Smile At You... philosophical question

louielouie2000 · #1 02-27-2011, 02:38 PM

So I'm listening to random tracks from Say You Will right now, and Smile At You just came on. I know when the album was released, Smile At You unleashed a holy wrath from Stevie fans who had enjoyed the demos of this song for decades. Many of us felt the song had been totally ruined, and placed the blame squarely on Lindsey.

However, listening to the song just now I have to say had I never heard the demos, I'd think Smile At You was pretty awesome. I think the production is very neat... definitely cutting edge. It's very dark and mystical in a totally new way. Had I never heard the demos, I might just have thought this song was one of the neatest and most progressive things Stevie'd ever done in the Mac.

So the question is, does everything think they might have enjoyed Smile At You had you not heard the old demos first? Or do you still hold by your opinions that the song just isn't very good?

mikebise · #2 02-27-2011, 02:43 PM

No, I think any song where Stevie doesn't even sing on her own chorus is terrible. All those whispering LBs make my stomach turn.

There's no climx to the song. It just goes along on a slow buzzzzzzzzzzzz... and then is over.

I love Stevie's voice on "I am older now, but I still remember!" but that's about all I like about this version of the song. Had it been my first exposure to "Smile At You", I would have said, "No wonder it's been in a vault since 1977."

"Cutting edge"? For 2003???

Artemis · #3 02-27-2011, 02:44 PM

I think I heard the original song before I heard the demos. And, at the time, I thought that the verses were good, and she sounded great... but then that awful bloody chorus with the "oooh aaaahs" and what not. I can't warm to that at all, it's pure garbage. One example of a great Stevie song ruined by Lindsey's production.

sorcerer999 · #4 02-27-2011, 02:47 PM

If I had never heard the demo, then this song would probably be my favorite off the record. I don't think it's bad, by any means, but I've been listening to the demo for years and was just very disappointed when I heard the new version. Yes it has a bit of passion, but not the WRATH that the demo had when it was originally written/recorded.

Nowadays, I think of the demo and the SYW version as two different songs. It's easier for me to enjoy both of them that way. One was pure raw emotion, the other was wisdom from looking back and learning. I'm sure that's kind of stupid, but that's how I look at it. I really do love the instrumentation and Stevie's vocal on the SYW version. Lindsey's "turned away and ran...fast as I can" line still kind of bugs me though, as it's one of the great lines that Stevie sings in the original demo.

But to answer your question. Yes, had I not heard the demo, I would have been happy with the song.

"Running Through The Garden" still remains my fav off of SYW. That one REALLY IS a lot better than the original demo.

LittleCharmer · #5 02-27-2011, 03:00 PM

I don't think that the Stevie of today, with her changed voice, will ever quite manage to convey the same fury through her voice as she did in some of her older demos.
Having said that, once I got over the fact that LB had altered Smile At You so dramatically, it grew on me a lot and I now see it as a very good, updated version, rather than a ruinous abomination.
Stevie's voice is powerful and dramatic in a different way to the vocals of the demos, and the production and musical arrangement brings it out well. I like the way the instrumentation is sparse in the verses and more layered during the choruses, and the guitar during the bridge is excellent.

David · #6 02-27-2011, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by louielouie2000

So the question is, does everything think they might have enjoyed Smile At You had you not heard the old demos first? Or do you still hold by your opinions that the song just isn't very good?

The song itself is an excellent lyric, but this treatment of it is trashy, like the B side of a one-hit-wonder band from the late '80s. The lead vocal is boring & unpleasant to my ears: it's an overtly trebly electronic sound that isn't flattering to Stevie's natural nasality at all. It's too flangey or phased or something.

Even if I had never heard the two earlier renditions of it with Fleetwood Mac, I'd still not like this one. People throw around the phrase "overproduced" a lot, sometimes without knowing what it actually means, but this track is undeniably overproduced. It's like a Rob Cohen movie treatment, but beyond amped-up kinesis into enervated, artificial exhaustion. Everything that was bad about the Tango in the Night album has been used here, but nothing that was good. The whole thing sounds as if it came directly from the demo function on the old Yamaha DX-7.

skuncles · #7 02-27-2011, 03:15 PM

Really tough to say if I'd like it without having heard the demo. The problem with the album version is the heart of the song was removed. The demo (there's a couple), but the "angry version" is dripping with venom and that's what it makes it so great. She's hurt, she's angry and the line "my first mistake was to smile at you..." says SO much. The album version has little to no feeling or meaning. So I don't think my opinion of the song would have changed had I not heard the demo. I think it would have been a "this song would be better if..."

TrueFaith77 · #8 02-27-2011, 03:40 PM

For a long time, it was my least favorite song on the album. But now whenever I get to this song I find it's a sonic adventure. John is so great on this song.

sparky · #9 02-27-2011, 03:58 PM

I saw this thread and went and listened to the song for the first time in ages.

There isn't a way to realistically remove the experience of knowing this song and the various demos for the past 30 plus years. Especially due to the fact that I have been nuts about it for all this time. But, in my library the next two songs that played were Fireflies and Call On Me For Magic. And that helped to bring into vivid relief the things that I do not like about the SYW version.

