The Last "Full" Mac Tracks: BTLH & SYHA

[holidayroad]

Originally Posted by Nikolaj

I'm gonna be a total chickensh*t and bury my very subjective observation in this thread, and I realize my opinion is only that, a matter of opinion. 'Bleed To Love Her' got me thinking...for all the crap Stevie has taken for some of her lyrics, I think she's head and shoulders above Lindsey as a songwriter. He is a brilliant musician, guitarist, recording studio master, (well, if one chooses to forgive how he murdered 'Smile At You').
But dang, LB has written so many truly lousy songs and doesn't get called on it.
Why have this opinion? 'Lola,My Love'; much of his 'Tusk' material (though I find 'Walk A Thin Line' sublime and maybe his best, ever) just about all of his 'Tango In The Night' material (though I love the title song, it's a killer!) But 'Oh Diane' 'Caroline' and 'Family Man', are all such inferior songs, they make even the most-criticized Stevie songs ('Welcome To The Room, Sara') sound absolutely profound. She has had the airhead label, why the hell hasn't he?
I'm sorry to the LB fans, and I do think he's a big part of what makes Fleetwood Mac great, but I think 70% of LB's songs are vacuous, uninspired, or just forgettable, and I'd say SN 70% of the time will wind up writing something really good. She deserves more credit.
I guess 'Bleed To Love Her' being included on 2 Fleetwood Mac albums reminded me how extremely limited I think LB is as a songwriter.
About 13 years ago, back on AOL, when they had jumping music message boards, I unintentionally started some huge debate that seemed to go on forever when I stated that, in my opinion, Stevie Nicks was "the voice of Fleetwood Mac"... Generally, that opinion didn't go over so well, my favorite response was "She most certainly is NOT. There is no voice of Fleetwood Mac!"
So, all these years later, I'll say now that I think Stevie is the songwriter of Fleetwood Mac. Christine was great, without a ton of misfires. But, I'd still say great as she was, CM had no 'Rhiannon', no 'Silver Springs', no 'Beautiful Child' or 'Sara'... Nor did she or LB have the enduring classics I'm so sick of-- 'Dreams' and 'Landslide'.
Stevie's songwriting just doesn't seem to be recognized as it should be for helping make Fleetwood Mac work so well as a unit, or am I wrong? Yet, CM and LB always seemed to have that built-in respect without question. I know Christine wrote many hits for the band, and is a good songwriter.
But I think Stevie is the unsung songwriting hero(ine) of the band.
Nyet?

I'll start off by saying that Lindsey is my favorite member of Fleetwood Mac. (obvious, right?). I agree that some of the lyrics from his songs could have been better (or longer). Stevie and Christine's songs tend to tell a story and some of Lindsey's songs have felt more like the lyrics were an afterthought. I feel with Say You Will, Under the Skin, and Gift of Screws, his lyric writing ability (or the effort he put toward the writing) has Greatly improved.

As for Christine, I think her songs are lyrically well written and always have been. She does a great job of having lyrics that seem to be universal. She tends to write about things we've all been through.

Stevie's songs, well, she has some songs with excellent lyrics. Those songs tell a story in an interesting and heartfelt way. Yet, I admit that sometimes, I have absolutely no idea what some of her lyrics are supposed to mean. She often writes cryptic lines to get across a simple point.

[Little Nicki]

Originally Posted by Nikolaj

I'm gonna be a total chickensh*t and bury my very subjective observation in this thread, and I realize my opinion is only that, a matter of opinion. 'Bleed To Love Her' got me thinking...for all the crap Stevie has taken for some of her lyrics, I think she's head and shoulders above Lindsey as a songwriter. He is a brilliant musician, guitarist, recording studio master, (well, if one chooses to forgive how he murdered 'Smile At You').
But dang, LB has written so many truly lousy songs and doesn't get called on it.
Why have this opinion? 'Lola,My Love'; much of his 'Tusk' material (though I find 'Walk A Thin Line' sublime and maybe his best, ever) just about all of his 'Tango In The Night' material (though I love the title song, it's a killer!) But 'Oh Diane' 'Caroline' and 'Family Man', are all such inferior songs, they make even the most-criticized Stevie songs ('Welcome To The Room, Sara') sound absolutely profound. She has had the airhead label, why the hell hasn't he?
I'm sorry to the LB fans, and I do think he's a big part of what makes Fleetwood Mac great, but I think 70% of LB's songs are vacuous, uninspired, or just forgettable, and I'd say SN 70% of the time will wind up writing something really good. She deserves more credit.
I guess 'Bleed To Love Her' being included on 2 Fleetwood Mac albums reminded me how extremely limited I think LB is as a songwriter.
About 13 years ago, back on AOL, when they had jumping music message boards, I unintentionally started some huge debate that seemed to go on forever when I stated that, in my opinion, Stevie Nicks was "the voice of Fleetwood Mac"... Generally, that opinion didn't go over so well, my favorite response was "She most certainly is NOT. There is no voice of Fleetwood Mac!"
So, all these years later, I'll say now that I think Stevie is the songwriter of Fleetwood Mac. Christine was great, without a ton of misfires. But, I'd still say great as she was, CM had no 'Rhiannon', no 'Silver Springs', no 'Beautiful Child' or 'Sara'... Nor did she or LB have the enduring classics I'm so sick of-- 'Dreams' and 'Landslide'.
Stevie's songwriting just doesn't seem to be recognized as it should be for helping make Fleetwood Mac work so well as a unit, or am I wrong? Yet, CM and LB always seemed to have that built-in respect without question. I know Christine wrote many hits for the band, and is a good songwriter.
But I think Stevie is the unsung songwriting hero(ine) of the band.
Nyet?

