Thoughts on the Afterlife, ghosts, and spirits.

[Zombie]

Originally Posted by fringed n fab

To me I feel she's proven herself to too many others that she's for real. And I don't say that to many "psychics". I don't think she needs to "prove" herself to anyone or accept someone elses money to take their "test".

How has she proven herself? Sylvia Browne is not only often wrong, but quite often, she's spectacularly wrong.

She told the missing Opal Jennings' parents that Opal had been abducted & sold into sexual slavery, and could be found at a certain town in Japan. Unfortunately, the town name she gave doesn't even exist, and Opal's remains were found about 13 miles from her home in Texas. Medical examiners determined she'd been killed within hours of her abduction. She was never in Japan. See also Shawn Hornbeck, Holly Krewson, Lynda McClelland, and Ryan Katcher.

Even worse than the terrible things she's been known to say to grieving people, I think, are her bad habits of dispensing sketchy medical advice without the benefit of being a doctor.

She told James Randi that he absolutely had something wrong with the left ventricle of his heart when they were on the Larry King Live show together. Subsequent medical testing showed his heart was absolutely fine.

She told another woman that her husband had died of "a clot" in his brain, when it was actually a hemorrhage. A clot is the exact opposite of a hemorrhage.

She told a woman who had been having pain in her stomach since a surgery and who had been to 30-odd doctors who couldn't find anything wrong that during her surgery, an instrument had been left in there and that was what was causing the pain. She told the woman to go to a new doctor, not tell him about the surgery or any previous things, and request an MRI which would show the instrument that had been left in her body. I don't know if the woman ever did follow that advice, but I hope not. If she really did have a surgical instrument left in her body as Sylvia said, and went to get an MRI as Sylvia told her to do, then the MRI would've ripped it right out of her body if the instrument happened to be metal. Bad idea.

I could go on.

Has she been "right" or nearly right some of the time? Sure. But if you say things constantly, you're eventually going to be right about some of those things you've said. That's what's called "shotgunning."

You'll see that when she's "right," her "correct" predictions are vague or just common sense stuff, such as her prediction that in August/September of 2004, "hurricanes will hit the Florida Keys and Mexico."

Did that happen? Yes. But August/September is well into hurricane season, and hurricanes have a habit of smacking into the Keys and Mexico. You don't need psychic powers to make that "prediction."

Does Sylvia Browne have to prove herself to anyone? As long as she's accepting money for trotting out her dog & pony show, absolutely she does.

And if she's so for real, what's wrong with actually going through with the Challenge she has accepted from James Randi? She doesn't have to keep that $1 million - she can donate it to charity, or refuse it entirely, if she's able to pass the test under the protocols that she herself agreed upon. If she can do it, why doesn't she go through with it? If she CAN'T do it, why did she accept the Challenge to begin with?

I'm pretty sure I know the answers to those last two questions.

Originally Posted by fringed n fab

To me, believing in man and science is a BAD thing because man will lead you to believe many things (his way) if you're not careful. That goes for a lot of churches too. I appreciate everyone's viewpoints on this and this issue always leads one way or the other and is to be expected. No one's ever "right" or "wrong" about it. It's our personal beliefs and views and what we feel about this whole thing. And that's ok

Being careful is, of course, important, which is why I said before that it's good to be open-minded, just not so open-minded that your brain falls out.

Are there people in the scientific community that are also intellectually dishonest? Absolutely. Biochemist Michael Behe is an excellent example of that, as is Deepak Chopra.

But science has given you many wonderful things, and to dismiss it out of hand is to do yourself and the world a grave disservice. Science is not "BAD." Without science, you wouldn't even be here right now to talk to us about Sylvia Browne.

Fortunately, though, science does not ask you to believe in it. It doesn't need you - or anyone else, for that matter - to believe in it. Science isn't about belief. You can take any proper current scientific theory (and by "proper," I mean one like gravity or Biological Evolutionary Theory, not Intelligent Design) and we can examine its mechanisms and results any time we choose with verifiable means that can be measured, counted, qualified, quantified, and observed. Belief won't have to come into play, because we can look at what's there, and when we look, we will see the same thing - it's not subjective. The same cannot be said for so-called psychic abilities, which is why I said these people want to play baseball with hockey sticks.

If you decide you don't want to accept what's there, that's your thing, do what you wanna do - but it doesn't mean you're right and it's wrong. It will carry on doing what it does regardless of your feelings about it.

But all of that aside, if man and science can lead you astray, then so can Sylvia Browne. She's not exempt.

Originally Posted by fringed n fab

You walk up to total strangers and just know this stuff about them?

Absolutely, if I was well-trained in the fine art of cold reading, which is what Char Margolis does.

That's also what Sylvia Browne does. Cold reading is rather fascinating, actually, and I give them props for being so good at it, but it doesn't negate the fact that it's still cold reading.

