Smile At You... philosophical question

[Hawkeye]

Originally Posted by David

I agree that the word is used as a catch-all. I spent enough years amassing all this stuff to have concluded that.

But I bring it up here because I disagreed with the widespread view that Lindsey Buckingham or Fleetwood Mac was ruining (or improving) something that they previously had no part in. I'm only suggesting that the "demo" was a group production, too--a collection of sound & performance decisions, & not a raw artifact torn from Stevie's whatever, as the term "demo" implies.

I hate it on Say You Will, by the way! But it had to change somehow. The idea that the 2003 Fleetwood Mac was going to closely reproduce something they had done decades earlier is ludicrous. Maybe I'd have preferred a straight-ahead 4/4 beat on it, midtempo & guitar-driven. It's not a "dreamy" song, so why the filigree & the wispy, vaporous atmosphere, as if it were Sara?

Part of the job of a sound-shaper in pop music--& part of the immense talents that the Mac production team used to have--is to match the song's "internal" atmosphere with an "external" soundscape. It's an exercise in complementing. Think of how perfectly Fleetwood Mac did that with Rhiannon, with Go Your Own Way, with Think About Me, with Hold Me. Those guys used to excel at this sort of thing.

i didn't get what you were saying before but now I FULLY understand and it makes perfect sense. I don't why I couldn't see it earlier. Of course Stevie couldn't have been involved fully in that amazing Mirage version. The instrumentaion is just perfect. She's not playing that awseome piano or those great guitar licks or that awseome bass line. Lindsey and Fleetwood Mac are equallya s responsible for those old Smile at Yous that until today I've given Stevie full credit for.

I still blame Lindsey for what it became in 2003 (still like it but it just pales) but I now also include him in the praise of the old versionss.

[chiliD]

The SYW version was the first version I could actually sit through. Those demos SUCK...capital S -U-C-K. I don't give a (insert word rhymes with 'suck" that starts with "f') how "emoting" Stevie's voice is on the demos, the instrumentation behind her SUCKS....SUCKS....SUCKS....SUCKS. If it isn't a COMPLETE PACKAGE, it's not a complete song. demos are that...demos. 99.99999999% of the time, they are what they are...they SUCK.

The sad part is that she waited 20 years to re-record the song and her voice is shot (why she even bothered after those other sonic drivel-laden demos, I'll never know). If those were finished tracks...outtakes...or something more "meaningful" than "demos", then shame on Fleetwood Mac.

What MAKES the SYW version? JOHN McVIE!!!! Had John been able to come up with that bass line in 1982, we might've had a shot at a decent recording, but alas, he didn't. As, Peter Green said, "Oh Well".

[Hawkeye]

I dont know what your hearing chili, but the instrumentation is what I miss most about that old outtake.

[chiliD]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye

I dont know what your hearing chili, but the instrumentation is what I miss most about that old outtake.

Compared to the instrumentation on the SYW version, that old outtake must've been done by a garage band of 9 yr olds.

[CADreaming]

Originally Posted by David

I agree that the word is used as a catch-all. I spent enough years amassing all this stuff to have concluded that.

But I bring it up here because I disagreed with the widespread view that Lindsey Buckingham or Fleetwood Mac was ruining (or improving) something that they previously had no part in. I'm only suggesting that the "demo" was a group production, too--a collection of sound & performance decisions, & not a raw artifact torn from Stevie's whatever, as the term "demo" implies.

I hate it on Say You Will, by the way! But it had to change somehow. The idea that the 2003 Fleetwood Mac was going to closely reproduce something they had done decades earlier is ludicrous. Maybe I'd have preferred a straight-ahead 4/4 beat on it, midtempo & guitar-driven. It's not a "dreamy" song, so why the filigree & the wispy, vaporous atmosphere, as if it were Sara?

Part of the job of a sound-shaper in pop music--& part of the immense talents that the Mac production team used to have--is to match the song's "internal" atmosphere with an "external" soundscape. It's an exercise in complementing. Think of how perfectly Fleetwood Mac did that with Rhiannon, with Go Your Own Way, with Think About Me, with Hold Me. Those guys used to excel at this sort of thing.