Christine was solid and consistent, whereas SN and LB tended to write some pretty polarizing stuff that people either loved or hated. Most people who have very strong opinions about one probably have the opposite strong opinion about the other.

Lindsey's thing has always been the studio. He's said he's not so much a songwriter but a craftsman, or whatever the word was that he used. He comes up with a song, however good or bad it initially is, and he makes it good by doing really interesting stuff to it in the studio. Stevie comes up with very primitive nuggets of songs, and Lindsey takes them and again, makes them interesting. Stevie HAS to be more into the songwriting because other than twirling and screaming her Stevie wails on stage, it's all she has. Lindsey has his studio thing so he can afford to write worse songs.

[bluefox4000]

Me too....you insulted Lindsey.......Ye must die!!!!!!!!! Just kidding I respect your opinion, even if i do disagree with it. I will however point out that stevie has had her share of awful stuff too. When i see you again, Welcome too the Room, That's alright, Illume(WTF), silver Girl, Straight Back. So we're even Naw i just have Lindsey bias.

Mick

[Christopher]

Originally Posted by bluefox4000

Me too....you insulted Lindsey.......Ye must die!!!!!!!!! Just kidding I respect your opinion, even if i do disagree with it. I will however point out that stevie has had her share of awful stuff too. When i see you again, Welcome too the Room, That's alright, Illume(WTF), silver Girl, Straight Back. So we're even Naw i just have Lindsey bias.

Mick

The songs I highlighted are more loved by fans than you think. Stevie's songwriting clunker's, generally speaking judging by the amount of debate & critique on this board and other fan boards, began on "Tango" (except Seven Wonders, which she didn't write) through "Behind The Mask". Which could have been easily remedied, if Fleetwood Mac had chosen to pursue some of Stevies stronger demos for these projects. "Juliet" & "Joan of Arc" are much better compositions, in my opinion, than what was chosen for "Tango". And are up there of the most beloved Stevie demos and outtakes.

[bluefox4000]

Fair enough. The bold songs may be loved by more then I think (and i know they are) but I still hate them lol. but that's just me. I agree about outtakes and demos though good stuff

Mick

[seekerj]

Originally Posted by bluefox4000

Me too....you insulted Lindsey.......Ye must die!!!!!!!!! Just kidding I respect your opinion, even if i do disagree with it. I will however point out that stevie has had her share of awful stuff too. When i see you again, Welcome too the Room, That's alright, Illume(WTF), silver Girl, Straight Back. So we're even Naw i just have Lindsey bias.

Mick

Yes, Stevie has, but, I love every song you listed. I would have to replace those songs with anything written over a Rick Nowels track (who it seems to me has only written one track in his life).

About Lindsey, I couldn't hate "Not That Funny", "Family Man" and any of his Mirage songs any more than I already do, but I think "Red Rover", "I'm So Afraid" and many, many more are masterpieces.

Christine's songs have always been just too "light" for me in general. Just not serious enough. They were always good songs musically, just lacking intensity lyrically. Although I love "Why".

[bluefox4000]

Well that's the beauty of opinions.....I HATE HATE Red Rover and I know people enjoy That's alright....but WAY to overt country for me. I hate country. But Alas we have to agree to disagree

Mick

Oh and I love not that funny, but agree about Family man.

For the most part I love Chris songs. Save for Never make me Cry, Brown eyes, and Honey hi.

[seekerj]

Originally Posted by bluefox4000

Well that's the beauty of opinions.....I HATE HATE Red Rover and I know people enjoy That's alright....but WAY to overt country for me. I hate country. But Alas we have to agree to disagree

Mick

Oh and I love not that funny, but agree about Family man.

For the most part I love Chris songs. Save for Never make me Cry, Brown eyes, and Honey hi.

Mick, I get the impression that you feel about country the same way I feel about dance music, which is why "Everybody Finds Out" makes me want to gouge my own eyes out!

