I Know I'm Not Wrong CD mix?

[drzubritsky]

As far as I know, there has never been a public statement on why IKINW used a different mix on CD. When I bought the old (original) CD, I thought maybe they just pulled the wrong tape, since they also substituted the 45 edit of "Sara" for the original album version. I assumed that when they issued the deluxe remaster of Tusk that they would correct IKINW and use the original mix, but that wasn't the case. When the deluxe edition was done that way, I could only surmise that the band or Lindsey preferred the alternate mix since they seem to keep a pretty tight rein on their releases.

For those looking for the correct mix of IKINW in digital form, it's on the HDTracks download version of Tusk.

[mediumbluemetal]

Originally Posted by drzubritsky

As far as I know, there has never been a public statement on why IKINW used a different mix on CD. When I bought the old (original) CD, I thought maybe they just pulled the wrong tape, since they also substituted the 45 edit of "Sara" for the original album version. I assumed that when they issued the deluxe remaster of Tusk that they would correct IKINW and use the original mix, but that wasn't the case. When the deluxe edition was done that way, I could only surmise that the band or Lindsey preferred the alternate mix since they seem to keep a pretty tight rein on their releases.

For those looking for the correct mix of IKINW in digital form, it's on the HDTracks download version of Tusk.

As far as I know, the "Sara" 45 edit was used on original CD pressings due to technical limitations of the early compact disc; Tusk was a long album, and truncating Sara allowed the album to be issued on a single CD. When the CD mastering process evolved, Tusk was never re-mastered to include the full version of "Sara" until the 2000s deluxe reissue.

Now, on to "I Know I'm Not Wrong" and the issue of the different LP vs CD "mix" of the song. It's been several years since this thread was last added to, and since then, Tusk has be reissued on LP and also reissued on CD with a disc of bonus outtakes. This has allowed me to make several observations about IKINW. There is still (and may never be) any official reason for the different mixes, but here's my take:

The original LP IKINW mix was the result of a mastering error; it was not a certain "mix," and it was not how Fleetwood Mac intended for the song to sound. Several pieces of proof exist...

1) If you have an original Tusk LP, you can actually "see" a difference in the appearance of the grooves at the IKINW track. They stand out as different from all of the other tracks on the record, and I believe that the grooves look so strange because the left and right channels are exactly the same, whereas the other tracks all have stereo channels. This leads me to my second point:

2) No other song on the Tusk LP lacks stereo effect. IKINW is the only song on the entire album with no stereo effects at all. Both channels play the same sound from the beginning to the end of the song, but only if you're listening to Tusk on the original vinyl release.

3) As others have stated, playing any CD version of IKINW while turning the balance control to only the left channel produces the exact same mono "LP Mix" that people have claimed is the original mix of IKINW; however, playing the CD version on an even balance introduces the stereo effects that are oddly missing from the entire LP version of the song.

4) Tusk was reissued on vinyl in 2012 and is still available new as such. Warner Bros. went to great lengths to preserve the original album as much as possible. The LP reissue even includes the double inner decorative picture sleeves that were used in the original release. The IKINW track, however, includes the stereo "CD mix", not the mono "LP mix." What's more, the IKINW track no longer visually stands out on the LP as having strange groove reflections. As much effort as WB put into making this reissue look authentic, I have to imagine that they used the version of IKINW that Fleetwood Mac intended--the version that included stereo effects like the rest of the album.

5) The last piece of evidence can be found on the special edition Tusk CD reissue from 2013. The second disc contains outtakes and demos of various Tusk songs. There are several IKINW outtakes on the second disc, and most of these pre-release versions of the song contain elements of the stereo "CD mix" and none of the pre-release versions sound specifically like the mono "LP mix."

So yeah... that's my long-winded explanation. There's no official word (which I think is odd since even the Wikipedia page notes something about the "LP mix" in the track listing), but from everything that I can tell, it appears that the original LP version of the song was released in error. The only real question is when did FM and WB realize that the error existed, and how many copies were affected? It's possible that only certain presses contained the flaw, or it's possible that all LP's contained the flaw. It's possible that the error was fixed early on, or it's possible that it was never fixed until the 2012 vinyl reissue. I'd love to know the answer to some of those questions. I do own a NOS copy of Tusk that's still sealed, but I'd hate to open it just to see if it also contains the flaw. It's also unclear if the original cassette releases were affected or not.

