Who Has Given Up ??

[David]

Originally Posted by BigAl84

And all of these decisions were ones she made. Whoever it was who told her 20 years ago that she didn't have to work that hard, just tour your back catalog,you don't need to create new music, she really took to that piece of advice.

I loved hearing Stevie sing on her first three tours, her 1994 tour, and maybe a little of her 1998 tour. But only her first tour was really a stretch for her conceptually. For the first time ever, she and her band had to figure out a way to present her for a complete show, and they were creative and successful. They built a strong set featuring nearly all of her new album, some key Mac hits, a movie soundtrack song, a first-time-ever cover, and even an unreleased song. They created a sort of narrative arc, too—we take certain things for granted nowadays like the use of Edge of Seventeen as a set closer and Rhiannon as an encore, but that practice had to be imagined for the first time in 1981. The Mac songs were many of them inventively treated musically, like Angel and Rhiannon and Gold Dust Woman—the Mac versions were obviously not used as blueprints.

But the 1983 tour (which I loved for its amazing drugged-up passion and conviction and sense of liberation) was, structurally, a note-for-note repeat of the 1981 tour. It was at that point that Lindsey's criticism of the lounge act was made and it was accurate. Bad news after that, too: virtually every tour afterward was more or less a repeat of the 1981 creation—with a couple of new songs tossed in to indicate that, yes, we are promoting the newest album.

This last tour with Chrissie Hynde was remarkable for its differences from the old formula. Stevie went out on a limb again and tried to create a new show. Props to her (at least from me). Unfortunately, by that time, she had singing problems.

I can't think of many elements of all her tours that were really new or that really tried to present her from a different angle. Even her toying with the orchestra in Melbourne was unsurprising—lots of acts had done that by that time.

Those of you who have heard all the old audience recordings of old shows probably remember hearing Stevie make onstage jokes and comments about "just me and a piano." Imagine her ever actually having the guts to do that. Well, Lindsey did that, right? Not even a piano, just him and his guitar. There isn't a chance in hell Stevie would ever be that bold and shake up her formula to that degree. From Lindsey's guitar army, with its intricately planned orchestrations and precision, to his solo guitar tour, Lindsey is no lounge act. She has been one for a long time, a very successful, beloved lounge act. That's what makes you a lounge act: the habit of repeating your old successes in the old frames of reference year after year—never trying to recreate yourself or the impressions you're making on the audience.

[BigAl84]

Nice points, David!

I actually have a similar observation for Fleetwood Mac. I loved how there was some differences in guitar tones and keyboards used on the Mirage Tour and Even TITN. The Rumours, Tusk, Mirage, and Tango tours all had some different musical elements to help them sound different than the last tour - not to mention things like that guitar solo during Rhiannon that has been missing for 20 years.

Ever since the Dance, although song titles have come and gone out of the set, the overall sound/tone and arrangements of the live music have been very similar, in my opinion.

Regarding Stevie - I was personally never a fan of her '81 arrangements of Fleetwood Mac tunes - the synths on Sara etc. Although, that was a different time and it may have sounded more current at the time. I do give her credit for not trying to replicate the FM arrangements verbatim.

This ties into my thought on the current lineup - Mike Campbell views it as playing homage to Lindsey by trying to stick to his parts (and I respect that), but I would actually find it more interesting to see him dive into the songs the way he would if asked to interpret it or cover it. He kind of runs in this middle space that comes across awkward, just my opinion.

[singertobe]

So I'm almost done reading Mick's first autobiography (currently in the middle of chapter 9 of 10) and I thought it was really sweet of him to try and help all the former Mac members with their careers, even if it didn't work out like with Peter Green. Why is he not doing that now with Lindsey? What changed between the man he was then and the man he has become today.

Also, I'm gonna be reading Ken's autobiography after I'm done with this and then move on to Ray's. This is all part of my attempt to understand Lindsey's personality and hopefully try to find some missing link that will tell us all why this has happened.

[SteveMacD]

Originally Posted by singertobe

So I'm almost done reading Mick's first autobiography (currently in the middle of chapter 9 of 10)

Ironically, he was in the middle of Chapter 11 when he wrote it.

[singertobe]

Originally Posted by SteveMacD

Ironically, he was in the middle of Chapter 11 when he wrote it.

