Get Tusked

[bombaysaffires]

Originally Posted by David

There seems to be a personality clash with Lindsey and Ken. I think all the behavioral motives we’ve all proffered are strong possibilities for their estrangement. But I also think there’s a profound aesthetic or musical difference between the two, which happens to remind me of the musical difference between Lindsey and Stevie. Ken’s idea of a great rock song is Hot Blooded by Foreigner. Lindsey’s, not even close. It may seem reductive to some of you, but Foreigner seems emblematic of Ken’s aesthetic: radio-friendly, mainstream, “safe.” These aren’t driving factors in Lindsey’s art. Ken’s ex post facto musical concerns seem to boil down quite often to “I was right, it wasn’t a hit—radio didn’t like it.” It’s exactly the sort of opinion that Lindsey would have had no truck with, the sort of opinion that he spent his career either avoiding or confronting—in Mick, in Christine, in Stevie, in other musicians, in music execs, in the undiscerning public. When Ken writes about Lindsey—it’s been true for some time—he’s mordant and dismissive, as if he wanted to knock the “genius” off his high horse.

I’m going out on a limb here, but if Ken shared Lindsey’s much more adventurous tastes—if from the beginning he loved the Clash and the Talking Heads and the Ramones instead of Foreigner, and if he had been willing to view Fleetwood Mac in a bolder, riskier musical role—their working relationship from 1982 on might have been really different.

but he didn't, and he got fired, or just wasn't re-hired for subsequent work. That's how producing works, Ken, so get over it already. It's also like he seems to think the rest of the band was more on his side (musically, in the way you describe). I mean we know Stevie's been way more about sales figures than art in her solo career and Mick would have done Rumours 2, Rumours 3, Rumours 4 and so on. And Ken would have been happy with that too. It's like Ken blames Lindsey for somehow.....denying him his rightful place as the ongoing architect of FM's sound. I'm sure he sees Christine turning to him for her last solo album as confirmation of how much everyone else in the band was on his side. It was just that pesky SOB Lindsey who messed it all up.

[aleuzzi]

Originally Posted by bombaysaffires

but he didn't, and he got fired, or just wasn't re-hired for subsequent work. That's how producing works, Ken, so get over it already.

A good example of class is Keith Olsen, who is basically responsible for introducing LB and SN to Polydor and then to FM. His work on the white album was exceptional, but he wasn't asked back. From what I recall, Keith liked to prominently feature the bottom end, a point of contention between him and Lindsey once they began talks about Rumours. So, bye Keith. I've never heard him bitch about this.

For what it's worth, the prominent bottom end is what really draws me to the white album. John's creative bass lines really stand out, especially on "Blue Letter," "Rhiannon," "Over My Head," "Say Your Love Me, "Sugar Daddy, " and "World Turning."

And the drums--wow--"World Turning" and "So Afraid" are truly standouts because of Mick's work.

[bombaysaffires]

Originally Posted by aleuzzi

A good example of class is Keith Olsen, who is basically responsible for introducing LB and SN to Polydor and then to FM. His work on the white album was exceptional, but he wasn't asked back. From what I recall, Keith liked to prominently feature the bottom end, a point of contention between him and Lindsey once they began talks about Rumours. So, bye Keith. I've never heard him bitch about this.

For what it's worth, the prominent bottom end is what really draws me to the white album. John's creative bass lines really stand out, especially on "Blue Letter," "Rhiannon," "Over My Head," "Say Your Love Me, "Sugar Daddy, " and "World Turning."

And the drums--wow--"World Turning" and "So Afraid" are truly standouts because of Mick's work.

yes. John's playing grounds so many of Stevie's songs especially and gives them a depth they wouldn't otherwise have. I mean, the first couple bars of Dreams and you know what it is from that bass line and drums.
His playing makes Angel a thousand times more than what it is when she does it solo and the focus is on the keyboards. Rhiannon it goes without saying.

THat's my biggest bone of contention with LB's production. He slowly pushed the rhythm section further and further down in the mix. Even some of Chris's playing too.

[cbBen]

Originally Posted by bombaysaffires

THat's my biggest bone of contention with LB's production. He slowly pushed the rhythm section further and further down in the mix. Even some of Chris's playing too.

It's hard to disagree with this. At some point, they started sounding less like a band and more like Lindsey's toolkit. Don't get me wrong, I love the results. But on Say You Will, for example, Mick's drumming doesn't seem to be the same kind of essential ingredient as on the albums from the seventies.

One thing that helped puncture my "Lindsey's the greatest producer on planet earth" bubble was hearing the TISL outtake version of "Thrown Down." I found myself astounded to wonder, "Could this be better than the version Lindsey produced"? It's a rare instance where we have an A-to-B comparison of how two different producers handle the same song; and the Lindsey-produced version, while perhaps better (I don't feel strongly one way or the other), is in any case not a clear far-and-away improvement.

[elle]

Originally Posted by cbBen

One thing that helped puncture my "Lindsey's the greatest producer on planet earth" bubble was hearing the TISL outtake version of "Thrown Down." I found myself astounded to wonder, "Could this be better than the version Lindsey produced"? It's a rare instance where we have an A-to-B comparison of how two different producers handle the same song; and the Lindsey-produced version, while perhaps better (I don't feel strongly one way or the other), is in any case not a clear far-and-away improvement.

weren't people here saying that BOTH those versions were arranged and produced by Lindsey? and most seem to like TISL (was it wall of sound?) version better?