I think people prefer whichever version of IKINW that they were first introduced to. Those who first heard it on vinyl LP think that the correct stereo version sounds superfluous. Those who heard the song first on CD think that the erroneous mono version sounds flat. Either way it's a good song. I'd like to see a statement from WB or FM addressing the truth of the matter just for my own curiosity.

[vivfox]

^^^
mediumbluemetal, this is the most amazing Ledgie debut post I have ever read. Welcome!

[drzubritsky]

Originally Posted by mediumbluemetal

As far as I know, the "Sara" 45 edit was used on original CD pressings due to technical limitations of the early compact disc; Tusk was a long album, and truncating Sara allowed the album to be issued on a single CD. When the CD mastering process evolved, Tusk was never re-mastered to include the full version of "Sara" until the 2000s deluxe reissue.

Now, on to "I Know I'm Not Wrong" and the issue of the different LP vs CD "mix" of the song. It's been several years since this thread was last added to, and since then, Tusk has be reissued on LP and also reissued on CD with a disc of bonus outtakes. This has allowed me to make several observations about IKINW. There is still (and may never be) any official reason for the different mixes, but here's my take:

The original LP IKINW mix was the result of a mastering error; it was not a certain "mix," and it was not how Fleetwood Mac intended for the song to sound. Several pieces of proof exist...

1) If you have an original Tusk LP, you can actually "see" a difference in the appearance of the grooves at the IKINW track. They stand out as different from all of the other tracks on the record, and I believe that the grooves look so strange because the left and right channels are exactly the same, whereas the other tracks all have stereo channels. This leads me to my second point:

2) No other song on the Tusk LP lacks stereo effect. IKINW is the only song on the entire album with no stereo effects at all. Both channels play the same sound from the beginning to the end of the song, but only if you're listening to Tusk on the original vinyl release.

3) As others have stated, playing any CD version of IKINW while turning the balance control to only the left channel produces the exact same mono "LP Mix" that people have claimed is the original mix of IKINW; however, playing the CD version on an even balance introduces the stereo effects that are oddly missing from the entire LP version of the song.

4) Tusk was reissued on vinyl in 2012 and is still available new as such. Warner Bros. went to great lengths to preserve the original album as much as possible. The LP reissue even includes the double inner decorative picture sleeves that were used in the original release. The IKINW track, however, includes the stereo "CD mix", not the mono "LP mix." What's more, the IKINW track no longer visually stands out on the LP as having strange groove reflections. As much effort as WB put into making this reissue look authentic, I have to imagine that they used the version of IKINW that Fleetwood Mac intended--the version that included stereo effects like the rest of the album.

5) The last piece of evidence can be found on the special edition Tusk CD reissue from 2013. The second disc contains outtakes and demos of various Tusk songs. There are several IKINW outtakes on the second disc, and most of these pre-release versions of the song contain elements of the stereo "CD mix" and none of the pre-release versions sound specifically like the mono "LP mix."

So yeah... that's my long-winded explanation. There's no official word (which I think is odd since even the Wikipedia page notes something about the "LP mix" in the track listing), but from everything that I can tell, it appears that the original LP version of the song was released in error. The only real question is when did FM and WB realize that the error existed, and how many copies were affected? It's possible that only certain presses contained the flaw, or it's possible that all LP's contained the flaw. It's possible that the error was fixed early on, or it's possible that it was never fixed until the 2012 vinyl reissue. I'd love to know the answer to some of those questions. I do own a NOS copy of Tusk that's still sealed, but I'd hate to open it just to see if it also contains the flaw. It's also unclear if the original cassette releases were affected or not.

I think people prefer whichever version of IKINW that they were first introduced to. Those who first heard it on vinyl LP think that the correct stereo version sounds superfluous. Those who heard the song first on CD think that the erroneous mono version sounds flat. Either way it's a good song. I'd like to see a statement from WB or FM addressing the truth of the matter just for my own curiosity.

Hmmm, the mystery deepens. IKINW on my Tusk vinyl LP (possibly not an original 1979 pressing but not a recent reissue) is definitely a stereo mix. L/R separation is easily audible immediately from the intro, with a percussion instrument (sounds like a wood block) only in the right channel and an acoustic guitar track only in the left channel. Based on your observations above, it's possible that some LP pressings did indeed get past quality control with a mastering error causing IKINW to be in mono, but maybe the error was only made on certain pressings or was corrected on later pressings.

