Buying Fleetwood Mac music at Wal Mart

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by gldstwmn
They do have the opportunity to start a business, go to school, change occupations, etc. It sounds to me from your description as though they are satisified with their position in the world. If they're not happy and they're not doing anything about it, that's on them.
I do think you are right about some people not know about their opportunities. But isn't it up to them to find out?
For the record, I was blue collar up until about two years ago.

Hey, congratulations on your new shirt! That's great, and I mean that.

My point is that I know for a fact a lot of immigrants don't realize that college is an option for them. Not when they first get here anyway. That goes for a lot of inner-city youths, and I'm sure some rural poor as well.

I should have said "young women." They are all about 20 or so. And damn, do they make the best coffee in Penn Station.

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by flyfirefly
I'm in college. Not that the above had anything to do with anything, but yeah, I was in the top 10% of my graduating class, got distinguished honors, et al. I was in various organizations, and after filling out about half a million scholarship applications was consequently denied all of them. I got into an Ivy League school but couldn't go because the government wasn't providing me with enough money ...

But, yeah I guess everyone does have an equal opportunity to go to college and better themselves (should that be their goal), but I had a 14% tuition raise last year, and a 16.5% one this year. That's fair enough for everyone.

Look at the first half of that quote. How can you follow that with your "equal opportunity" statement? No such thing. While most of us may have an opportunity to go to college, it sure as hell ain't equal. And once you get out, it gets even harder for some.

OK, I had a similar situation. I was in the top 5 percent of my HS class, which was fairly sizable. I applied to two schools. I never liked to mess around. Two was enough, and I knew I'd be accepted at both. I was. One was waaaaay too expensive, and even with financial aid, I would have been saddled with a bigger debt than I would have wanted. The second one was just right. And you know something? I don't really think I gave up anything from an education standpoint. Of course, it would have been cool to hang out in Boston through my college career, but as it happened, I spent four years in beautiful Western Massaschusetts.

Years later, I took Mrs. Carne to an event up there. A bunch of my professors were there, and we caught up on things. On the way back, Mrs. Carne said: "Wow, you had such a great experience in college. Your professors really seem to care about the students. I wish I'd gone there." Or something to that effect.

I'm not sure I would have gotten that kind of care at the other school. And mind you, I went to a 20,000-student school. So I learned as much, if not more, outside the classroom as inside.

And here's the point I've been working toward: When I was working in dailies, I wanted to make the jump to a large metro paper. I was passed up several times. But I saw folks who had less experience than I apply and get into big-name papers. The difference? (OK, one could always argue they were better, but I know damn well I was just as good or better.) They had degrees from Columbia, Harvard, etc.

So is it equal? No. Eventually I had to adjust my career path. I ended up making a lot more money as a journalist than I thought was possible when you're not on TV. The bust of a couple of years ago mandated another adjustment. Now my career is only so important. Other things have taken priority: my family and a couple of hobbies that allow me to exercize the kind of creativity I can't at work.

It worked out. And I am not complaining. No way. But please don't tell me it's an equal situation for us all.

By the way, I agree that not everyone should go to college. I've spent quite a bit of time over the past week painting and redecorating a certain room in the house. Boy, has that been fun. Sweaty, but fun. It's nice to work with your hands and doing it over until you get it right.

[strandinthewind]

For the record, I do not think I ever argued everyone has an equal chance of attending college. I am just saying that the way I have read most if not all grade and high schools are structured nowadays, pupils are educated about options for college. Some even offer counseling on whether they are a good candidate for college and also offer to educate the parents in this area.

Note: that in no way guarantees they will be accepted into a private or state college or that they will be able to afford it if they do. While loans are great for some, the thought of graduating and with a $100,000 outstanding loan (about $800 or more a month) with a degree that at best will get you a $40,000 a year job is horrifying to most. I mean that leaves you with about $1,200 to $1,500 (depending on the state) a month to spend after taxes and the loan payment. Thus, many people who are accepted by big name private schools opt to go to a much less expensive state school.

[flyfirefly]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Look at the first half of that quote. How can you follow that with your "equal opportunity" statement?

Do I have to put the < insert blatant sarcasm> notice everywhere? And, just for the sake of saying so, I never said it was a major heartache that I didn't go to an Ivy League school, but that's just how it happened.

