Which two albums represent Lindsey's best Fleetwood Mac work?

[Dex]

Originally Posted by bethelblues

Though I know some of you may view it as the easy choice, I'm shocked more people haven't voted for Rumours. Has Lindsey ever really surpassed his work on that album?? Really???

Absolutely, yes.

Rumours has Lindsey offering absolutely perfect pop songs, but that isn't really what we're discussing here. And I'm thrilled more people than expected are recognizing the sheer creativity and passion he displays on Say You Will.

[bethelblues]

Originally Posted by Dex

Absolutely, yes.

Rumours has Lindsey offering absolutely perfect pop songs, but that isn't really what we're discussing here. And I'm thrilled more people than expected are recognizing the sheer creativity and passion he displays on Say You Will.

You know, that is the same reason people have given to Dreams not being one of Stevie's best songs, saying it's a perfect pop song but not representative of Stevie's best work. I think that sentiment is rooted in the fact that it is played so often it now seems stale, not fresh or alive anymore. As I've argued that that studio recording perhaps captures the three voices of the lead singers together better than any other song while also giving a nod to the earlier blues roots of the band, I have to also disagree with regard to Lindsey's songs. I don't want to reduce them down to whether they're pop or rock and roll or artistically successful or whatever, they are great songs and there is a reason they continue to be played today. I'm glad OnIce mentioned The Chain, which I forgot. Lindsey's guitar work on that song is notable and is as important to the searing power of the record as Stevie's lyrics. I welcome that Go Your Own Way, The Chain, Never Going Back Again, and Second Hand News are considered rock classics and I see them as among his best work, even if it's not considered the cool choice. While Lindsey wanted to separate himself from that sound and not limit himself, he wasn't always successful in subsequent albums, including Tusk. And I think Say You Will, though it may have some of his best songs in years, also demonstrates some of the drawbacks of Lindsey's vision when not balanced by other members in the band.

Originally Posted by On Ice

Although Tusk is a pop masterpiece in it's own right, I think I would do his work on '75 and Rumours a great disservice by not recognizing that his work is the dictionary definition of classic rock while Tusk is more of a "cult classic". When you put on the '75 album and are immediately treated to Lindsey's voice "Monday morning you sure look fine... it showcases a previously underappreciated talent in Mr Buckingham. Same with Blue Letter "when your day goes down, I won't be waitin' around for you". World Turning, although a partially "borrowed" song from Peter Green, the sounds he got out of his guitar are nothing short of brilliant. Ending with his show stopping masterpiece, which remains to this day in I'm so Afraid, heck he even recycled it a couple of times in Tango and This is the Time.

This is an excellent argument for the inclusion of Fleetwood Mac Fleetwood Mac. Lindsey vocals are also in top shape on Crystal, and despite it being a Stevie song, I think his voice brings something to the song that she never could. Hmmm...Monday Morning, World Turning, I'm So Afraid (though more famous as a live performance than its studio version), Crystal, Blue Letter cover. He certainly came onto the scene big on this album, offering a strong contribution.

[Dex]

Originally Posted by bethelblues

You know, that is the same reason people have given to Dreams not being one of Stevie's best songs, saying it's a perfect pop song but not representative of Stevie's best work. I think that sentiment is rooted in the fact that it is played so often it now seems stale, not fresh or alive anymore. As I've argued that that studio recording perhaps captures the three voices of the lead singers together better than any other song while also giving a nod to the earlier blues roots of the band, I have to also disagree with regard to Lindsey's songs.

I know it can sometimes be difficult to wrap your head around an opinion that differs so much from your own, so I can appreciate the need to try and justify it. But honestly, I don't hear Dreams on the radio much. Never have. Maybe it's the countries I've lived in or the stations I've listened to. But I have heard many Mac and Mac-adjacent songs on the radio far more than Dreams. When I got Rumours, Dreams was one of the few songs on the album I didn't really know. I still think it's overhyped, and I think much of the praise heaped upon it is applicable to many Mac recordings of that era. I like it, but I don't get why it's considered so darn special.

You've mentioned here and elsewhere that many on this forum don't give Dreams its due credit, but I can't say I've seen that. It seems to be a universally loved song as far as I can tell.

I chose Say You Will and Tusk because I think there is so much more of Lindsey's genius on display in those albums than there is in the relatively narrow sonic confines of Rumours and the White Album. Radio play has nothing to do with it.

[bethelblues]

Originally Posted by Dex

I know it can sometimes be difficult to wrap your head around an opinion that differs so much from your own, so I can appreciate the need to try and justify it. But honestly, I don't hear Dreams on the radio much. Never have. Maybe it's the countries I've lived in or the stations I've listened to. But I have heard many Mac and Mac-adjacent songs on the radio far more than Dreams. When I got Rumours, Dreams was one of the few songs on the album I didn't really know. I still think it's overhyped, and I think much of the praise heaped upon it is applicable to many Mac recordings of that era. I like it, but I don't get why it's considered so darn special.

You've mentioned here and elsewhere that many on this forum don't give Dreams its due credit, but I can't say I've seen that. It seems to be a universally loved song as far as I can tell.