[daniellaaarisen]

All I know is that I'll be pissed if I can't watch my funeral/the immediate aftermath of my death from wherever I'll be

[LikeAWillow]

Originally Posted by daniellaaarisen

All I know is that I'll be pissed if I can't watch my funeral/the immediate aftermath of my death from wherever I'll be

Ultimate narcissist

Just so lovingly teasing Dani isn't my only contribution to this thread, as much as the romantic in me would love to believe in spirits, I just can't bring my mind to get on bored. It doesn't make sense. Does anyone around here know anything about the inexplicable weight that your body loses after death, though? I remember hearing about it somewhere, and it sounds intriguing, but I've never actually looked into it myself.

[Ghost_Tracker]

I'd like to put in my two cents on this; hopefully without anyone feeling that I'm getting on a soapbox or being preachy.

Here's what my thinking on this basically boils down to; and I really do feel that it's a reasonable way of looking at things - -

1.) There's certain "physical constants" that have to be EXACTLY the correct number in order for life to even be possible. I don't mean "life as we know it," necessarily, I mean that there CAN'T be life without it. One of them is called "Plank's constant," just to throw out an example. Those constants - EVERY SINGLE ONE of them - - - are EXACTLY what they need to be in order for life to exist.
I mean, that say a constant were 6.000003 instead of 6.000002 - there would be NO life. (Don't nail me on the percentages, anyone who knows more about this than I do - obviously I'm just throwing out random numbers in order to try to make my point.)

There's two and only two possibilities at that point, given the above.
The first is that there's literally millions of alternate universes, with an almost infinite number of physical constants, one of which - this one - just happens to have the correct ones. That's just absurd, it really is. And physicists think it's impossible from an energy point of view. The only other rational possibility at that point is design by intelligence. i.m.o., of course.

2.) Believe it or not, in some ways I think the universe is an incredibly SOFT place. Don't get me wrong, I know that many people have rough lives, etc., but that ultimately boils down to being someone's fault, not a problem with the design of the universe. Just for example, out of all the literally infinite possibilities, why should television be possible??? THINK about it, you have to have capacitors, resistors, metal has to be capable of broadcasting a signal, glass has to have properties which make it possible to put a coating of phosporous on it, the phosporous has to be able to glow certain colors to make the picture on the screen, the "electron gun" has to be able to shoot electrons at the screen in the first place - and that's an example from the 1940s. Computers are MUCH more complex than that. And I think natural chemical substances are the same way - water, for example, as the basis of life - - it has EXACTLY the properties which are necessary so that blood can bring nutrients and so on to the cells.

3.) Intelligence isn't necessary for life to reproduce. In fact, just the opposite is true. I'm not saying that evolution didn't happen. But it wasn't NECESSARY for intelligence to evolve. Especially not at such a high level. The existence of intelligence is (i.m.o.) contrary to the idea that everything evolved without any intelligent design. I feel that it just simply never would have happened; there's no REASON for it and so there's no impetus behind it - unless there was a Creator.

4.) I believe personally that the Big Bang happened. I think it's amazingly clear at this point. But the atheists try to point to that and say that it's evidence that there's no God. I think that's absurd; in fact, I feel that the exact opposite is true. Maybe I'm putting to much faith in "cause-and-effect" here, but it seems silly to me to think that all this would have come about in exactly this way (planets forming, etc.) without there being a "design" behind it. The odds are literally astronomical. But the MAIN thing is - it just simply never would have happened. TIME didn't even exist before the big bang. So it's not like there was this whole bunch of empty space waiting to be filled and all that happened is a few trillion years had to elapse until finally it happened randomly. There was no time. It just suddenly HAPPENED, and no one can understand why.

Here's another thing that's occurred to me - - - I'm not saying I DEFINITELY think it's true that there's a hell. But what if there IS? What if there's literally a one in a billion chance that if one doesn't at least make an honest effort to simply have Faith, then one will go to hell, LITERALLY for forever. I mean like, take 10 to the hundredth power years, and multiply that by a billion centuries. After that amount of time, God comes to you and says, so how do you like the VERY FIRST INCREDIBLY SMALL FRACTION OF A PART of burning in hell for forever? Some people feel that the idea of hell is absurd. My answer to that is - - - given what we're talking about here - - - SO WHAT!?

I also feel that the very complexity of the universe is something that indicates that there's a God. Things just simply don't have to be as complex as they are - time, space, physics, math, all of that stuff. Again, there's just no reason for it to be the way it is. There's literally an infinite number of other possibilities.

On top of all of that, I feel that there IS physical evidence that there is a God. An example is the (claimed) fact that the corpses of people who have been named as Saints have been dug up and examined (probably when being moved from one location to another, etc.) They don't decay, sometimes. That's FREAKY, and for me it's a "waker-upper." Another is these "out-of-body" experiences that people claim to have. I realize it can be argued that they're just dreams, but given the above, I don't see enough reason to question it.

Here's another idea that's occurred to me - - -

Maybe it's just this simple:

Is there a God?
Why WOULDN'T there be???

I feel that a bit of Faith is a healthy thing, and if I'm wrong, it just simply doesn't matter.