& I'm just so happy some of you had your incredible experiences at college, I've had a few good ones myself. That's not even the point, what's the point in good experiences if you have to think about dropping out because you don't make enough?

originally posted by strandinthewind
I am just saying that the way I have read most if not all grade and high schools are structured nowadays, pupils are educated about options for college

Also realize, that if a state has budget problems, education is the first to go. There is no value placed on these counselors or on programs to make anyone "well rounded" In many cases, buildings are falling apart and teachers are so bitter they'd rather tell their students to give up than motivate them to move forward.

[sulamith]

Lisa, I'm not LOOKING DOWN on anybody except people who choose not to look at the big picture.

My rant with Walmart is that they have FOOLED people into thinking they have the lowest prices in town and that they are good for communities.

They are neither.

-Sharon

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by flyfirefly


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
originally posted by strandinthewind
I am just saying that the way I have read most if not all grade and high schools are structured nowadays, pupils are educated about options for college
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Also realize, that if a state has budget problems, education is the first to go. There is no value placed on these counselors or on programs to make anyone "well rounded" In many cases, buildings are falling apart and teachers are so bitter they'd rather tell their students to give up than motivate them to move forward.


__________________

Other than orphans and despite any funding in schools, I think the parents also have a responsibility here as well. Moreover, I just think that in today's world and as advanced in all other areas as high schoolers are as opposed to just 20 years ago, the thought of someone not even having an inkling of the ability to go to college is unreal unless they have no communication with the outside world or are the brand new non-English speaking immigrants Carne suggested. I mean between parents, the Church, the net, newspapers, magazines, television, advertising flyers (yes I have seen these), and friends, surely every high school student must have at least an idea that college might be worth looking into.

Also, and I know I am going to get flamed for this, if a teacher is not doing their job no matter how frustrated they get because of budget constraints, they should be made to do their job or fired OR they should seek another profession. I mean imagine if a doctor or nurse got so fed up with a particular hospital that they did not do out of spite what you were counting on them to do prior to your surgery. I think most if not all people would insist they be fired on the spot. I mean I feel their pain regarding the lack of financial support and think the behavior of most toward funding education is horrible. But, I have to say who doesn't get fed up in their job and not want to perform well. Yet, somehow I and many others seem to do it. Moreover, I really think that the press given to the lack of financial support for our schools prevents anyone who has become a teacher in the last 15 or so years cannot from saying with a straight face say they expected adequate funding.

Note: be nice in the flaming

[GardenStateGirlie]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
For the record, I do not think I ever argued everyone has an equal chance of attending college. I am just saying that the way I have read most if not all grade and high schools are structured nowadays, pupils are educated about options for college. Some even offer counseling on whether they are a good candidate for college and also offer to educate the parents in this area.

Note: that in no way guarantees they will be accepted into a private or state college or that they will be able to afford it if they do. While loans are great for some, the thought of graduating and with a $100,000 outstanding loan (about $800 or more a month) with a degree that at best will get you a $40,000 a year job is horrifying to most. I mean that leaves you with about $1,200 to $1,500 (depending on the state) a month to spend after taxes and the loan payment. Thus, many people who are accepted by big name private schools opt to go to a much less expensive state school.

They have 3 types of classes for you to choose from in high school.....remedial (which you are put into), college preparitory, and honors and advanced placement (which you are reccomended for) so basically, there aren't many options. I will say this of the school I graduated from... there was an opportunity to go to Vo Tech for part of the day once you got into 11th grade. Most of the kids that went were behavioral problems but whatever, they had a place to go and learned a trade but since a lot of the behavioral problems went there, it had a negative wrap and I think this disswayed people from going there. As far as counselors in high school go? I'm sorry to any of you who may be a counselor but based on my experience and the experience of the friends that I have that went to other schools, they are the biggest waste of money that a school system could possibly have. I can't say they helped me prepare for anything. They basically would call you down once a year and say, "how are you doing?" LAME.

What I get pissed about is that here I am, living in a middle class family and not being able to afford to go to school. I would almost rather be dirt poor or incredible rich because it seems nowadays, that's what you have to be in order to go to school. I know how much college costs now. God forbid If I have children...I don't even want to know what the cost of college will be by then.

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
Moreover, I just think that in today's world and as advanced in all other areas as high schoolers are as opposed to just 20 years ago, the thought of someone not even having an inkling of the ability to go to college is unreal unless they have no communication with the outside world or are the brand new non-English speaking immigrants Carne suggested. I mean between parents, the Church, the net, newspapers, magazines, television, advertising flyers (yes I have seen these), and friends, surely every high school student must have at least an idea that college might be worth looking into.