SYW version sounds to me like it was produced by Ken, tbh (it's not).

[cbBen]

Originally Posted by elle

weren't people here saying that BOTH those versions were arranged and produced by Lindsey?

This would be news to me. I'd love to know.

They are so different, but maybe that's due to the mix rather than to the production.

Lindsey may made the wrong call by going with Needham over Lord-Alge to mix Say You Will. The reason he gives in Destiny Rules (that Lord-Alge, being so in demand, works too quickly) does not make sense. It does not follow that someone will do a better job just because they take longer to do it. Maybe Lord-Alge being in demand is a sign that he does good work, regardless of how quickly he does it.

[elle]

Originally Posted by cbBen

This would be news to me. I'd love to know.

They are so different, but maybe that's due to the mix rather than to the production.

Lindsey may made the wrong call by going with Needham over Lord-Alge to mix Say You Will. The reason he gives in Destiny Rules (that Lord-Alge, being so in demand, works too quickly) does not make sense. It does not follow that someone will do a better job just because they take longer to do it. Maybe Lord-Alge being in demand is a sign that he does good work, regardless of how quickly he does it.

i think DR may paint a distorted picture of these 2 engineers. they are both incredibly accomplished and have tons of work under their belt, especially Needham:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Needham (he mixed/produced breakthrough albums by The Killers, Imagine Dragons, and Walk the Moon, among many others, his discography is impressive)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Lord-Alge (he mixed American Idiot by Green Day)

i think what's under the surface of that argument is your regular push-pull between Stevie and Lindsey - Needham is Lindsey's pick, he has been working with him continuously before and after (he mixed BuckVie and i believe Solo Anthology, most recently), while Lord-Alge is Stevie's pick, she has worked with him a lot. Lindsey =was a producer and wanted someone whose work he liked and was in sync with. Stevie wanted leverage against Lindsey so she wanted her guy. the rest are all excuses.

[jbrownsjr]

Originally Posted by aleuzzi

A good example of class is Keith Olsen, who is basically responsible for introducing LB and SN to Polydor and then to FM. His work on the white album was exceptional, but he wasn't asked back. From what I recall, Keith liked to prominently feature the bottom end, a point of contention between him and Lindsey once they began talks about Rumours. So, bye Keith. I've never heard him bitch about this.

For what it's worth, the prominent bottom end is what really draws me to the white album. John's creative bass lines really stand out, especially on "Blue Letter," "Rhiannon," "Over My Head," "Say Your Love Me, "Sugar Daddy, " and "World Turning."

And the drums--wow--"World Turning" and "So Afraid" are truly standouts because of Mick's work.

Don't forget that walking bass in Crystal. Whomever decided to put the keyboard solo with that walking bass line... Genius! and then it fades like the "sea".

[aleuzzi]

Originally Posted by jbrownsjr

Don't forget that walking bass in Crystal. Whomever decided to put the keyboard solo with that walking bass line... Genius! and then it fades like the "sea".

It's one of the band's best instrumental moments on record. A real feature for the McVies.

[jbrownsjr]

Originally Posted by aleuzzi

It's one of the band's best instrumental moments on record. A real feature for the McVies.

A McVie moment on a B/N tune!!! shhhh You'll upset people that think the band is Lindsey and Stevie.

[David]

I actually bought this book yesterday and I finished it last night. Sure, it has some good juicy stuff, even if the narrative is obviously constructed in a cheesy, after-the-fact approach. But the flaws are threefold for this sort of book:

• The photos are blurry or fuzzy or just stupid. Can’t you find some better photos from a year in the studio? How about check Tumblr? Or call Peter Beard for tearsheets.

• We’re not interested in your love life or your immigration story or your shenanigans around town if Fleetwood Mac weren’t involved. Way too much space is given to such claptrap. If you didn’t feel like writing more about Fleetwood Mac (or couldn’t remember anything else to add), shorten your damn book and lower the price a little. Don’t pad it with your personal detritus. Start a blog instead.

• Last but most important, you’re both longtime studio engineers but the rest of us are not. This book is absolutely filled with techno-geek jargon that probably 99 percent of us don’t understand. Why didn’t you bother paraphrasing some of this recording verbiage into something that would mean something to us readers? Are you just showing off your knowledge? There were so many times I wanted to hear a clear, straightforward description of the technology and the approach (for example, mic setup or instrument placement around the room) for certain songs but couldn’t wade through the clotted undergrowth of your pseudodescriptive language. It was pretentious. I have a pretty good background in music theory, can read staff notation, and play an instrument, but I couldn’t understand you 75 percent of the time you were discussing the songs or the studio. “Let’s put the amp in the iso room with two close mics on it.” Uhh, sure.

I give this book a 5 out of 10. The Rumours book is arriving next.

[sleepless child]

You'll enjoy the Rumours book better. For some reason, my book doesn't have photos. I bought it on Nook and I'm reading through it. I'm not sure why I have no photos. But it seems they are not that great anyway.