I chose Say You Will and Tusk because I think there is so much more of Lindsey's genius on display in those albums than there is in the relatively narrow sonic confines of Rumours and the White Album. Radio play has nothing to do with it.

I really appreciated your post. Yeah, just wanted to justify my opinion so I'm not written off as ignorant for not choosing Lindsey's other albums. I mentioned Dreams as an example since I've certainly gotten that impression from reading this board. I think a few people mentioned it being overrated in the Stevie thread for her best two albums. In the US, as you know, it was FM's only number-one hit, so it's certainly recognized though I'm sure more by its chorus than the name of the song. I do understand why some people think it's gotten stale or shouldn't be performed every night, so that's why I defended the studio recording and raised the point that maybe some fans read Lindsey's Rumours songs the same way. So, yeah, I do appreciate Lindsey's creativity and strokes of genius, but I don't always agree with his decisions from small production choices to larger album concept issues. Like I said, I'm a fan of Red Rover and absolutely love Say Goodbye and Bleed to Love Her, though for the latter two I really think he took the life and passion out of the songs by speeding up Say Goodbye and overproducing Bleed to Love Her. You probably don't agree but it's certainly fun to debate back and forth.

[KenB]

Originally Posted by bethelblues

Like I said, I'm a fan of Red Rover and absolutely love Say Goodbye and Bleed to Love Her, though for the latter two I really think he took the life and passion out of the songs by speeding up Say Goodbye and overproducing Bleed to Love Her. You probably don't agree but it's certainly fun to debate back and forth.

I am not Dex, but I echo his sentiments and voted for the same two albums. I love both the live version and the studio version of Say Goodbye, for different reasons. I've heard several people here call the studio recording "sped up." Do we know that it was originally written to be slower? Or are we only calling it "sped up" after the fact, when in reality it's that Lindsey later decided to slow it down in concert? Is there an early recording of Say Goodbye that's played at a slower tempo? If there is, I'd love to hear it!

[bethelblues]

Originally Posted by KenB

I am not Dex, but I echo his sentiments and voted for the same two albums. I love both the live version and the studio version of Say Goodbye, for different reasons. I've heard several people here call the studio recording "sped up." Do we know that it was originally written to be slower? Or are we only calling it "sped up" after the fact, when in reality it's that Lindsey later decided to slow it down in concert? Is there an early recording of Say Goodbye that's played at a slower tempo? If there is, I'd love to hear it!

I'm not sure about the history behind Say Goodbye. Maybe someone knows why Lindsey slowed it down for his live version of the song? I called the studio version "sped up" in relation to his live performance, which I heard at a Fleetwood Mac show before I heard the original recording. In comparing the two, my feeling is the SYW recording doesn't capture what Lindsey brings to his live performances, which highlight a guitar part that has room to seep into the audience and really enforce the meaning of the song and its lyrics for me.

[michelej1]

^When they're live and standing in front of you it's one thing, because their expressions and delivery are part of the whole experience.

But when I am just listening to the studio version, I want a song, something I can hum, a melody, something on which the sentiment can grab on and stick. Something that stands on its own without a visual accompaniment. I think the faster version of the song fits those requirements better for me. So, I like the studio version more, for that reason.

Michele

[KenB]

Originally Posted by Dex

Absolutely, yes.

And I'm thrilled more people than expected are recognizing the sheer creativity and passion he displays on Say You Will.

Tusk is the no-brainer top choice for me. For second place, I spent a lot of time going back and forth between Rumours and Say You Will. I've loved Rumours for almost 30 years. I think it's one of the greatest albums ever recorded (and overall a much better album than Say You Will). But in the end, I decided that Rumours has three absolutely stellar songs by Lindsey (Second Hand News, Never Going Back Again and Go Your Own Way) and that's all. (I don't count The Chain as a Lindsey song.) Say You Will also has three stellar songs by Lindsey (Red Rover, Bleed to Love Her and Say Goodbye) plus some very good songs in What's The World Coming To, Peacekeeper and Steal Your Heart Away, as well as some work that took major risks (Come), which is something that Rumours, as amazing as it is, really didn't do. So I very narrowly voted for SYW over Rumours as my number two.

[KenB]

Originally Posted by KenB

Tusk is the no-brainer top choice for me. For second place, I spent a lot of time going back and forth between Rumours and Say You Will. I've loved Rumours for almost 30 years. I think it's one of the greatest albums ever recorded (and overall a much better album than Say You Will). But in the end, I decided that Rumours has three absolutely stellar songs by Lindsey (Second Hand News, Never Going Back Again and Go Your Own Way) and that's all. (I don't count The Chain as a Lindsey song.) Say You Will also has three stellar songs by Lindsey (Red Rover, Bleed to Love Her and Say Goodbye) plus some very good songs in What's The World Coming To, Peacekeeper and Steal Your Heart Away, as well as some work that took major risks (Come), which is something that Rumours, as amazing as it is, really didn't do. So I very narrowly voted for SYW over Rumours as my number two.