Are you insinuating Lindsey wasn't fully responsible for their hits? Didn't he arrange and basically craft their sound? Isn't that what a producer does? If Lindsey doesn't deserve full credit (or blame in some eyes), do you think they need to bring back Ken and Richard?

Originally Posted by chiliD

The SYW version was the first version I could actually sit through. Those demos SUCK...capital S -U-C-K. I don't give a (insert word rhymes with 'suck" that starts with "f') how "emoting" Stevie's voice is on the demos, the instrumentation behind her SUCKS....SUCKS....SUCKS....SUCKS. If it isn't a COMPLETE PACKAGE, it's not a complete song. demos are that...demos. 99.99999999% of the time, they are what they are...they SUCK.

The sad part is that she waited 20 years to re-record the song and her voice is shot (why she even bothered after those other sonic drivel-laden demos, I'll never know). If those were finished tracks...outtakes...or something more "meaningful" than "demos", then shame on Fleetwood Mac.

What MAKES the SYW version? JOHN McVIE!!!! Had John been able to come up with that bass line in 1982, we might've had a shot at a decent recording, but alas, he didn't. As, Peter Green said, "Oh Well".

Originally Posted by chiliD

Compared to the instrumentation on the SYW version, that old outtake must've been done by a garage band of 9 yr olds.

Love those two posts!!

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by David

I suggested the probability that Lindsey shaped the 1981 recording, but what I really meant was that Fleetwood Mac obviously shaped the performance. Their signature is all over it (pace Ken Caillat, who maintained that Mac never tracked it), which is why I don't view the 1981-vs.-2003-Smile debate as being one of Stevie Nicks vs. Fleetwood Mac. Both treatments are Fleetwood Mac treatments--the preference for one or the other comes down to which Fleetwood Mac treatment you prefer.

For whatever reason, as often as this subject has come up, I've never seen you say this before. I know I've asked the question about Smile at You and probably Make Me a Mask too, because we talked about Lewry's book being awful. And I remember your comparing Mask to Lindsey's Tango phase. But I didn't remember you saying this about identifying FM on Smile at You and I'm very glad to hear it.

Michele

[David]

Originally Posted by michelej1

For whatever reason, as often as this subject has come up, I've never seen you say this before. I know I've asked the question about Smile at You and probably Make Me a Mask too, because we talked about Lewry's book being awful.

For the years in question, Lewry didn't have access to primary sources. When he wrote that such-and-such on the 1980 live album was recorded in 1977, he was just guessing--or, more than likely, parroting what he heard on the Internet from all of us. You know how sometimes you tell somebody a story about what happened to you, & he tells it to someone else, & so on, & then when you finally hear it again, you can recognize that it's your story but it's been botched? That's what it's like reading Lewry.

And I remember your comparing Mask to Lindsey's Tango phase.

I don't remember that, but I probably said that Mask was part of that experimental Orientalism phase Lindsey was in--adding intros & instrumentation to songs based on the five-tone, or pentatonic, scales of the Mysterious East. I tend to think of that phase as belonging to the late '80s, but then I remember that the guitar ostinato on Gypsy is built on a pentatonic scale--& that was what? 1981? Lindsey has mentioned some of the French composers, hasn't he? Debussy? Ravel? Satie? That's probably where he heard his pentatonic scales in abundance.

We know that Lindsey listens from time to time to "classical" music. He also obviously borrows themes occasionally from the great composers. In fact, I was listening to VBO the other day in the car, to test out my new CD deck, & Everywhere comes on. The lead-out with the chorus has a theme from Rachmaninov in the synth-guitar line! That's what that melodic tidbit is from. Can someone here -- Jason? Stew? -- help me place that melody? Is it from the 2nd Piano Concerto? from one of the symphonies? I already checked the Adagio from the 2nd Piano Concerto & it's not that.

But I didn't remember you saying this about identifying FM on Smile at You and I'm very glad to hear it.

I've always thought it's Fleetwood Mac playing. I even think it's Fleetwood Mac playing on the earlier one.

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[johnb84]

Someone said in another thread this may be performed live at Night of 1000 Stevies. Fingers are crossed!

What a Million Dollar Bill!