One other thing I'd like to point out - - - I feel that many people have certain misconceptions about the Catholic Church, and where they are in their thinking. (Not to open a whole can of worms, there...) MUCH of what people think is Dogma in the Catholic Church is actually just considered to be metaphor. The Adam and Eve story is a perfect example of that. Check out the New American Bible sometime, it flat-out says that the Adam and Eve story is an allegory and as much as admits that evolution probably happened.
These people aren't as stupid and uneducated as some people think they are, in fact, no where near. (i.m.o. again, of course.) And there's actually a Vatican Observatory - has been for centuries. I saw the astrophysicist/priest who runs it interviewed the other day, he's VERY bright and openly advocates, without any problems from higher-ups at the Vatican, the possibility of life on other planets and the big bang theory.

Anyway, when you put that all together, it boils down to a big huge yes for me, that there's probably a God.

[Zombie]

Originally Posted by LikeAWillow

Does anyone around here know anything about the inexplicable weight that your body loses after death, though? I remember hearing about it somewhere, and it sounds intriguing, but I've never actually looked into it myself.

Ahhh, the 21 Grams thing. There was a doctor once that decided to do experiments, positing that people weigh less after they die, because the soul has left the body and the soul must weigh something. He weighed dying people and he weighed dying dogs - you can read about him & his experiment here: http://www.snopes.com/religion/soulweight.asp

It's not "inexplicable weight," though. It can be explained by any number of factors, particularly within the confines of the experiment the good doctor there set up.

[fringed n fab]

Originally Posted by Ghost_Tracker

I'd like to put in my two cents on this; hopefully without anyone feeling that I'm getting on a soapbox or being preachy.

Here's what my thinking on this basically boils down to; and I really do feel that it's a reasonable way of looking at things - -

1.) There's certain "physical constants" that have to be EXACTLY the correct number in order for life to even be possible. I don't mean "life as we know it," necessarily, I mean that there CAN'T be life without it. One of them is called "Plank's constant," just to throw out an example. Those constants - EVERY SINGLE ONE of them - - - are EXACTLY what they need to be in order for life to exist.
I mean, that say a constant were 6.000003 instead of 6.000002 - there would be NO life. (Don't nail me on the percentages, anyone who knows more about this than I do - obviously I'm just throwing out random numbers in order to try to make my point.)

There's two and only two possibilities at that point, given the above.
The first is that there's literally millions of alternate universes, with an almost infinite number of physical constants, one of which - this one - just happens to have the correct ones. That's just absurd, it really is. And physicists think it's impossible from an energy point of view. The only other rational possibility at that point is design by intelligence. i.m.o., of course.

2.) Believe it or not, in some ways I think the universe is an incredibly SOFT place. Don't get me wrong, I know that many people have rough lives, etc., but that ultimately boils down to being someone's fault, not a problem with the design of the universe. Just for example, out of all the literally infinite possibilities, why should television be possible??? THINK about it, you have to have capacitors, resistors, metal has to be capable of broadcasting a signal, glass has to have properties which make it possible to put a coating of phosporous on it, the phosporous has to be able to glow certain colors to make the picture on the screen, the "electron gun" has to be able to shoot electrons at the screen in the first place - and that's an example from the 1940s. Computers are MUCH more complex than that. And I think natural things are the same way - water, for example, as the basis of life - - it has EXACTLY the properties which are necessary so that blood can bring nutrients and so on to the cells.

3.) Intelligence isn't necessary for life to reproduce. In fact, just the opposite is true. I'm not saying that evolution didn't happen. But it wasn't NECESSARY for intelligence to evolve. Especially not at such a high level. The existence of intelligence is (i.m.o.) contrary to the idea that everything evolved without any intelligent design to happen. I feel that it just simply never would have happened; there's no REASON for it and so there's no impetus behind it - unless there was a Creator.

4.) I believe personally that the Big Bang happened. I think it's amazingly clear at this point. But the atheists try to point to that and say that it's evidence that there's no God. I think that's absurd; in fact, I feel that the exact opposite is true. Maybe I'm putting to much faith in "cause-and-effect" here, but it seems silly to me to think that all this would have come about in exactly this way (planets forming, etc.) without there being a "design" behind it. The odds are literally astronomical. But the MAIN thing is - it just simply never would have happened. TIME didn't even exist before the big bang. So it's not like there was this whole bunch of empty space waiting to be filled and all that happened is a few trillion years had to elapse until finally it happened randomly. There was no time. It just suddenly HAPPENED, and no one can understand why.

Here's another thing that's occurred to me - - - I'm not saying I DEFINITELY think it's true that there's a hell. But what if there IS? What if there's literally a one in a billion chance that if one doesn't at least make an honest effort to simply have Faith, then one will go to hell, LITERALLY for forever. I mean like, take 10 to the hundredth power years, and multiply that by a billion centuries. After that amount of time, God comes to you and says, so how do you like the VERY FIRST INCREDIBLY SMALL FRACTION OF A PART of burning in hell for forever? Some people feel that the idea of hell is absurd. My answer to that is - - - given what we're talking about here - - - SO WHAT!?