Also, I forgot to mention another point in favor of SYW: Though it's not part of the "official" album sequence, there's the beautiful version of Dylan's "Love Minus Zero/No Limit" on the deluxe edition, which I adore.

[elle]

Originally Posted by Dex

Rumours has Lindsey offering absolutely perfect pop songs, but that isn't really what we're discussing here. And I'm thrilled more people than expected are recognizing the sheer creativity and passion he displays on Say You Will.

absolutely!

Originally Posted by On Ice

Although Tusk is a pop masterpiece in it's own right, I think I would do his work on '75 and Rumours a great disservice by not recognizing that his work is the dictionary definition of classic rock while Tusk is more of a "cult classic". When you put on the '75 album and are immediately treated to Lindsey's voice "Monday morning you sure look fine... it showcases a previously underappreciated talent in Mr Buckingham. Same with Blue Letter "when your day goes down, I won't be waitin' around for you". World Turning, although a partially "borrowed" song from Peter Green, the sounds he got out of his guitar are nothing short of brilliant. Ending with his show stopping masterpiece, which remains to this day in I'm so Afraid, heck he even recycled it a couple of times in Tango and This is the Time.

Rumours brought him into the stratosphere talent wise. Second Hand News like Monday Morning, is one of those songs you can listen to again and again and it never grows stale. His musicianship in Never Going Back Again in its various incarnations again showcase his unmatchable talent. Go Your Own Way is Lindsey's career defining song, he has never not played it live and the temptation to turn it up really loud will never fade. Lastly, what Lindsey did with the Chain, he has never quite captured since and probably could have out of the more brilliant pieces of Stevie Nicks demos that we know exist, and the musical pieces he's written, especially in the late career trilogy of brilliant solo albums.

some great thoughts here, and i generally agree with most of them.

however, he was not nearly as prolific as a songwriter during that time, as he became later in his career. maybe he was still getting into the whole songwriting thing? (that apparently Stevie has dragged him into kicking and screaming during BN era), and he created these gems you mention, but there were only few of them. during Tusk era, he really blossomed as a songwriter. i wonder whether he considered himself mostly guitarist, singer, arranger, producer before Tusk time? and after putting together all these brilliant songs on FM and Rumours, finally figured out songwriting works well for him as an outlet, and he really is a brilliant songwriter too?

Originally Posted by KenB

Tusk is the no-brainer top choice for me. For second place, I spent a lot of time going back and forth between Rumours and Say You Will. I've loved Rumours for almost 30 years. I think it's one of the greatest albums ever recorded (and overall a much better album than Say You Will). But in the end, I decided that Rumours has three absolutely stellar songs by Lindsey (Second Hand News, Never Going Back Again and Go Your Own Way) and that's all. (I don't count The Chain as a Lindsey song.) Say You Will also has three stellar songs by Lindsey (Red Rover, Bleed to Love Her and Say Goodbye) plus some very good songs in What's The World Coming To, Peacekeeper and Steal Your Heart Away, as well as some work that took major risks (Come), which is something that Rumours, as amazing as it is, really didn't do. So I very narrowly voted for SYW over Rumours as my number two.

i like your analysis. a lot. although i would maybe count some different SYW as stellar Lindsey songs (Murrow, Red Rover, BTLH, definitely Peacekeeper lyrics... and i would add the whole GOS1 because that was really the same hugely prolific, brilliant, and out-of-boundaries songwriting period for Lindsey).

Originally Posted by KenB

Also, I forgot to mention another point in favor of SYW: Though it's not part of the "official" album sequence, there's the beautiful version of Dylan's "Love Minus Zero/No Limit" on the deluxe edition, which I adore.

i can't express how much i love his version, how beautifully he sings it, and how much he added with those so-lindsey guitar parts. <3

[McTrouble]

Tusk and Say You Will - would have made great Lindsey solo albums with just his stuff on them

[On Ice]

however, he was not nearly as prolific as a songwriter during that time, as he became later in his career. maybe he was still getting into the whole songwriting thing? (that apparently Stevie has dragged him into kicking and screaming during BN era), and he created these gems you mention, but there were only few of them. during Tusk era, he really blossomed as a songwriter. i wonder whether he considered himself mostly guitarist, singer, arranger, producer before Tusk time? and after putting together all these brilliant songs on FM and Rumours, finally figured out songwriting works well for him as an outlet, and he really is a brilliant songwriter too?

That's a really good point about Lindsey's songwriting, after Rumours he really seemed to go into high productivity with creating new music. When I think of the early 90's and how good Stevie sounded just around the time of the end of the Mask and Lindsey's stunning Out of The Cradle not to mention Christine being in a prolific period, we could have had another masterpiece of a Mac album, sadly it wasn't to be.

Fortunately for us, Lindsey found that second wind and has put together some of the best music of his career in the last 6 years. The most important factor I think is that he finally found that balance between experimentation and maintaining that appeal for the listener. I'm also a big Say You Will fan and think he did a fine job throughout. All that said, I'm still drawn back to '75 and Rumours, it can't be topped to these ears.