I just finished it an hour ago. It was so strange to read about Stevie crying over Lindsey leaving the band knowing what's happened now. I'm gonna start Ken's book tomorrow. I'm determined to find out what could've gone down to make them fire Lindsey.

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by singertobe

I just finished it an hour ago. It was so strange to read about Stevie crying over Lindsey leaving the band knowing what's happened now. I'm gonna start Ken's book tomorrow. I'm determined to find out what could've gone down to make them fire Lindsey.

Neither Ken or Ray’s book will give you any clue about that.

[bombaysaffires]

Originally Posted by singertobe

So I'm almost done reading Mick's first autobiography (currently in the middle of chapter 9 of 10) and I thought it was really sweet of him to try and help all the former Mac members with their careers, even if it didn't work out like with Peter Green. Why is he not doing that now with Lindsey? What changed between the man he was then and the man he has become today.

Also, I'm gonna be reading Ken's autobiography after I'm done with this and then move on to Ray's. This is all part of my attempt to understand Lindsey's personality and hopefully try to find some missing link that will tell us all why this has happened.

You should actually be reading it all in an attempt to understand *Stevie's* personality and try to find the link that tells us why this happened. She was the driver behind it, as is now acknowledged publicly by the band themselves. Then maybe you can tell Lindsey what you find, because he claims to not know either.

[bombaysaffires]

Originally Posted by mitzo

I wish she had paid as much attention to recording as to touring, especially as her abilities fade with age and overuse. Her solo output is weak in quantity and, often, quality. Her real legacy will be the recordings and not the tours, sadly.

Originally Posted by BigAl84

And all of these decisions were ones she made. Whoever it was who told her 20 years ago that she didn't have to work that hard, just tour your back catalog,you don't need to create new music, she really took to that piece of advice. For her, that was probably the worst thing somebody could of told her as she has always needed a strong nudge and support from others to get new music across the finish line.

In turn, it shifted her focus from being an active artist to primarily focusing on peddling the persona and image of herself that was is largely rooted in the work of prior decades. There are one of two routes that people tend to go. She spent a considerable amount of time developing her catalog of work and personal image as a brand and primarily focused on driving that brand out into the market. Sadly, IMO a huge part of that persona has been cemented or centered around playing Rhiannon (or similar) in hockey arenas. Playing that image in front of the largest common denominator.

Lindsey went the other route. He spent more time in the studio. More time developing his work, less time preoccupied with selling an image or himself as a brand. This is why his guitar playing is often described as "iconic" but there isn't this visual iconic image that is associated with him. For fans it is that turner guitar and style/tone of playing.

Originally Posted by David

I loved hearing Stevie sing on her first three tours, her 1994 tour, and maybe a little of her 1998 tour. But only her first tour was really a stretch for her conceptually. For the first time ever, she and her band had to figure out a way to present her for a complete show, and they were creative and successful. They built a strong set featuring nearly all of her new album, some key Mac hits, a movie soundtrack song, a first-time-ever cover, and even an unreleased song. They created a sort of narrative arc, too—we take certain things for granted nowadays like the use of Edge of Seventeen as a set closer and Rhiannon as an encore, but that practice had to be imagined for the first time in 1981. The Mac songs were many of them inventively treated musically, like Angel and Rhiannon and Gold Dust Woman—the Mac versions were obviously not used as blueprints.

But the 1983 tour (which I loved for its amazing drugged-up passion and conviction and sense of liberation) was, structurally, a note-for-note repeat of the 1981 tour. It was at that point that Lindsey's criticism of the lounge act was made and it was accurate. Bad news after that, too: virtually every tour afterward was more or less a repeat of the 1981 creation—with a couple of new songs tossed in to indicate that, yes, we are promoting the newest album.

This last tour with Chrissie Hynde was remarkable for its differences from the old formula. Stevie went out on a limb again and tried to create a new show. Props to her (at least from me). Unfortunately, by that time, she had singing problems.

I can't think of many elements of all her tours that were really new or that really tried to present her from a different angle. Even her toying with the orchestra in Melbourne was unsurprising—lots of acts had done that by that time.