I also feel that the very complexity of the universe is something that indicates that there's a God. Things just simply don't have to be as complex as they are - time, space, physics, math, all of that stuff. Again, there's just no reason for it to be the way it is. There's literally an infinite number of other possibilities.

On top of all of that, I feel that there IS physical evidence that there is a God. An example is the (claimed) fact that the corpses of people who have been named as Saints have been dug up and examined (probably when being moved from one location to another, etc.) They don't decay, sometimes. That's FREAKY, and for me it's a "waker-upper." Another is these "out-of-body" experiences that people claim to have. I realize it can be argued that they're just dreams, but given the above, I don't see enough reason to question it.

Here's another idea that's occurred to me - - -

Maybe it's just this simple:

Is there a God?
Why WOULDN'T there be???

I feel that a bit of Faith is a healthy thing, and if I'm wrong, it just simply doesn't matter.

One other thing I'd like to point out - - - I feel that many people have certain misconceptions about the Catholic Church, and where they are in their thinking. (Not to open a whole can of worms, there...) MUCH of what people think is Dogma in the Catholic Church is actually just considered to be metaphor. The Adam and Eve story is a perfect example of that. Check out the New American Bible sometime, it flat-out says that the Adam and Eve story is an allegory and as much as admits that evolution probably happened.
These people aren't as stupid and uneducated as some people think they are, in fact, no where near. (i.m.o. again, of course.) And there's actually a Vatican Observatory - has been for centuries. I saw the astrophysicist/priest who runs it interviewed the other day, he's VERY bright and openly advocates, without any problems from higher-ups at the Vatican, the possibility of life on other planets and the big bang theory.

Anyway, when you put that all together, it boils down to a big huge yes for me, that there's probably a God.

Well GT at least you believe in something. I always say I'd rather die believing in something, than nothing at all once the lights go out. To me that'd be one sad lonely death. I wouldn't want to be one of those people who don't even go through the whole afterlife tunnel experience and white light, and instead just horseshoe right back through the Left Door into another Godless creation again (if thats so*) There are good souls and there are dark souls for a reason. More on that later but I've also heard and read from many people who've "visited" and described this sad, dark, lonely place, called The Holding Place, others may call it Purgatory, where theres nothing but sad, lonely depressed, LOST souls walking around all over with the blankest of expressions in their eyes and faces, and that is where ones are supposed to go until they recognize God or accept him and they'll remain there until they do so. I wouldn't want to be in such a place when I die. I want to go out at least believing in something than nothing at all in my heart. But that's just me and my beliefs. Everyone's free to believe what they will. This isn't church and I didn't start this thread to preach to anyone. Just stating what (I) believe.

[Ghost_Tracker]

Originally Posted by fringed n fab

Everyone's free to believe what they will. This isn't church and I didn't start this thread to preach to anyone. Just stating what (I) believe.

Amen. ( )

[Zombie]

Originally Posted by Ghost_Tracker

1.) There's certain "physical constants" that have to be EXACTLY the correct number in order for life to even be possible. I don't mean "life as we know it," necessarily, I mean that there CAN'T be life without it. One of them is called "Plank's constant," just to throw out an example. Those constants - EVERY SINGLE ONE of them - - - are EXACTLY what they need to be in order for life to exist.
I mean, that say a constant were 6.000003 instead of 6.000002 - there would be NO life. (Don't nail me on the percentages, anyone who knows more about this than I do - obviously I'm just throwing out random numbers in order to try to make my point.)

There's two and only two possibilities at that point, given the above.
The first is that there's literally millions of alternate universes, with an almost infinite number of physical constants, one of which - this one - just happens to have the correct ones. That's just absurd, it really is. And physicists think it's impossible from an energy point of view. The only other rational possibility at that point is design by intelligence. i.m.o., of course.

Well, just because something looks like it was designed, doesn't mean it is/was designed. We do not have a definitely designed or definitely not-designed universe to compare ours to, so while it may sound good on the surface to say that the only "rational possibility" is design by intelligence, that's being a bit disingenuous. There's no basis for that.

I'd love to have the names of the physicists you are referring to, though, so I can check out their work. I am not aware of any physicists that say this.

However, I will say that I fail to see how the idea of Many Worlds is any more "absurd" than an invisible cosmic daddy in the sky designing things.

And yes, if Planck's Constant were a different number, things might not work properly here for us or whatever - but that doesn't mean that it could NEVER be a different number. Perhaps there's another factor that would need to be adjusted along with Planck's Constant and everything would chug along just fine again.

Originally Posted by Ghost_Tracker

2.) Believe it or not, in some ways I think the universe is an incredibly SOFT place. Don't get me wrong, I know that many people have rough lives, etc., but that ultimately boils down to being someone's fault, not a problem with the design of the universe. Just for example, out of all the literally infinite possibilities, why should television be possible??? THINK about it, you have to have capacitors, resistors, metal has to be capable of broadcasting a signal, glass has to have properties which make it possible to put a coating of phosporous on it, the phosporous has to be able to glow certain colors to make the picture on the screen, the "electron gun" has to be able to shoot electrons at the screen in the first place - and that's an example from the 1940s. Computers are MUCH more complex than that. And I think natural things are the same way - water, for example, as the basis of life - - it has EXACTLY the properties which are necessary so that blood can bring nutrients and so on to the cells.