But I do like country-influenced songs, and "That's Alright" is a great song to help you out when you're trying to convince yourself that you don't love someone anymore and that you are capable of moving on.

I just thought of a couple of Christine songs that I just can't deal with ... "Save Me" and "Skies The Limit". Pure torture. Especially "Skies The Limit"; all I hear is "whine, whine, whine". lol

Jim

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by Nikolaj

Stevie's songwriting just doesn't seem to be recognized as it should be for helping make Fleetwood Mac work so well as a unit, or am I wrong? Yet, CM and LB always seemed to have that built-in respect without question. I know Christine wrote many hits for the band, and is a good songwriter.
But I think Stevie is the unsung songwriting hero(ine) of the band.
Nyet?

No. I'd say Stevie is a great songwriter if songwriting consisted of lyrics only. Even then . . .

It was Sara that brought me to FM. I'd heard Rumours and White album songs, but Sara made me want to get the album and find out who the band was.

So I admire her misty lyrics and the ephemeral thoughts they evoke, along with her once passionate and soaring vocals. But I see nothing to exalt her contributions above everyone else's. And I don't think there's anything "unsung" about her. I think her talents are well-recognized, for what they are.

Michele

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by seekerj

About Lindsey, I couldn't hate "Not That Funny", "Family Man" and any of his Mirage songs any more than I already do, but I think "Red Rover", "I'm So Afraid" and many, many more are masterpieces.

And the thing about Lindsey is that people often separate the music from the lyrics. I think Time Precious Time is coma inducing, but I can't disagree with those who admire the guitar-playing.

After The Dance aired on tv and people were talking about how great Big Love was, it wasn't the lyrics they were into. No one was claiming that those animal grunts Lindsey made were enthralling. They didn't have to be. The speed, dexterity and emotion of his playing made the words a soundtrack to enhance the music, rather than the other way around.

Michele

[David]

Originally Posted by michelej1

So I admire her misty lyrics and the ephemeral thoughts they evoke, along with her once passionate and soaring vocals. But I see nothing to exalt her contributions above everyone else's.

Over the years, I've noticed that she largely attracts youth who write poetry (or who read Sylvia Plath & Adrienne Rich--& perhaps Hermann Hesse & Rumer Godden books). There are generalizations one can draw about Stevie's admirers, whereas try to generalize about Christine McVie fans. Who are they? We can cite names of people (me, for one), but do they share specific characteristics in hobbies, proclivities, aesthetics?

It's part of what fascinates me about Chris McVie--to whom & how she speaks. It's very subtle. Walk into a Stevie Nicks fan's bedroom. It isn't very subtle. But walk into a Chris McVie fan's bedroom. What on earth would you expect to see? If you can think of anything, would you lay any odds on it?

[HejiraNYC]

Originally Posted by David

Over the years, I've noticed that she largely attracts youth who write poetry (or who read Sylvia Plath & Adrienne Rich--& perhaps Hermann Hesse & Rumer Godden books). There are generalizations one can draw about Stevie's admirers, whereas try to generalize about Christine McVie fans. Who are they? We can cite names of people (me, for one), but do they share specific characteristics in hobbies, proclivities, aesthetics?

I picture Christine fans as being into wearing bootcut Mom jeans with tweed blazers and speaking with a slow, watered-down English drawl. They also tend to like dogs, shag haircuts, flower print scarves and the smell of cigars and leather. They like to spend their leisure moments nursing a hot cider or cup of tea while lounging outside in a large wicker chair.

I see these types everywhere.

[David]

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

I picture Christine fans as being into wearing bootcut Mom jeans with tweed blazers and speaking with a slow, watered-down English drawl. They also tend to like dogs, shag haircuts, flower print scarves and the smell of cigars and leather. They like to spend their leisure moments nursing a hot cider or cup of tea while lounging outside in a large wicker chair.

I see these types everywhere.

You're making fun of me now!!

Did you read the recently posted Healthcare Bill? It's only 2,310 pages in Portable Document Format (PDF).

I gave up after the first page. It triggered a migraine. Luckily, I can still afford Aleve.

[ButterCookie]

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

I picture Christine fans as being into wearing bootcut Mom jeans with tweed blazers and speaking with a slow, watered-down English drawl. They also tend to like dogs, shag haircuts, flower print scarves and the smell of cigars and leather. They like to spend their leisure moments nursing a hot cider or cup of tea while lounging outside in a large wicker chair.

I see these types everywhere.

I'm English, I adore tea, hate cider (It's all about a good beer), cigars make me cough and I'm currently wearing black drainpipes, a black leather jacket, Mac shirt, converse trainers and I have short cropped blonde hair

[bluefox4000]

Ok just have to say I hear Chris without a doubt on the bootleg gift of screws version Of BTLH more then on the say you will version. Just thought I'd Share.

Mick