With that said, the stereo mix on my vinyl LP is definitely different than the initial CD release as is widely known. One quick way to hear the mix difference is when the chorus starts at the :49 mark and the CD mix contains background vocals that aren't present on the LP mix.

BTW, the hi-rez version available on HDTracks contains the original stereo LP mix of IKINW.

[mediumbluemetal]

Originally Posted by drzubritsky

Hmmm, the mystery deepens. IKINW on my Tusk vinyl LP (possibly not an original 1979 pressing but not a recent reissue) is definitely a stereo mix. L/R separation is easily audible immediately from the intro, with a percussion instrument (sounds like a wood block) only in the right channel and an acoustic guitar track only in the left channel. Based on your observations above, it's possible that some LP pressings did indeed get past quality control with a mastering error causing IKINW to be in mono, but maybe the error was only made on certain pressings or was corrected on later pressings.

With that said, the stereo mix on my vinyl LP is definitely different than the initial CD release as is widely known. One quick way to hear the mix difference is when the chorus starts at the :49 mark and the CD mix contains background vocals that aren't present on the LP mix.

BTW, the hi-rez version available on HDTracks contains the original stereo LP mix of IKINW.

That's so bizarre! So maybe there are 3 versions of IKINW instead of 2. It sounds like there's an early release mono mix, an early release stereo mix, and the later stereo mix that's shown up on CDs and the 2013 Tusk vinyl pressing.

I listened to the HDTracks preview, and to me that sounds a LOT like my original pressing LP. I couldn't tell on my laptop speakers if that mix has stereo effects or not, but I know that my LP does not.

To complicate things further, I haven't heard the distinct wood block that was mentioned in any of the versions. However, on my 2 CD Tusk reissue, there are 3 versions/demos of the song. One of them is labeled "alternate" and it starts out with a clear wood block. I wonder if that version somehow made it onto some of the albums? So much confusion for such a little song...

[iamnotafraid]

The Tusk Radio Special Sampler
had different mixes (I believe) of
these songs:

What Makes You Think You're The One
That's All For Everyone
Think About Me
I Know I'm Not Wrong
Honey Hi
Sisters Of The Moon

I've got one of these albums stored
away somewhere.

[shackin'up]

Oh, how interesting. I'm going to compare! I've got an original 1979 pressing of Tusk. I'll do the mono/stereo check too! By the way, i've always liked they 'original' vinyl mix more than the CD verslons. Maybe because I loved the original to deathmetalband for 6 years before the CD even existed. Ill check the grooves too. I think I remember that IKINW looked different from the rest.

Thanks for the insightful comments!!!!

[GJK]

Originally Posted by drzubritsky

Hmmm, the mystery deepens. IKINW on my Tusk vinyl LP (possibly not an original 1979 pressing but not a recent reissue) is definitely a stereo mix. L/R separation is easily audible immediately from the intro, with a percussion instrument (sounds like a wood block) only in the right channel and an acoustic guitar track only in the left channel. Based on your observations above, it's possible that some LP pressings did indeed get past quality control with a mastering error causing IKINW to be in mono, but maybe the error was only made on certain pressings or was corrected on later pressings.

With that said, the stereo mix on my vinyl LP is definitely different than the initial CD release as is widely known. One quick way to hear the mix difference is when the chorus starts at the :49 mark and the CD mix contains background vocals that aren't present on the LP mix.

BTW, the hi-rez version available on HDTracks contains the original stereo LP mix of IKINW.

'I know I'm not wrong' on my Tusk LP (definitely an original 1979, German pressing) is also in stereo; with a bit more percussion on the right channel and a distinctive rhythm guitar on the left. The somewhat simple, monotonous 'guitar solo' is at the left channel. There are no outstanding differences in the appearance of the grooves at the IKINW track. That said, the grooves from 'Never make me cry' do appear to differ a bit from the rest of the tracks.

And yes, when I bought the CD in the late eighties (also a German pressing), I immediately noticed that (the mix on) IKINW sounded different from the (original) vinyl version.

GJK (from the Netherlands)

[mediumbluemetal]

Hey guys--I've made a VERY interesting observation about "I Know I'm Not Wrong" on Tusk.