Television is possible because a bunch of folks got together and figured out how to make one. Much in the same way a hammer is possible. Or a sanded block of wood. One need only observe that certain things have certain properties, and when combined, they make something else.

There are plenty of things you could stick together that won't make a TV, or a hammer, or a sanded block of wood. Just because we can stick some things together to make that happen is not evidence of design.

Originally Posted by Ghost_Tracker

3.) Intelligence isn't necessary for life to reproduce. In fact, just the opposite is true. I'm not saying that evolution didn't happen. But it wasn't NECESSARY for intelligence to evolve. Especially not at such a high level. The existence of intelligence is (i.m.o.) contrary to the idea that everything evolved without any intelligent design. I feel that it just simply never would have happened; there's no REASON for it and so there's no impetus behind it - unless there was a Creator.

Why does there have to be a reason?

Originally Posted by Ghost_Tracker

4.) I believe personally that the Big Bang happened. I think it's amazingly clear at this point. But the atheists try to point to that and say that it's evidence that there's no God. I think that's absurd; in fact, I feel that the exact opposite is true. Maybe I'm putting to much faith in "cause-and-effect" here, but it seems silly to me to think that all this would have come about in exactly this way (planets forming, etc.) without there being a "design" behind it. The odds are literally astronomical. But the MAIN thing is - it just simply never would have happened. TIME didn't even exist before the big bang. So it's not like there was this whole bunch of empty space waiting to be filled and all that happened is a few trillion years had to elapse until finally it happened randomly. There was no time. It just suddenly HAPPENED, and no one can understand why.

This atheist does not point to the Big Bang and say that's evidence there's no god. Nor do many atheists I know. This atheist does, however, point out respectfully that if there can be a First Cause that is an Uncaused Cause (aka a god), then the Big Bang could also be an Uncaused Cause, particularly if, as you said before, intelligence isn't necessary for life to reproduce. Why should it be necessary for the origins of the universe?

Originally Posted by Ghost_Tracker

Here's another thing that's occurred to me - - - I'm not saying I DEFINITELY think it's true that there's a hell. But what if there IS? What if there's literally a one in a billion chance that if one doesn't at least make an honest effort to simply have Faith, then one will go to hell, LITERALLY for forever. I mean like, take 10 to the hundredth power years, and multiply that by a billion centuries. After that amount of time, God comes to you and says, so how do you like the VERY FIRST INCREDIBLY SMALL FRACTION OF A PART of burning in hell for forever? Some people feel that the idea of hell is absurd. My answer to that is - - - given what we're talking about here - - - SO WHAT!?

Which god should I have faith in to make sure I don't go to his/her bad place? How do I know which is the right one? I don't think I have enough time in a day to make sure I'm doing all the right things for all of the god ideas out there.

Can I not just be a decent human being, and on the off-chance that there is an afterlife, be okay, on account of I'm a good person?

It would take a lot of time out of all of our days if we had to pay proper respects and do all the right things for each and every deity out there to avoid going to his or her respective potential Bad Place.

Originally Posted by Ghost_Tracker

I also feel that the very complexity of the universe is something that indicates that there's a God. Things just simply don't have to be as complex as they are - time, space, physics, math, all of that stuff. Again, there's just no reason for it to be the way it is. There's literally an infinite number of other possibilities.

That's just it - "things just simply don't have to be" full stop. They don't have to be created or designed. They don't have to be NOT created or NOT designed, either - we just haven't got any empirical evidence for that yet. I'm keeping my eyes peeled, though.

Originally Posted by Ghost_Tracker

On top of all of that, I feel that there IS physical evidence that there is a God. An example is the (claimed) fact that the corpses of people who have been named as Saints have been dug up and examined (probably when being moved from one location to another, etc.) They don't decay, sometimes. That's FREAKY, and for me it's a "waker-upper." Another is these "out-of-body" experiences that people claim to have. I realize it can be argued that they're just dreams, but given the above, I don't see enough reason to question it.

Lots of bodies don't decay sometimes. It depends on where and how they were buried - the chemical makeup of the soil, the type of tomb. They've pulled ancient bodies out of bogs in Scotland that didn't decay much, due to the chemicals and such in the bog perserving them. All sorts of things factor into that.

And out of body experiences may also just be the workings of the human brain, which is a fascinating and wonderful device we should all be pleased to have.

Originally Posted by Ghost_Tracker

Here's another idea that's occurred to me - - -

Maybe it's just this simple:

Is there a God?
Why WOULDN'T there be???

Well, and why WOULD there be? It goes both ways, no?

Originally Posted by Ghost_Tracker

I feel that a bit of Faith is a healthy thing, and if I'm wrong, it just simply doesn't matter.

