a difficult bugger?

[sodascouts]

Originally Posted by SteveMacD

The thing I found curious was that Stevie came to the sessions with fully flushed out demos and was upset by the way Lindsey deviated from them. Stevie, Christine, and Lindsey have all consistently stated over the decades that one of Lindsey’s biggest strengths was taking something completely rudimentary from Stevie (I believe Christine called it “rubbish”) and turning it into something spectacular. That’s always been the way he’s looked at his role in the band. It seems a little bizarre that she went into the sessions that way, especially knowing the core of Lindsey’s material was culled from songs he/they had been working on for at least six years. All three guys, not just Lindsey, seemed a little put off by it.

Another problem is that Lindsey's on a different page than Stevie now musically, and has been for quite some time, when it comes to "sound." He often likes to make things sound unnatural - manipulated vocals, sped up guitar parts, sound effects, etc... she's not into that. Back in the day, his suggestions involved adding interesting harmonies, bridges, guitar parts... but in the recent era, they might also include adding bizarre stuff like the freaky manipulated voice echoing that "What I saw on this journey" verse in "Illume." That was definitely.... different.... and not very "Stevie." So I can kind of see where she might be a little nervous.

On the other hand, she made him promise to leave "Without You" alone and he did... and I think it would have benefited from some tweaking in its arrangement! Not by adding gimmicks, mind you, but by finding ways to make it less repetitive. Lindsey could have helped her with that. These people need to find middle ground!

[Iamwilliame]

Originally Posted by sodascouts

Another problem is that Lindsey's on a different page than Stevie now musically, and has been for quite some time, when it comes to "sound." He often likes to make things sound unnatural - manipulated vocals, sped up guitar parts, sound effects, etc... she's not into that. Back in the day, his suggestions involved adding interesting harmonies, bridges, guitar parts... but in the recent era, they might also include adding bizarre stuff like the freaky manipulated voice echoing that "What I saw on this journey" verse in "Illume." That was definitely.... different.... and not very "Stevie." So I can kind of see where she might be a little nervous.

On the other hand, she made him promise to leave "Without You" alone and he did... and I think it would have benefited from some tweaking in its arrangement! Not by adding gimmicks, mind you, but by finding ways to make it less repetitive. Lindsey could have helped her with that. These people need to find middle ground!

This right here is the best explanation of their musical relationship. Lindsey is not the same producer he was 35 years ago. He is set in his ways now just as much as Stevie is. I also find his production style way too artificial at times.

[elle]

Originally Posted by Iamwilliame

This right here is the best explanation of their musical relationship. Lindsey is not the same producer he was 35 years ago. He is set in his ways now just as much as Stevie is. I also find his production style way too artificial at times.

agree, they both developed in different directions.

Originally Posted by bombaysaffires

Stevie began working out her songs with other people right after she and Lindsey broke up. She realized that relying on him for that created a real power imbalance, and made her dependent on someone who for quite a while didn't always have the best intentions towards her music. Once she went solo, she did this even more. People often confuse *songwriting* demos which are just her recording herself during the raw writing process, and then getting a complete start-to-finish performance of what she's written with a demo of how you want the finished song to sound. She used to just do her songwriting demo and hand it off to Lindsey for the most part. For many years now, since going solo, she will work with other musicians to record a more arranged version of the song. She did this because she felt frustrated that often the way her songs came out working with Lindsey wasn't what she wanted. As you could see in her film with Dave Stewart, Stevie evolved into wanting and getting more control over the arrangement of her songs over time and that's been the case even when working on solo albums with Jimmy. That's why they would argue in the studio.

So I wasn't at all surprised that she brought fleshed out demos to the band. She had clear ideas about how she wanted those songs to go. She's not obligated to give him a raw songwriting demo. They're her songs. As a producer he should respect how the writer wants a song to go-- in fact that's exactly the job of a producer, to help an artist get their vision out to the world. Just because in the early days she was lazier, or less inclined to fight with him while they were a couple or didn't have the years and years of experience in the studio that she has now doesn't mean she has to still work that way. Let's not forget how many albums she's done, she's not totally clueless about how different recording techniques work and how to get some of the sound she wants.

i enjoyed reading this and i think it explains many things, as both soda and iamwilliame said. while Stevie's early days song ideas were heavily dependent on Lindsey fleshing them out, with her growth as an artist she now has ideas for a complete song sound which are very different than what he might do.

this all means that what many fans want from the Mac - collaborating and building songs together from rudimentary song ideas - while seem to be working better than ever with songs that originate from either Lindsey or Christine, ending in numerous co-writes on BuckVie, does not seem like something Stevie is interesed in doing with the Mac anymore. and it doesn't sound like she's interested in adding to other members' songs either - remember back in 2012 Lindsey brought to the Mac bunch of his own rudimentary song ideas so they can build them all together. several years later Chris took several of those and made them into songs like Too Far Gone and Red Sun.