Ok, let's take everything out except television, Strand. No church, no net, no magazines. Parents? Let's say one parent. Now, let's say that parent has no job. Or has a job but it pays very little that it's hard to make ends meet. Or the parent is an alcoholic or a junkie.

Still think it's impossible for the child to realize he/she has no opportunity? Put yourself in the situation. Turn on the television. None of what you see on the screen can possibly apply to your own situation. To you, it is an impossibility. It's a mindset borne of circumstances.

Believe me, it happens. It's hard to understand that because it's very hard to try to imagine the situation. FDR was shocked the first time he saw people living in shacks. Coming from a priviledged family, he didn't realize that kind of thing existed. Eleanor, on the other hand, was able to push a lot of social change, getting her husband to agree on many of her proposals, because she was able to put herself in the position of the people who needed that change so badly.

I mean imagine if a doctor or nurse got so fed up with a particular hospital that they did not do out of spite what you were counting on them to do prior to your surgery. I think most if not all people would insist they be fired on the spot.

Obviously you haven't watched "Scrubs."

[dissention]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Of course, it would have been cool to hang out in Boston through my college career, but as it happened, I spent four years in beautiful Western Massaschusetts.

Can you name a beautiful place in Western Mass?

[CarneVaca]

Can you name a beautiful place in Western Mass?

Dozens.

[dissention]

Originally posted by CarneVaca


Dozens. [/B]

I was only joking with ya, Carne.

Maybe it's because I was born in Western Mass and lived there until May, but I just hated it. The unemployment rate is terrible, the governor is an abomination, I swear it must be the capital for drug dealers and sexual offenders, and the people are just rude. I lived there so long that I became jaded to it being a nice place.

What part of Western Mass did you live in?

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by dissention
I was only joking with ya, Carne.

I know you were kidding. I was in Amherst. I loved it. But I'm sure it's quite a different experience from growing up in Springfield, Holyoke or one of the small towns around there. But there are beautiful spots all over that area. Go further West to the Berkshires, and you'll find even more.

Don't get me wrong. I'll take the coast any day over Western Mass. But it was fun for four years.

[dissention]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
I know you were kidding. I was in Amherst. I loved it. But I'm sure it's quite a different experience from growing up in Springfield, Holyoke or one of the small towns around there. But there are beautiful spots all over that area. Go further West to the Berkshires, and you'll find even more.

Don't get me wrong. I'll take the coast any day over Western Mass. But it was fun for four years.

Yeah, the Berkshires are beautiful. I used to go up there all the time to the outlets. Westfield is one of the nicer cities in Western Mass, too. The ole Whip City.

Springfield is just disgusting. The mayor is crooked and the crime there is sickening. One of the police officers was arrested the other day for selling crack cocaine! The city is so overpopulated that there isn't enough housing. Its federal building also won't allow you to wear anti-war or Bush pins. They'll have you removed. Holyoke is another story. I won't even drive through Holyoke without having my doors locked and windows up. The new police chief is really tough and it's slowly getting a teeny bit better, but it just sickens me. It's the ghetto if there ever was one.

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
. . . FDR was shocked the first time he saw people living in shacks.

I know what he and you mean. In July 1999, I went up the Amazon River at Iquitos, Peru and into the tributary rivers where my group distributed school supplies to the Yagua (sp?) Indians and the other tribes there. While the surroundings are breathtakingly beautiful, talk about a culture shock. No running water and they live in these open air huts that are raised about ten or more feet off of the ground on poles because the earth of the village has about six feet of water over it for about three or four months a year. And then there are the countless, endless, and hungry bugs, children with bellies full of worms, etc.! Believe me, it makes you realize and appreciate all that you have and all that others in the world do not.

[flyfirefly]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
Also, and I know I am going to get flamed for this, if a teacher is not doing their job no matter how frustrated they get because of budget constraints, they should be made to do their job or fired OR they should seek another profession.

I don't think this warrants a flame. But if teachers aren't getting paid enough, it's not like there's going to be a long line of others waiting for their jobs. A long line of qualified others. I'd be surprised if everyone on this board couldn't think of 2 or more teachers (in high school alone) who fit this description. Some you can't fire--they have tenure, and it works just like that. Basically, teachers aren't hired to care, they're hired to teach, and when that gets old, the kids suffer. But there's not really anything that can be done.