One other thing I'd like to point out - - - I feel that many people have certain misconceptions about the Catholic Church, and where they are in their thinking. (Not to open a whole can of worms, there...) MUCH of what people think is Dogma in the Catholic Church is actually just considered to be metaphor. The Adam and Eve story is a perfect example of that. Check out the New American Bible sometime, it flat-out says that the Adam and Eve story is an allegory and as much as admits that evolution probably happened.

These people aren't as stupid and uneducated as some people think they are, in fact, no where near. (i.m.o. again, of course.) And there's actually a Vatican Observatory - has been for centuries. I saw the astrophysicist/priest who runs it interviewed the other day, he's VERY bright and openly advocates, without any problems from higher-ups at the Vatican, the possibility of life on other planets and the big bang theory.

Anyway, when you put that all together, it boils down to a big huge yes for me, that there's probably a God.

I was raised very strict Catholic - doilies on the head and mass 3 times a week and CCD for years and all of that - and here I agree with you. There are many misconceptions about what the Catholic Church believes. JPII was fine with evolution, for example, though Ratzinger seems to be messing that up a bit now.

In fact, it was a priest when I was about 10 that taught me how to view the Bible with a critical eye and read it for the beautiful stories, metaphors and life lessons it contains, rather than taking it as literal truth. Thanks, Father Palko! You were awesome.

[Zombie]

Originally Posted by fringed n fab

Well GT at least you believe in something. I always say I'd rather die believing in something, than nothing at all once the lights go out. To me that'd be one sad lonely death. I wouldn't want to be one of those people who don't even go through the whole afterlife tunnel experience and white light, and instead just horseshoe right back through the Left Door into another Godless creation again (if thats so*) There are good souls and there are dark souls for a reason. More on that later but I've also heard and read from many people who've "visited" and described this sad, dark, lonely place, called The Holding Place, others may call it Purgatory, where theres nothing but sad, lonely depressed, LOST souls walking around all over with the blankest of expressions in their eyes and faces, and that is where ones are supposed to go until they recognize God or accept him and they'll remain there until they do so. I wouldn't want to be in such a place when I die. I want to go out at least believing in something than nothing at all in my heart. But that's just me and my beliefs. Everyone's free to believe what they will. This isn't church and I didn't start this thread to preach to anyone. Just stating what (I) believe.

Well, that's creepy. And also presumptuous.

Everyone's free to believe what they will, except if they don't believe in something you deem okay, they're sad and lonely and depressed, and the only way they get out of it is to "recognize God or accept him"?

I believe in lots of things. Myself, for example. I'm awesome. My kids - they're amazing little people that will grow up into amazing big people if I play my cards right. My family, both biological and the one I've created for myself - they're awesome, too.

I believe in my friends. The healing power of chocolate. The beauty of nature. The wonder I experience when I look up at the sky, whether it's day or night, and imagine all the possibilities it presents us.

I believe in a good education, and that reading is fundamental - if you can read, you can do anything. I believe everyone out there that you run into has something to teach you, whether it's positive or negative, so you should probably listen up.

I believe in all sorts of things. As an atheist, though, I just believe in one less god than you do (unless you're polytheist, in which case I believe in several less gods than you do, but you get my drift, I'm sure).

[fringed n fab]

I wasn't condemning anyone, just stating my beliefs on things. Those are (mine) as I stressed. That's all. You seem to want to argue with me with every post when I never wanted to. I posted my thoughts and views and you've made yours clear as well. Can't you just leave things at that? So you're Athiest. You've made that point clear. I believe there's a God and a spiritual world and made that clear. Let's just leave it at that. This thread wasn't meant to be controversial or preachy. I just wanted to hear what others might have to say. I'm sure there are many on here who are just leaving the subject alone rather than discuss it. And that's fine too.

[Zombie]

Originally Posted by fringed n fab

I wasn't condemning anyone, just stating my beliefs on things. Those are (mine) as I stressed. That's all. You seem to want to argue with me with every post when I never wanted to. I posted my thoughts and views and you've made yours clear as well. Can't you just leave things at that? So you're Athiest. You've made that point clear. I believe there's a God and a spiritual world and made that clear. Let's just leave it at that. This thread wasn't meant to be controversial or preachy. I just wanted to hear what others might have to say. I'm sure there are many on here who are just leaving the subject alone rather than discuss it. And that's fine too.

Well, you wanted to hear what others might have to say, so I am telling you what I have to say. I'm genuinely curious as to why you feel or think or believe the way you do. That's why I ask you questions, like, "How has Sylvia Browne proven herself to be real?" and present you with several reasons why I think she has done the exact opposite. That's me making what information I have available to me likewise available to you, so you can do the same. That's how you have a discussion, I thought.

I'm not arguing with you in any disrespectful manner. I'm not badgering you or calling you names or saying I think you are silly or anything like that. I'm just responding to what you (and others) have posted - if you didn't want responses, why post? Or, if you do want responses, just not the kind I have - perhaps you should just say that?

