the definitive 200 albums

[carrie721]

Originally Posted by irishgrl

personally, I dont appreciate the Gangsta attitude toward women. sorry

that's different from saying you think they're stupid because of their dialect - that's racist thought, IMO, and that's what i take issue with.

[irishgrl]

Originally Posted by carrie721

that's different from saying you think they're stupid because of their dialect - that's racist thought, IMO, and that's what i take issue with.

well, I didnt say that but you gotta admit, it certainly isnt ROCKET SCIENCE

seriously, think about it, that sort of language barrier is REAL, those folks are not going to be impressing any fortune 500 companies with their intellect if they cant enunciate or speak proper grammar.....and thats not racist at all. If you want to interact with the business community (for example) you have to present a business-like attitude.

[carrie721]

Originally Posted by irishgrl

well, I didnt say that but you gotta admit, it certainly isnt ROCKET SCIENCE

seriously, think about it, that sort of language barrier is REAL, those folks are not going to be impressing any fortune 500 companies with their intellect if they cant enunciate or speak proper grammar.....and thats not racist at all. If you want to interact with the business community (for example) you have to present a business-like attitude.

well, the difference in grammar between standard english and black vernacular english isn't a case of laziness - that was my original point. BVE is quite different from standard english, and it's consistent in those differences. there's a shared vocabulary, but the grammatical differences are so great it really could be considered its own language. you wouldn't call someone who spoke spanish or french but not english stupid, right? they are speaking proper grammar within their own dialect, their dialect just isn't standard english.

actually this is a topic i think you'd have a lot of interest in, as a fan of the underdog. inner-city kids are not being given the tools to properly learn standard english, which, as you said, puts them at a disadvantage. it's a shame because there are solutions out there.

[GypsySorcerer]

Originally Posted by carrie721

well, the difference in grammar between standard english and black vernacular english isn't a case of laziness - that was my original point. BVE is quite different from standard english, and it's consistent in those differences. there's a shared vocabulary, but the grammatical differences are so great it really could be considered its own language. you wouldn't call someone who spoke spanish or french but not english stupid, right? they are speaking proper grammar within their own dialect, their dialect just isn't standard english.

Precisely. BVE is a valid dialect. "Why can't they talk right?" is simply an underhanded way of saying, "Why can't they talk white?"

[carrie721]

Originally Posted by GypsySorcerer

Precisely. BVE is a valid dialect. "Why can't they talk right?" is simply an underhanded way of saying, "Why can't they talk white?"

thank you! amen!

[irishgrl]

Originally Posted by carrie721

well, the difference in grammar between standard english and black vernacular english isn't a case of laziness - that was my original point. BVE is quite different from standard english, and it's consistent in those differences. there's a shared vocabulary, but the grammatical differences are so great it really could be considered its own language. you wouldn't call someone who spoke spanish or french but not english stupid, right? they are speaking proper grammar within their own dialect, their dialect just isn't standard english.

actually this is a topic i think you'd have a lot of interest in, as a fan of the underdog. inner-city kids are not being given the tools to properly learn standard english, which, as you said, puts them at a disadvantage. it's a shame because there are solutions out there.

do you have some links? I'd be happy to investigate

And, for better or worse, the better your grammar/diction/presentation, the farther you're going to go. There are plenty of inner city kids that chose to rise above the vernacular and assimilate a more "educated" persona. You dont hear any doctors or lawyers speaking ebonics. sorry.

[carrie721]

Originally Posted by irishgrl

do you have some links? I'd be happy to investigate

And, for better or worse, the better your grammar/diction/presentation, the farther you're going to go. There are plenty of inner city kids that chose to rise above the vernacular and assimilate a more "educated" persona. You dont hear any doctors or lawyers speaking ebonics. sorry.

not handy . i used to but i lost my bookmarks a while back. all i have on hand is a paper i wrote about it, i can send that to you

and i'm not disagreeing with you. i'm not saying there aren't inner city kids who haven't risen to the challenge, but when you look at test scores, it's easy to see those kids are being ignored.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by irishgrl

. . . those folks are not going to be impressing any fortune 500 companies with their intellect if they cant enunciate or speak proper grammar . . . .