Those of you who have heard all the old audience recordings of old shows probably remember hearing Stevie make onstage jokes and comments about "just me and a piano." Imagine her ever actually having the guts to do that. Well, Lindsey did that, right? Not even a piano, just him and his guitar. There isn't a chance in hell Stevie would ever be that bold and shake up her formula to that degree. From Lindsey's guitar army, with its intricately planned orchestrations and precision, to his solo guitar tour, Lindsey is no lounge act. She has been one for a long time, a very successful, beloved lounge act. That's what makes you a lounge act: the habit of repeating your old successes in the old frames of reference year after year—never trying to recreate yourself or the impressions you're making on the audience.

Yes, yes, and yes.

[David]

Originally Posted by BigAl84

Ever since the Dance, although song titles have come and gone out of the set, the overall sound/tone and arrangements of the live music have been very similar, in my opinion.

Yeah, I defy anyone to listen to a recording of The Chain or Dreams from 2003, 2009, and 2013, and tell me which is which. We used to be able to do just that listening to a song from 1975, 1977, 1978, 1979, 1980, and 1982, and could even identify (just based on listening) at which point in a long tour it was done. (Many of us can easily tell the difference between any number of songs they played on the first leg of the Tusk tour, the middle, European leg, and the final US leg. I don't think people can do that anymore with the past twenty or so years, maybe even stretching back to the 1987 touring band.)

Originally Posted by BigAl84

Regarding Stevie - I was personally never a fan of her '81 arrangements of Fleetwood Mac tunes - the synths on Sara etc. Although, that was a different time and it may have sounded more current at the time. I do give her credit for not trying to replicate the FM arrangements verbatim.

I'd have to agree. I don't consider what Stevie did in 1981 to, say, Angel or Gold Dust Woman necessarily superior to what Fleetwood did with the studio tracks. But the direction was the right direction to go in: Get in there and re-envision them, and take big liberties with the familiar. Angel, for example, from the Nicks touring band in 1981 is virtually an entirely new song. Its tone, its atmosphere, its tempo, its emotional palette are all entirely different from the Mac recording. Same with Gold Dust Woman. You've got to appreciate the 1981 tour as a primal creative force and a lasting one, because arrangements and other formalist treatment decisions stuck with Stevie and her subsequent solo bands to this day, even despite constantly changing players.

Despite Stevie's successes in 1981, you have to give Lindsey the edge in this realm. His live solo arrangement of Big Love, which we're so sick of today, so completely displaced his earlier studio version that most people don't even think about the earlier version when they think of the song. You mention Big Love to people and they're going to think of the solo guitar version. The later one completely superseded the earlier. That treatment also had a huge influence on his successive solo albums, which he talked about plenty of times in interviews: getting back to his guitar "center" and writing an arrangement that swirled around his specialty modified Travis picking. He has dozens of studio songs that are musical mirrors of what he did with Big Love in 1993. (In fact, some of us may wish he had not been quite so insistent with that style, and had developed some other ideas.)

[BlueLantern]

Another longtime fan here who has, sadly, let go. I still love the music and cherish all the years of being a fan. But that’s nostalgia now.

It’s not just the shameful way things went down. It’s that coupled with the fact that these people are now old verging on elderly. It does not surprise me to read that some recent dates got canceled due to illness; this is now an old, old band. I knew back in 2014 that it was a rare alignment, that tour, to have all 5 Rumours-era band members reunited and touring and sounding quite good (although predictable). Lots of fans knew it; that Fleetwood Mac tour might be the last “real” one, ever, for devoted fans.

And it was. Thanks for all the love and all the good memories. Moving on.

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by BlueLantern

Another longtime fan here who has, sadly, let go. I still love the music and cherish all the years of being a fan. But that’s nostalgia now.

It’s not just the shameful way things went down. It’s that coupled with the fact that these people are now old verging on elderly. It does not surprise me to read that some recent dates got canceled due to illness; this is now an old, old band.

You are right of course, about their age. But we know that even 10 years ago they would’ve canceled a few dates because of illness. Someone’s voice goes out, someone truly gets ill or sometimes they just don’t sell enough tickets, so they blame it on illness. That has been happening for years.

But it is precisely because of their age, and imminent nursing care and deaths, that what has happened is so traumatic and irredeemable.

[button-lip]

Originally Posted by michelej1

You are right of course, about their age. But we know that even 10 years ago they would’ve canceled a few dates because of illness. Someone’s voice goes out, someone truly gets ill or sometimes they just don’t sell enough tickets, so they blame it on illness. That has been happening for years.