There are things I like about the newer version. The bass line is a monster and the placement of it in the mix could be even more prominent throughout. It is one of JM's best bass lines ever. Vocally, as was pointed out previously, the delivery of "I am older now but I still remember" is excellent. Even though Stevie's range and vocal timbre have changed for the worse in a lot of ways, the way she sings that line is a brief but powerful example of the emotion and gravity she can wield when she is in the zone and is recorded properly. My favorite part of this version is the acoustic overlay in the outro. Musically, that section makes me wish the entire song had been recorded in the same simplistic and unadorned manner. It starts simply too. The spare, minor note intro is foreboding and kind of sad. I think that was the only thing the song needed - spare guitar, that slamming bass line, and maybe a layer of extra guitar in a few spots.

That's the real problem with this version of the song. It isn't simple enough. There is too much going on and it is distracting. The structure is strong, the lyrics are direct and powerful, and for once, Stevie actually nailed the bridge. It is short, blunt and stops the song dead in its tracks. Bridges are one of her biggest weaknesses as a writer, and when she gets a bridge right, leave it. Just leave it alone. Give it some silence so it can resonate. The song could realistically end right there. The problem is, the song just goes right back into its chugging, muddy, fog filled fuzziness. All the strength and directness of the song is shrouded by the soupy sonic mess LB lays over it. The chorus sounds terrible. For me it shines a harsh light on everything that is wrong with the way LB produces things anymore. Those whispery vocals of his are a cringe producing precious PITA. So is the vocal processing. It was an interesting and fresh studio trick 20 + years ago. Now it is just stupid. Just let the song be what it is. Play it, give it room to breathe. All the studio effects and knob twisting are like piling cool whip and chocolate sprinkles onto a perfectly made cake. The flavors get mixed up. It confuses the taste buds. In this case it just fills my ears with a bunch of superfluous crap that gets in the way of a solid, powerful, direct composition. As we all know, that isn't Stevies strong suit as a writer. So let the song stand on its own. In this case it actually can, so get the f-k out if its way.

Same thing with the vocals. Just sit her ass on a stool and turn on the mic. Don't process the hell out of it. COMFM is that kind of vocal. So is Fireflies. The woman can still sing. All she needs is a little echo and some added top end. Please do not put her through the vocal equivalent of a cuisinart. It is annoying and pulls focus from the entire point - her voice still can pack an emotional punch. Even more than it used to in some cases. She really knows what to do with her voice now and given the right environment she does. That road weary croak factor is real and earned now. Let us hear every gravelly, exhausted, strained edge of it. Any relatively experienced producer can inject technical wizardry into a recording in order to show off his skills. Sometimes less is more, and it takes a selfless and sensitive artist to step away, see that a song is done, and leave it the hell alone.

So no, I wouldn't have liked this version, even without the original demos to remind me. I think LB got too busy in the kitchen and messed a really solid song up with a bunch of extras it didn't need. It isn't the first time he has done it, but this is one of his most egregious offenses.

sparky · #10 02-27-2011, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

The song itself is an excellent lyric, but this treatment of it is trashy, like the B side of a one-hit-wonder band from the late '80s... it's an overtly trebly electronic sound that isn't flattering to Stevie's natural nasality at all...People throw around the phrase "overproduced" a lot, sometimes without knowing what it actually means, but this track is undeniably overproduced... beyond amped-up kinesis into enervated, artificial exhaustion. Everything that was bad about the Tango in the Night album has been used here, but nothing that was good.

Bingo. Bingo. And bingo.

Christopher · #11 02-27-2011, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sparky

I saw this thread and went and listened to the song for the first time in ages.

There isn't a way to realistically remove the experience of knowing this song and the various demos for the past 30 plus years. Especially due to the fact that I have been nuts about it for all this time. But, in my library the next two songs that played were Fireflies and Call On Me For Magic. And that helped to bring into vivid relief the things that I do not like about the SYW version.

There are things I like about the newer version. The bass line is a monster and the placement of it in the mix could be even more prominent throughout. It is one of JM's best bass lines ever. Vocally, as was pointed out previously, the delivery of "I am older now but I still remember" is excellent. Even though Stevie's range and vocal timbre have changed for the worse in a lot of ways, the way she sings that line is a brief but powerful example of the emotion and gravity she can wield when she is in the zone and is recorded properly. My favorite part of this version is the acoustic overlay in the outro. Musically, that section makes me wish the entire song had been recorded in the same simplistic and unadorned manner. It starts simply too. The spare, minor note intro is foreboding and kind of sad. I think that was the only thing the song needed - spare guitar, that slamming bass line, and maybe a layer of extra guitar in a few spots.