As I mentioned in a previous post, I have two copies of Tusk on vinyl. One is an original pressing, and the other is the 2013 reissue. The original pressing had the "mono" version of "Wrong," and the new reissue of Tusk played the "stereo" version of "Wrong" that's on most CD releases and digital downloads. (I use the terms "mono" and "stereo" lightly because even the "mono" version has stereo sound and stereo effects, it just lacks the stereo effects you can distinctly hear on CDs).

Yesterday, I did a major upgrade to my turntable. I replaced the cheap MM cartridge with a Denon 103 MC cartridge, and I moved from a built-in preamp to a standalone Cambridge Audio MC preamp. Tusk has always sounded amazing on vinyl, and I loaded the reissue copy to listen to on the new setup. Much to my amazement, the stereo effects on the new reissue copy have TOTALLY VANISHED! What?

That's right. My 2013 reissue of Tusk now sounds EXACTLY like my original pressing of Tusk with regards to "Wrong." What the hell is that about? All of the extra sound effects from the stereo/CD version are now totally absent. How is that possible? I played with the counterweight, adding and subtracting tracking force. I played with the anti-skate settings, going all the way from 0 to 4. No amount of adjusting would produce the missing sound effects.

I took the Tusk reissue to an old linear tracking turntable that I have just to verify that I didn't somehow install the new cartridge incorrectly, and sure enough, the stereo mix is totally absent, even on another player. How is that possible? If it weren't so much work, I'd reinstall the old cheapo MM cartridge in my primary turntable just to see if it would still pick up the stereo effects.

So here's my new interpretation of the "mono" versus "stereo" mix debate regarding "I Know I'm Not Wrong." After this experience, my hypothesis is that all Tusk pressings--including the originals from 1979--originally came with stereo sound, just like CDs and digital downloads today. And somehow, for whatever reason, that extra stereo mix track must be super fragile, and it either A) gets ground/worn off by the stylus, or B) it can only be detected by certain styli.

My thought is that the stereo effects are somehow ground off. And I say this because my old cartridge/stylus played mono on the old LP and stereo on the new LP. Obviously if there was any stereo effect left on the old LP, the same stylus could have picked it up.

I am totally shocked though. This puts a whole new perspective on the debate about which version of the song was original. I maintain that the song ALWAYS was meant to have the stereo effects, but for whatever reason, the stereo effects get worn off after only a few plays. I'd LOVE to hear other thoughts on this.

[fleetwoodguy79]

Really neat stuff that I'm reading in this thread. And especially, welcome -- mediumbluemetal!

Here are my theories...

I do have an original version of the Tusk album, the HDTrack, and the CD reissue... I agree that the stereo mix is present on both major mixes (LP / HDT, CD reissue). There is clear separation which does not denote a mono mix. If you perform an analysis (using Adobe Audition, for instance), it's clear that sonic differences in the waveforms exist between the L and R channels. So, what gives?

Well, now let me throw my own speculation into the mix... I think that Lindsey had something to do with the reissue / "remix". Why, you may ask? Look at the 2004 performance of IKINW on the SYW tour. The chorus background vocals ("ohhhaaahh.... waaaahaaaaa") were clearly a focal point of that song for the 2004 performance. Those background vocals did NOT exist on the original LP, but did exist on the reissue (ironically, focal point is the R channel in the stereo mix). I think Lindsey either tweaked the mix for this release, or used an alternate mix for the reissue.

Also... while there certainly could have been a mastering error on the orignal LP, do you think that the band (especially Lindsey, given this was his brainchild) would have permitted this? It just seems highly unlikely.

I love root cause analysis. This thread is awesome.

[mediumbluemetal]

Here's my question though... if the first time you played an original issue Tusk LP, and let's say it did contain the "extra" stereo mix sounds, but they quickly were "worn off" by the stylus, would you remember?

Knowing about the debate about which version of IKINW, I still almost missed the fact that the extra stereo mix sounds were suddenly missing entirely from my reissue LP. If you didn't even know about the controversy when Tusk was released, is it possible that you didn't realize that your stylus was wearing away some of the stereo elements? And then for years and years after, you became accustomed to the song without those elements, thinking this was the way the song was supposed to sound?

My interpretation of the song has TOTALLY changed starting last night. Previously, I thought there were just different mixes. Simple. But that doesn't explain why my reissue vinyl started out the first 5 plays sounding just like the CD version, but now it sounds just like the original release LP.

