that amount to it being "intentionally" left that way? What's the difference between what I said, and what you said? Other than wording?
They have the ability to record and re-record these vocals multiple times (God knows they don't work with a time-limit!), so if something is released to the world as it is, I'm left to believe it was "intentionally" used. They liked it, they wanted to keep it, and they did.
Period.

And this is Stevie's voice, pure and simple. We're not changing it, so why criticize it?
Yes, it's absolutely a matter of taste... but if someone doesn't like her voice more often than not, I don't understand why they bother continuing to listen.
This isn't directed at you specifically, but to anyone who seems to hate Stevie's voice more often than they actually like it. Both then and now.

If I don't like someone's voice, I just don't listen to their songs. I don't sit there and say, "they should do this or that."

But hey, I'm having these debates with someone whose screenname is "dissention"... so what did I expect?

[CarneVaca]

Dissention, I pretty much agree with your assessment. Besides, using Pro Tools to alter one's voice is pretty much an admission that you can't hit certain notes. Make no mistake about it: With Pro Tools an engineer can change pitch and alter notes. If you belt out an A instead of G, the softare will fix it. Is that really singing, then?

I like Stevie. I give her a lot of credit for cleaning up her act. I just can't listen to most of her new stuff, Goodbye Baby being a huge exception. And, man, what a beautiful song! Running Through the Garden has decent vocals, but the production is too 80s for me, so that could be Lindsey's fault.

Johnny Stew, Stevie could moo on tape and you'd still defend it to the death. Admit it. Nothing wrong with your fandom, my friend. In fact, I kind of admire how you stick up for her. The last thing I would want to do is discourage anyone from listening to something they like. So even when I knock Stevie's voice or songwriting, I am by no means trying to get people to not listen to her.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Dissention, I pretty much agree with your assessment. Besides, using Pro Tools to alter one's voice is pretty much an admission that you can't hit certain notes. Make no mistake about it: With Pro Tools an engineer can change pitch and alter notes. If you belt out an A instead of G, the softare will fix it. Is that really singing, then?

I like Stevie. I give her a lot of credit for cleaning up her act. I just can't listen to most of her new stuff, Goodbye Baby being a huge exception. And, man, what a beautiful song! Running Through the Garden has decent vocals, but the production is too 80s for me, so that could be Lindsey's fault.

Johnny Stew, Stevie could moo on tape and you'd still defend it to the death. Admit it. Nothing wrong with your fandom, my friend. In fact, I kind of admire how you stick up for her. The last thing I would want to do is discourage anyone from listening to something they like. So even when I knock Stevie's voice or songwriting, I am by no means trying to get people to not listen to her.

I forget which producer said it recently, but the fella said he hasn't yet worked with a singer who wasn't aided by Pro Tools. Maybe I can have my career in music after all!

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Stevie wouldn't, or hasn't, or didn't... I just wished to bring up another possibility... and that possibility is, that Pro Tools were used in some other capacity.
After all, fixing vocals is not their sole use.

They weren't necessarily used to "extensively" repair Stevie's voice, simply because the Pro Tools engineer receives a credit... as was stated by dissention.

I also wanted to make clear the fact that Pro Tools were apparently not used (given the lack of a Pro Tools engineer credit) on "Sorcerer," where Stevie is singing notes we don't usually hear from her.

Since dissention insisted that she couldn't have hit those notes without "major help," I wanted to present the other side of the argument.

CarneVaca, I realize I'm one of Stevie's most vocal "defenders" here (as if she really needs me or anyone to defend her), just as you're one of Lindsey's biggest defenders.
The one thing that should be understood though, is that I've never said, or hopefully even implied, that I think she's perfect or has done no wrong.

But when sweeping statements are made, or when opinions are offered in a tone that implies they're fact, I am going to offer a rebuttal of sorts.

As I've said in the past... probably many times by now... when I get enjoyment out of something, I don't put a lot of conditions upon it, or look at it with a cynical eye.
It's not that I have an unrealistic view of things, but life's just too damn short to be cynical and jaded all the time... especially when it comes to music, which is meant to be entertaining.
If something doesn't entertain me, I move on. I've been a Nicks die-hard for seventeen years now, and I haven't lost interest once... which unfortunately I can't say for most every other artist I've been a fan of over the years.

Now, as far as whether I would defend Stevie mooing on tape.... hmmm, I guess if I thought she was doing something experimental and avant garde, then I might defend it, sure.

By the way, I appreciated your comments about not meaning to discourage anyone from listening to something they like.

[wondergirl9847]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
Now, as far as whether I would defend Stevie mooing on tape.... hmmm, I guess if I thought she was doing something experimental and avant garde, then I might defend it, sure.

You both know that mooing is more Lindsey's kind of thing.

[dissention]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
And this is Stevie's voice, pure and simple. We're not changing it, so why criticize it?
Yes, it's absolutely a matter of taste... but if someone doesn't like her voice more often than not, I don't understand why they bother continuing to listen.
This isn't directed at you specifically, but to anyone who seems to hate Stevie's voice more often than they actually like it. Both then and now.

If I don't like someone's voice, I just don't listen to their songs. I don't sit there and say, "they should do this or that."

But hey, I'm having these debates with someone whose screenname is "dissention"... so what did I expect?

You don't seem to get my point, dude. It's not her voice that I'm taking issue with, it's how she decided to use it in certain songs. Thrown Down would be fantastic for me if she sang it differently and not so flatly and droning.