That's the real problem with this version of the song. It isn't simple enough. There is too much going on and it is distracting. The structure is strong, the lyrics are direct and powerful, and for once, Stevie actually nailed the bridge. It is short, blunt and stops the song dead in its tracks. Bridges are one of her biggest weaknesses as a writer, and when she gets a bridge right, leave it. Just leave it alone. Give it some silence so it can resonate. The song could realistically end right there. The problem is, the song just goes right back into its chugging, muddy, fog filled fuzziness. All the strength and directness of the song is shrouded by the soupy sonic mess LB lays over it. The chorus sounds terrible. For me it shines a harsh light on everything that is wrong with the way LB produces things anymore. Those whispery vocals of his are a cringe producing precious PITA. So is the vocal processing. It was an interesting and fresh studio trick 20 + years ago. Now it is just stupid. Just let the song be what it is. Play it, give it room to breathe. All the studio effects and knob twisting are like piling cool whip and chocolate sprinkles onto a perfectly made cake. The flavors get mixed up. It confuses the taste buds. In this case it just fills my ears with a bunch of superfluous crap that gets in the way of a solid, powerful, direct composition. As we all know, that isn't Stevies strong suit as a writer. So let the song stand on its own. In this case it actually can, so get the f-k out if its way.

Same thing with the vocals. Just sit her ass on a stool and turn on the mic. Don't process the hell out of it. COMFM is that kind of vocal. So is Fireflies. The woman can still sing. All she needs is a little echo and some added top end. Please do not put her through the vocal equivalent of a cuisinart. It is annoying and pulls focus from the entire point - her voice still can pack an emotional punch. Even more than it used to in some cases. She really knows what to do with her voice now and given the right environment she does. That road weary croak factor is real and earned now. Let us hear every gravelly, exhausted, strained edge of it. Any relatively experienced producer can inject technical wizardry into a recording in order to show off his skills. Sometimes less is more, and it takes a selfless and sensitive artist to step away, see that a song is done, and leave it the hell alone.

So no, I wouldn't have liked this version, even without the original demos to remind me. I think LB got too busy in the kitchen and messed a really solid song up with a bunch of extras it didn't need. It isn't the first time he has done it, but this is one of his most egregious offenses.

Great post Sparky. You nailed it! Leaving no stone unturned.

WildHearted · #12 02-27-2011, 04:15 PM

My problem with the album version has nothing to do with Stevie's voice. While it's not quite as furious as it was on the demos by any means, it still conveys the emotion convincingly enough for me to enjoy it. My problems with it lie completely in its production and instrumentation. Quite frankly it just isn't good and imo doesn't feel/jive right with the song at all. There's too much going on. The song speaks for itself and doesn't need all of the extra crap.

In other words, I completely agree with Sparky.

Also: I heard the album version before the demo. The album version still wasn't good.

starshine · #13 02-27-2011, 05:09 PM

I'll always perfer the Mirage Smile At You outtake than the SYW version. Her emotion on the Mirage version is just there--you can't fake that. Plus I do think the lyrics are changed which I don't like after hearing this outtake. (Just like I don't like the lyric changes to Listen To The Rain compared to the original demo or is it outtake from '91 ? ) I don't like lyric changes when they don't make sense or add anything to it. The Tusk Smile is ok but its a little bit shorter I believe so I'll always like the Mirage version the best. I'm not saying that you can't make any demo/outtake better but its all a matter of taste and what you like. So the Mirage outtake is always what I'll like. If you like the SYW version thats ok too. Theres not a right or wrong.

CADreaming · #14 02-27-2011, 05:41 PM

I prefer the SYW version and I heard it before I heard the demo. I like the demo fine - the "angry version" as everyone calls it - but it sounds like she's stripping her vocal chords.

But, if I'm using the correct technical terminology, I like the production in the SYW version. It ties everything together. The way the music tracks are layered with the background voclas and the way John's bass line stand out gives it the solid foundation it needs. I also like the way Stevie's background vocals wrap around her lead vocal in a haunting way. I think her voice is still very strong here and the emotion projects through in a way that is still very forceful and even reminiscent of the demo. My favorite part of it is the ending - LB's flamenco guitar work with Mick's bongos add a sweet fade out. Nice touch.

If I had heard the demo prior to the SYW version I would still prefer the SYW version. I think of what Lindsey said recently in an interview when he was asked how he felt about the demos being bootlegged - he said there's a reason they remained demos or were cut from albums and so he wasn't too thrilled about them floating around for public consumption. I have to say that is a producer's prerogative. It makes me sad for the artists in a way, because the fans may have been much more supportive if they had never heard these songs for years in demo form, expecting a finished work to sound practically identical. And, it makes everyone play producer. What do we know? Some more than others, obviously. But, I haven't heard Stevie's raw vocal tracks or the individual music tracks. For all I know, Lindsey was working around everyone's limitations the best way he could.

I will never understand how we can all be Fleetwood Mac fans (?) and have such harsh criticisms for Lindsey Buckingham's work as their producer.

mitzo · #15 02-27-2011, 05:43 PM

I love the SYW version of Smile at You and find the complexity of the production addictive. There is a lot going on in the song as recorded this way and it matches the sentiments expressed beautifully. Every time I listen I find a new twist or trick that makes me want more. Her vocals give me the creeps and the floating, complicated instrumentation and hovering background vocals and whispers really convey confusion, heat, anger, and despair brilliantly. Just my opinion, but from the first time I heard it it has been "oh my god, guys!"