There are only two possible explanations for why the reissue no longer sounds like the CD version... either A) the stylus wore down those grooves, or B) the new stylus has a different tip that won't pick up those grooves.

Either way, the fact that my reissue has sounded at different times exactly like the CD version and also like the original release LP version says to me something is odd about the song. It doesn't add up. Do you think Reprise records would reply to me if I emailed them about the reissue?

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by mediumbluemetal

It's also unclear if the original cassette releases were affected or not.

The version on the cassette edition is the same as the LP.

Very interesting post. I wonder if this mystery will ever be solved.

Welcome to the Ledge!

[Phil]

I don't recall Stevie's harmony vocal during the third verse of IKINW being present in the original LP mix, but it may be the case that it just wasn't prominent for the reasons outlined above.

[lbfan]

Originally Posted by mediumbluemetal

As far as I know, the "Sara" 45 edit was used on original CD pressings due to technical limitations of the early compact disc; Tusk was a long album, and truncating Sara allowed the album to be issued on a single CD. When the CD mastering process evolved, Tusk was never re-mastered to include the full version of "Sara" until the 2000s deluxe reissue.

Now, on to "I Know I'm Not Wrong" and the issue of the different LP vs CD "mix" of the song. It's been several years since this thread was last added to, and since then, Tusk has be reissued on LP and also reissued on CD with a disc of bonus outtakes. This has allowed me to make several observations about IKINW. There is still (and may never be) any official reason for the different mixes, but here's my take:

The original LP IKINW mix was the result of a mastering error; it was not a certain "mix," and it was not how Fleetwood Mac intended for the song to sound. Several pieces of proof exist...

1) If you have an original Tusk LP, you can actually "see" a difference in the appearance of the grooves at the IKINW track. They stand out as different from all of the other tracks on the record, and I believe that the grooves look so strange because the left and right channels are exactly the same, whereas the other tracks all have stereo channels. This leads me to my second point:

2) No other song on the Tusk LP lacks stereo effect. IKINW is the only song on the entire album with no stereo effects at all. Both channels play the same sound from the beginning to the end of the song, but only if you're listening to Tusk on the original vinyl release.

3) As others have stated, playing any CD version of IKINW while turning the balance control to only the left channel produces the exact same mono "LP Mix" that people have claimed is the original mix of IKINW; however, playing the CD version on an even balance introduces the stereo effects that are oddly missing from the entire LP version of the song.

4) Tusk was reissued on vinyl in 2012 and is still available new as such. Warner Bros. went to great lengths to preserve the original album as much as possible. The LP reissue even includes the double inner decorative picture sleeves that were used in the original release. The IKINW track, however, includes the stereo "CD mix", not the mono "LP mix." What's more, the IKINW track no longer visually stands out on the LP as having strange groove reflections. As much effort as WB put into making this reissue look authentic, I have to imagine that they used the version of IKINW that Fleetwood Mac intended--the version that included stereo effects like the rest of the album.

5) The last piece of evidence can be found on the special edition Tusk CD reissue from 2013. The second disc contains outtakes and demos of various Tusk songs. There are several IKINW outtakes on the second disc, and most of these pre-release versions of the song contain elements of the stereo "CD mix" and none of the pre-release versions sound specifically like the mono "LP mix."

So yeah... that's my long-winded explanation. There's no official word (which I think is odd since even the Wikipedia page notes something about the "LP mix" in the track listing), but from everything that I can tell, it appears that the original LP version of the song was released in error. The only real question is when did FM and WB realize that the error existed, and how many copies were affected? It's possible that only certain presses contained the flaw, or it's possible that all LP's contained the flaw. It's possible that the error was fixed early on, or it's possible that it was never fixed until the 2012 vinyl reissue. I'd love to know the answer to some of those questions. I do own a NOS copy of Tusk that's still sealed, but I'd hate to open it just to see if it also contains the flaw. It's also unclear if the original cassette releases were affected or not.

I think people prefer whichever version of IKINW that they were first introduced to. Those who first heard it on vinyl LP think that the correct stereo version sounds superfluous. Those who heard the song first on CD think that the erroneous mono version sounds flat. Either way it's a good song. I'd like to see a statement from WB or FM addressing the truth of the matter just for my own curiosity.

I wonder if the original LP mix with mono was intentional by Lindsey, and others have since tried to "correct" it.