And I've never said I dislike her voice more often than not, that's putting words in my mouth. Actually, I don't believe I ever said I don't like her voice; quite the opposite, I think it's the best voice in music. I said I don't like some of the newer vocals, but that doesn't mean I don't get some kind of enjoyment out of the songs (with the exception of Thrown Down). Just because I love Stevie to death, it doesn't mean that I can't have criticisms of her and her work. After all, this is a message board where we discuss things about the band.

And, Johnny, were those icons at the end of your post supposed to lighten up your post?

[MACFAN]

The impression I have gotten from this thread is that Stevie has some very peculiar fans. They love her, yet she gets ripped to shreds for everything from her clothing to her singing? Song parodies about her clothing (some of them were pretty vicious to say the least), stating her singing is flat, droning etc..etc. Defending Stevie to non-fans is bad enough but to read some of these posts by fans is mortifying.

Personally I have to say that I love everything Stevie does, with the exception of wearing that god awful fur on the today show. And at first I was a little dismayed with the little button down jacket but it's not that bad and obviously she likes it. Call me crazy but Im just so happy with the fact that she did not kill herself years ago and that she is still here singing the **** out of songs in concert. Has her voice changed? Sure, so what!. People change with age it happens to everyone and we all know Stevie has always extensively toured over the years. Obviously I am a long time fan since around 1977/78 so maybe I am a little biased but I just can't stand to hear people knocking Stevie...it irritates me. Obviously we all have opinions and tastes but jeez Louise I thought we were fans.

Barbra Streisand although a technically perfect singer leave me quite cold. I find her singing nasal and whiny and that's why I am not a fan. And yes I do like other female singers besides Stevie, but to me Stevie's the real deal. The way she uses her voice is the way she uses her voice.

[SmthngOfADreamr]

Originally posted by MACFAN
The impression I have gotten from this thread is that Stevie has some very peculiar fans. They love her, yet she gets ripped to shreds for everything from her clothing to her singing? Song parodies about her clothing (some of them were pretty vicious to say the least), stating her singing is flat, droning etc..etc. Defending Stevie to non-fans is bad enough but to read some of these posts by fans is mortifying.

Personally I have to say that I love everything Stevie does, with the exception of wearing that god awful fur on the today show. And at first I was a little dismayed with the little button down jacket but it's not that bad and obviously she likes it. Call me crazy but Im just so happy with the fact that she did not kill herself years ago and that she is still here singing the **** out of songs in concert. Has her voice changed? Sure, so what!. People change with age it happens to everyone and we all know Stevie has always extensively toured over the years. Obviously I am a long time fan since around 1977/78 so maybe I am a little biased but I just can't stand to hear people knocking Stevie...it irritates me. Obviously we all have opinions and tastes but jeez Louise I thought we were fans.

Barbra Streisand although a technically perfect singer leave me quite cold. I find her singing nasal and whiny and that's why I am not a fan. And yes I do like other female singers besides Stevie, but to me Stevie's the real deal. The way she uses her voice is the way she uses her voice.

I think it's natural to be critical of the ones you love. You want them to be at their best/look their best/act their best/sing their best always. And what's the harm in sharing your opinion and letting others know when you think something's wrong??? Otherwise isn't it just blind idolotrious (sp?) worship?

[MACFAN]

There is a big difference between being critical and knocking/mocking someone. Leave the criticism to the professional critics, God knows Stevie has plenty of critics. I don't see myself as being a blind idol worshipper (there is no such word as idolotrious so I would'nt really concern myself with getting the spelling correct) just a fan. And over the years I have noticed that Stevie has some brutal critics in her own fan base.

[strandinthewind]

Does anyone here believe that any singer does NOT use pro-tools to augment/perfect their voice in this day and age - if so, I have a bridge in Brooklyn I have for sale that you might be interested in Having said that, Stevie said no pro tools were used during the recording of SYW. But, certainly LB used some vocal altering device on both of their voices.

So, I say the real test is the live performance. That, might I add, is where Stevie shines, esp. on this tour and esp. in "Beautiful Child" (sheebus). I have been to five concerts and she hit just about every note in every one of them.

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
Does anyone here believe that any singer does NOT use pro-tools to augment/perfect their voice in this day and age

I could give you lots of examples.

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by MACFAN
They love her, yet she gets ripped to shreds for everything from her clothing to her singing? Song parodies about her clothing (some of them were pretty vicious to say the least), stating her singing is flat, droning etc..etc. Defending Stevie to non-fans is bad enough but to read some of these posts by fans is mortifying.

Personally I have to say that I love everything Stevie does, with the exception of wearing that god awful fur on the today show. And at first I was a little dismayed with the little button down jacket ...

No comment necessary here.

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
I could give you lots of examples.

Fire Away

I submit they may not actually use that program, but they use some form of voice refining program/device, even if it is reverb. Even the devine Sara Mclaughlin (sp.?) admitted on the Rosie show to using Pro Tools.

Also, I have no problem with anyone using any type of studio device like this. My only issue is when they cannot reporduce it live, which I submit Stevie has demonstrated she can.

[dissention]

Originally posted by MACFAN
Personally I have to say that I love everything Stevie does

That one line speaks volumes.

It's fine that you disagree with some of the discussions, that's your right, but this is a message board after all. It's here to discuss the band and its members in every musical aspect.