[bombaysaffires]

Originally Posted by elle

agree, they both developed in different directions.



i enjoyed reading this and i think it explains many things, as both soda and iamwilliame said. while Stevie's early days song ideas were heavily dependent on Lindsey fleshing them out, with her growth as an artist she now has ideas for a complete song sound which are very different than what he might do.

this all means that what many fans want from the Mac - collaborating and building songs together from rudimentary song ideas - while seem to be working better than ever with songs that originate from either Lindsey or Christine, ending in numerous co-writes on BuckVie, does not seem like something Stevie is interesed in doing with the Mac anymore. and it doesn't sound like she's interested in adding to other members' songs either - remember back in 2012 Lindsey brought to the Mac bunch of his own rudimentary song ideas so they can build them all together. several years later Chris took several of those and made them into songs like Too Far Gone and Red Sun.

songwriting demos is much the same meaning as "roughs" which Lindsey uses to refer to the recordings Chris sent him from England of the early basic versions of her songs when she first was reaching out and first rejoined the band. I just watched the 'making of' video of the BuckVie album the other day for the first time in a long time.....so cool.

[jbrownsjr]

Originally Posted by bombaysaffires

songwriting demos is much the same meaning as "roughs" which Lindsey uses to refer to the recordings Chris sent him from England of the early basic versions of her songs when she first was reaching out and first rejoined the band. I just watched the 'making of' video of the BuckVie album the other day for the first time in a long time.....so cool.

Every time I watch that video I get tears. Like seeing an old friend after so many years. Now, I gotta go watch it.

[HomerMcvie]

Originally Posted by jbrownsjr

Every time I watch that video I get tears. Like seeing an old friend after so many years. Now, I gotta go watch it.

I cried several times watching my BuckVie shows. The band of my life is winding down, and that makes me terribly sad...

And I'm getting older, too...

[ricohv]

Originally Posted by sodascouts

Another problem is that Lindsey's on a different page than Stevie now musically, and has been for quite some time, when it comes to "sound." He often likes to make things sound unnatural - manipulated vocals, sped up guitar parts, sound effects, etc... she's not into that. Back in the day, his suggestions involved adding interesting harmonies, bridges, guitar parts... but in the recent era, they might also include adding bizarre stuff like the freaky manipulated voice echoing that "What I saw on this journey" verse in "Illume." That was definitely.... different.... and not very "Stevie." So I can kind of see where she might be a little nervous.

On the other hand, she made him promise to leave "Without You" alone and he did... and I think it would have benefited from some tweaking in its arrangement! Not by adding gimmicks, mind you, but by finding ways to make it less repetitive. Lindsey could have helped her with that. These people need to find middle ground!

This is one of the most insightful things I've read in regards to Lindsey & Stevie in a long time. And I hadn't really considered it. Lindsey's production has evolved in a way that doesn't seem to fit Stevie's style. And she still needs a good producer's help, but maybe in a more organic way. Dave Stewart did it successfully on In Your Dreams but turned 24k Gold into a hot production mess, JMHO!

[jwd]

I used to get so defensive about Stevie. I really don't care what anyone says about her anymore. Actually I have fun with it and just chime in. All the members of the band have something you can make fun of. Stevie just gets the bulk of it, because you know the biggest stars always take the most heat. did I just say that?

[jbrownsjr]

Originally Posted by jwd

I used to get so defensive about Stevie. I really don't care what anyone says about her anymore. Actually I have fun with it and just chime in. All the members of the band have something you can make fun of. Stevie just gets the bulk of it, because you know the biggest stars always take the most heat. did I just say that?

You did!!!

[lbfan]

Originally Posted by sodascouts

Another problem is that Lindsey's on a different page than Stevie now musically, and has been for quite some time, when it comes to "sound." He often likes to make things sound unnatural - manipulated vocals, sped up guitar parts, sound effects, etc... she's not into that. Back in the day, his suggestions involved adding interesting harmonies, bridges, guitar parts... but in the recent era, they might also include adding bizarre stuff like the freaky manipulated voice echoing that "What I saw on this journey" verse in "Illume." That was definitely.... different.... and not very "Stevie." So I can kind of see where she might be a little nervous.

On the other hand, she made him promise to leave "Without You" alone and he did... and I think it would have benefited from some tweaking in its arrangement! Not by adding gimmicks, mind you, but by finding ways to make it less repetitive. Lindsey could have helped her with that. These people need to find middle ground!

The obvious exception from back in the day (that apparently Stevie did like) is Gold Dust Woman which included breaking glass and stressed out shrieks (reference Rumours Classic Albums video). Lindsey has always pushed the envelope, but in in the best interest of the song production, not only with his own songs, but with others as well. For example, on the Buckingham McVie CD - Christine discussed the “liberties he took” on Feel About You, which she liked, but it was different than what she anticipated. For me personally, that is the “Fleetwood Mac sound” that is classic and timeless. I can’t imagine Gold Dust Woman, or Landslide, or any other FM song any other way than it was produced. Lindsey deserves the lion share of the credit (or blame depending on your perspective) for the outcome of the songs.

[FuzzyPlum]

Lindsey is a visionary producer- I get that. He's a talented guy.
But I wonder whether he's been elevated a bit too high with regards to those early albums. He wasn't originally given the credit as producer but now I think it might have gone a bit far the other way.

Richard Dashut & Ken Caillat...and even Keith Olsen. Those guys had a major impact on The Mac sound.

As far as In Your Dreams- I think it was a bit bland, so, yeah I'd have welcomed some of Lindsey's quirks.
Feel About You- I get what he was aiming for, but I'd love to hear a stripped back version. I think he just missed the mark a bit.

[elle]

Originally Posted by FuzzyPlum

Lindsey is a visionary producer- I get that. He's a talented guy.
But I wonder whether he's been elevated a bit too high with regards to those early albums. He wasn't originally given the credit as producer but now I think it might have gone a bit far the other way.

he may get the credit now, the other guys still get the money so i suspect they are all good!