If you do want to show me why you think/feel/believe what you do, I am still curious. I like to hear different viewpoints, gives me a chance to see if I haven't examined something as thoroughly as I should have or if I'm missing something.

You take care now,
Annie

[fringed n fab]

Annie, anyone is free to post their thoughts and views on all of this stuff. I just never wanted it to be some controversial thread or become preachy to anyone. I just found some of this stuff interesting and wanted to share it. We are all free to feel and believe what we want and what feels right in our own heart and minds. I'm not shying away from any questions, I just don't want to put anyone through the mill why they believe the way they do. That includes you. To me it's enough that we state our opinion on it and leave things at that. People like Sylvia Browne and Char are not to be worshipped like some cult and they will tell you that. They are not God, just simply delivering messages from some higher realm and if you believe them, great, if not, that's fine too. I just find the things they have to say quite fascinating and that's all. Everyone has the right to believe in this stuff or not. But as far as spirituality and ghosts and all that, yes I do believe in them because like others, I've seen them, felt them, had weird "dreams" where I've been in another place that I know was not from this dimension, where I knew my body was still lying there on that bed. Some sort of astral projection maybe where we're known to leave our bodies in sleep all the time and wander around? I don't know. Maybe you have to "go through" some of this to understand any of it. But I know what I saw and felt. I don't take any drugs. I never have. So you can't blame it on that. And neither has my mother when she's had her encounters before with flying dishes coming out of no where. Maybe some people have to witness this stuff and go through it to ever understand it. Maybe it has to happen to you. But never begrudge the ones it has happened to.

[Zombie]

^^^^^

Well, see, I can get behind that. And I didn't think the thread was getting controversial or preachy, so I'm sorry if I made you feel that way.

Also, I admire your chutzpah (and your boots, if that's you in your sig pic).

I have experienced "odd" things before. One of my friends is someone that does believe in ghosts, spirits, the supernatural, etc, though her beliefs as regards deities, I've never been able to nail down exactly - and we've been together when some of those "odd" things happened.

The difference, though, I think, is in how we're wired. While she may experience the "odd" thing and automatically deduce it was somehow supernatural or spiritual or ghost-y or whatever, I'm busy trying to rule out every possible natural explanation I can before I go, "Well, huh."

And I have run into a few "Well, huh" moments where I cannot find a natural explanation to explain what happened. But to me, that doesn't mean there's no natural explanation at all - it just means maybe I'm not looking at it right or I can't see it yet. Maybe I will figure it out later, and maybe I won't. Either is fine with me.

I have long thought that perhaps some of us are wired to have the ability to believe in these things and some of us are not. I went through many years of my life thinking I was somehow broken or defective, because try as I might when I was at Mass or in CCD or youth group, I just didn't "get it." I thought everyone around me was somehow hearing that "small, still voice" and I was broken because I couldn't hear it, too. I thought God was mad at me. I couldn't figure out why everyone else could do this, but I couldn't - after all, I'm smart, I understand what they're telling me I need to do, I'm doing it...but it's not working. And I tried. Oh man, did I try. I tried everything I knew how. Heck, I can still recite the entire Mass in Latin off the top of my head. I was freakin' determined.

But no matter what I did, it didn't work. So I gave up on being Catholic and tried other things. I visited various Protestant churches, I hurt my head trying to talk to the Mormons that came to the door (apologies to any Mormons on the board, but the guys y'all sent to my neck of the woods had a hard time stringing a full sentence together ), I questioned the Jehovah's Witnesses relentlessly, I spent a summer living with pagans of various stripes, I pestered the Jewish folk I knew as much as they would tolerate (which wasn't much, fair enough, I don't blame 'em). I read everything I could get my hands on, and talked to everyone I could. And by the end of it all, I just realized that none of it was going to work for me. The only things I was truly able to examine and say, "Yes! I see that! I understand!" were things based on empirical evidence, things based in science.

So that's why, when someone says, "This person is psychic, see?" I say, "Well...why? They also said this and this and they were wrong, so couldn't it be this or this?" It's not because I want to pick a fight or rain on anyone's parade, it's because when I hear something like that, I want to hear everything about that - I want to know as much about it as I can. Perhaps, if I knew everything you know, I would also think it is so, but even if what you have to say is not enough to sway my opinion, I will at least know I did what I could to develop an informed opinion on the subject.

[louielouie2000]

I've had several things happen to me that I personally place meaning to... that others may discount. I'll share my experiences, and everyone can come to their own conclusions.

I've been in two serious car accidents in my life. The first occurred when I was 18. It was early in the morning, and I was on my way to my summer job: I worked as an assistant ranger at a State Park out in the middle of nowhere. I was on a deserted back highway on a big sweeping curve when I noticed 2 little girls walking their puppy by the road. Suddenly the dog darted out in front of me, and I swerved around it... not wanting to cream the poor girl's puppy right in front of them. This made my car start fish-tailing violently... and I lost control of the car, it flew into a ditch, and flipped over. I unlatched my seatbelt and crawled out of the car unharmed. Before I knew it, there was a woman standing beside me who said she was a nurse. She handed me a bottle of water, and her cell phone and told me to call my parents, which I did. I don't know that I ever looked up at her.