But it is precisely because of their age, and imminent nursing care and deaths, that what has happened is so traumatic and irredeemable.

After 15 months of drama, I only hope he could heal properly, both physically and mentally. The latter will be probably the hardest one.

[elle]

Originally Posted by button-lip

After 15 months of drama, I only hope he could heal properly, both physically and mentally. The latter will be probably the hardest one.

i really hope he's not even seeing any of the crap going on.

was so looking forward to fakewoods moving out of my area, finally. ito be done with their tour and their stupid disrespectful advertising. they were supposed to be gone outta here this week. yet now they still have to remake 2 shows around here (maybe they'll be cancelled?) and then they are now apparently being poor men's replacement for the Stones at the jazzfest.

i wanna move on. i want to get over it. but they keep adding insults to injury.

[SteveMacD]

Originally Posted by David

Despite Stevie's successes in 1981, you have to give Lindsey the edge in this realm. His live solo arrangement of Big Love,

Huh? That and “Go Insane” were pretty much it. Lindsey’s arrangements of NGBA, “I’m So Afraid,” “The Chain,” GYOW, and SMAP were pretty much identical to the Fleetwood Mac arrangements. Same for SHN and “World Turning” in 2006. He was certainly no Richard Thompson in that regard.

In fact, some of us may wish he had not been quite so insistent with that style, and had developed some other ideas.

This.

[Nicks Fan]

Originally Posted by David

I loved hearing Stevie sing on her first three tours, her 1994 tour, and maybe a little of her 1998 tour. But only her first tour was really a stretch for her conceptually. For the first time ever, she and her band had to figure out a way to present her for a complete show, and they were creative and successful. They built a strong set featuring nearly all of her new album, some key Mac hits, a movie soundtrack song, a first-time-ever cover, and even an unreleased song. They created a sort of narrative arc, too—we take certain things for granted nowadays like the use of Edge of Seventeen as a set closer and Rhiannon as an encore, but that practice had to be imagined for the first time in 1981. The Mac songs were many of them inventively treated musically, like Angel and Rhiannon and Gold Dust Woman—the Mac versions were obviously not used as blueprints.

But the 1983 tour (which I loved for its amazing drugged-up passion and conviction and sense of liberation) was, structurally, a note-for-note repeat of the 1981 tour. It was at that point that Lindsey's criticism of the lounge act was made and it was accurate. Bad news after that, too: virtually every tour afterward was more or less a repeat of the 1981 creation—with a couple of new songs tossed in to indicate that, yes, we are promoting the newest album.

This last tour with Chrissie Hynde was remarkable for its differences from the old formula. Stevie went out on a limb again and tried to create a new show. Props to her (at least from me). Unfortunately, by that time, she had singing problems.

I can't think of many elements of all her tours that were really new or that really tried to present her from a different angle. Even her toying with the orchestra in Melbourne was unsurprising—lots of acts had done that by that time.

Those of you who have heard all the old audience recordings of old shows probably remember hearing Stevie make onstage jokes and comments about "just me and a piano." Imagine her ever actually having the guts to do that. Well, Lindsey did that, right? Not even a piano, just him and his guitar. There isn't a chance in hell Stevie would ever be that bold and shake up her formula to that degree. From Lindsey's guitar army, with its intricately planned orchestrations and precision, to his solo guitar tour, Lindsey is no lounge act. She has been one for a long time, a very successful, beloved lounge act. That's what makes you a lounge act: the habit of repeating your old successes in the old frames of reference year after year—never trying to recreate yourself or the impressions you're making on the audience.

100 Percent agree. I loved the last SN solo tour. The vocals were not great but it wasn't awful either. I liked that she tried to present something different. FM has sadly for years presented the same type of show in that they play the same 12-15 songs a night in virtually the exact same way while throwing 4-7 deep cuts for us die hard fans. I would be shocked if they went on tour and dropped all the support players and just performed as is and had no backing musicians. Same with SN. I doubt she would ever tour solo acoustic because she couldn't pull it off. She can play piano and guitar but her abilities are of a more basic nature. I couldn't see her doing an insane guitar or Piano solo. Melissa Etheridge has done multiple acoustic tours where she plays piano and guitar and plays them very well.