Actually, three of the larger F500's seemingly love that dialect as it makes them hendreds of millions if not billions a year

[irishgrl]

I dont know if Ebonics qualifies as a legit dialect or not under this definition:

4 How do linguists decide these questions?

The language vs. dialect question is difficult even within linguistics. Linguists usually rely on a criterion called mutual intelligibility to decide the question in scientific terms: if A and B speak different language systems, but can understand each other when each is speaking their characteristic language system, they are speaking dialects of the same language. If they cannot, they are speaking different languages. http://cla.calpoly.edu/~jrubba/Ebonics.html

[irishgrl]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

Actually, three of the larger F500's seemingly love that dialect as it makes them hendreds of millions if not billions a year

are you referring to the music business? I'd hardly qualify the money they get from Rap music an endorsement of Ebonics......

[irishgrl]

Originally Posted by carrie721

not handy . i used to but i lost my bookmarks a while back. all i have on hand is a paper i wrote about it, i can send that to you

and i'm not disagreeing with you. i'm not saying there aren't inner city kids who haven't risen to the challenge, but when you look at test scores, it's easy to see those kids are being ignored.

that may very well be true, but IMO, their use of Ebonics may hamper them somewhat since the test language isnt in Ebonics....

I think that when a certain language (such as English) is considered the PRIMARY language of a nation, whether or not you speak it at home, it behooves you, if you expect to rise above, to pay attention to what will get you there, be it language or whatever. I'd say the same thing about all the Hispanics that cry about forms being in Spanish or Hmongs that want forms in Hmong etc.....in my line of work, especially in CA, we've accomodated foreigners to the point that its costing taxpayers BILLIONS to make it possible for non-english speakers to apply for public assistance. Personally, it makes me sick/

[GypsySorcerer]

Originally Posted by irishgrl

that may very well be true, but IMO, their use of Ebonics may hamper them somewhat since the test language isnt in Ebonics....

Test language is white, middle class speak. There's tons of articles out there on the bias in standardized tests.

[carrie721]

Originally Posted by irishgrl

that may very well be true, but IMO, their use of Ebonics may hamper them somewhat since the test language isnt in Ebonics....

that's my point though ... these kids need to be taught standard english using ESL techniques so they're working with the same tools as the kids living in more economically prosperous areas. for the kids, use of ebonics isn't a choice, it's their native tongue.

I think that when a certain language (such as English) is considered the PRIMARY language of a nation, whether or not you speak it at home, it behooves you, if you expect to rise above, to pay attention to what will get you there, be it language or whatever. I'd say the same thing about all the Hispanics that cry about forms being in Spanish or Hmongs that want forms in Hmong etc.....in my line of work, especially in CA, we've accomodated foreigners to the point that its costing taxpayers BILLIONS to make it possible for non-english speakers to apply for public assistance. Personally, it makes me sick/

it certainly is wise to learn the language of the country you're living in, you'll get no argument from me there.

[irishgrl]

Originally Posted by GypsySorcerer

Test language is white, middle class speak. There's tons of articles out there on the bias in standardized tests.

BUT: the workaday world is WHITE MIDDLE CLASS. Thats not a BIAS, thats a REALITY. if you want to succed, you CONFORM to what brings you success.

there's no inherent bias there, only established practice. Are you expecting the business world to "dumb down?" Success is HARD WORK. it isnt handed to you, you EARN it. Its too freakin expensive to cater to every dialect in this melting pot of a country. SORRY. We have a recognized language and, again, it behooves everyone who wants to get AHEAD to LEARN it. Thats not bias, thats not racism, thats just REALITY. If I was Hungarian or Lithuanian or African, I'd still need to learn ENGLISH if I expected to prosper in America.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by irishgrl

are you referring to the music business? I'd hardly qualify the money they get from Rap music an endorsement of Ebonics......

Yes, the white guys in the music business want the rap stars, they make the money.