Fast forward 3 years. I'd just finished a 12 hour job of putting a new water pump in my DeLorean car at my parents house. I needed to have the job finished so I could be back at college for classes the next morning. I finally got the car finished up well into the night, packed my things in it, and hit the road for the 2.5 hour trek back to school. In the middle of nowhere I saw a giant old Cadillac suddenly run off the road, and I instantly knew the car would overcompensate and come straight for me... which it did. All I had time to do was floor it, and swerve my car before the Cadillac careened into me. My car spun around 200 degrees, and came to a rest. I tried frantically to get out... but my door was jammed shut. I hopped over to the passenger side... also jammed. About that time I noticed my driver's window didn't have any glass left in it, so I crawled out unharmed. Again, almost immediately, I had a woman standing beside me and telling me she was a nurse. She handed me a bottle of water, and told me to call my parents. I did as I was told... and again, didn't look up at her face.

I didn't put two and two together until I was in the hospital being checked out after the second wreck. Every time I think about the accidents now I get chills. I've never been a religious person at all... but this was a flashing billboard for me. People can interpret my story how they will, but I know the conclusion I've drawn from my first hand experience.

This is a picture of me with my DeLorean the day after my accident. My Mother has always sworn that all the orbs around me were angels. The orbs are in both pictures. I didn't even pay attention to them until my Mother pointed them out. I'm not sure I'm an orb believer... but here are the pictures anyway:

[fringed n fab]

Originally Posted by Zombie

^^^^^

Well, see, I can get behind that. And I didn't think the thread was getting controversial or preachy, so I'm sorry if I made you feel that way.

Also, I admire your chutzpah (and your boots, if that's you in your sig pic).

I have experienced "odd" things before. One of my friends is someone that does believe in ghosts, spirits, the supernatural, etc, though her beliefs as regards deities, I've never been able to nail down exactly - and we've been together when some of those "odd" things happened.

The difference, though, I think, is in how we're wired. While she may experience the "odd" thing and automatically deduce it was somehow supernatural or spiritual or ghost-y or whatever, I'm busy trying to rule out every possible natural explanation I can before I go, "Well, huh."

And I have run into a few "Well, huh" moments where I cannot find a natural explanation to explain what happened. But to me, that doesn't mean there's no natural explanation at all - it just means maybe I'm not looking at it right or I can't see it yet. Maybe I will figure it out later, and maybe I won't. Either is fine with me.

I have long thought that perhaps some of us are wired to have the ability to believe in these things and some of us are not. I went through many years of my life thinking I was somehow broken or defective, because try as I might when I was at Mass or in CCD or youth group, I just didn't "get it." I thought everyone around me was somehow hearing that "small, still voice" and I was broken because I couldn't hear it, too. I thought God was mad at me. I couldn't figure out why everyone else could do this, but I couldn't - after all, I'm smart, I understand what they're telling me I need to do, I'm doing it...but it's not working. And I tried. Oh man, did I try. I tried everything I knew how. Heck, I can still recite the entire Mass in Latin off the top of my head. I was freakin' determined.

But no matter what I did, it didn't work. So I gave up on being Catholic and tried other things. I visited various Protestant churches, I hurt my head trying to talk to the Mormons that came to the door (apologies to any Mormons on the board, but the guys y'all sent to my neck of the woods had a hard time stringing a full sentence together ), I questioned the Jehovah's Witnesses relentlessly, I spent a summer living with pagans of various stripes, I pestered the Jewish folk I knew as much as they would tolerate (which wasn't much, fair enough, I don't blame 'em). I read everything I could get my hands on, and talked to everyone I could. And by the end of it all, I just realized that none of it was going to work for me. The only things I was truly able to examine and say, "Yes! I see that! I understand!" were things based on empirical evidence, things based in science.

So that's why, when someone says, "This person is psychic, see?" I say, "Well...why? They also said this and this and they were wrong, so couldn't it be this or this?" It's not because I want to pick a fight or rain on anyone's parade, it's because when I hear something like that, I want to hear everything about that - I want to know as much about it as I can. Perhaps, if I knew everything you know, I would also think it is so, but even if what you have to say is not enough to sway my opinion, I will at least know I did what I could to develop an informed opinion on the subject.

Thanks for the compliment on my boots. In regards to your post, maybe there isn't an answer to everything. Maybe there are some things we're not supposed to know in this lifetime. Maybe there isn't always a quick answer to every little thing. I find it fascinating how we're all (supposed) to be 30 years of age in Heaven and even up there we wont even know why? (if that's supposed to be) Maybe God only knows why he wants us to be that. If it's so, I simply feel it's just some special number he wants us all to be because there's no "time" in Heaven and we don't ever age. From my understanding we'll be beautiful bodied spirits like most of us have always been taught. Now don't argue with me on this! LOL I'm only explaining my opinions on it.