Enough of their BS

[madformac]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

^^^

I think Iran has a history of not cooperating and wanting power. Sadly, I fear the only they will listen to is power.

I mean look at Iraq. That is all it would listen to. Prior to the current invasion, Iraq was a nightmare, albeit US made, that the UN tried to control, but SH would have none of it and SH failed to cooperate and live up to the peace agreement in the early 90's, which gave W the excuse he needed to scheme to invade.

Note -- I am not justifying the invasion of Iraq. I am just using it as an example of what I see to be the mindset of that part of the world.

On edit - I think this is why the West has a hard time having any patience with the Middle East.

Does anybody know for sure Iran want nuclear weapons capabilities? They still insist its for energy purposes. Its only western "inteligence" that state otherwise. If it is for nuclear weapons then they are doing it out of fear. Fear of being attacked and invaded for their natural resources by other countries. Its only since the invasion of Iraq they are running scared. Where do the US government go when they run low on oil?

If you felt intimidated by the school bully you would want to make sure you could defend yourself right? You don't see the USA and UK go marching into nuclear capable countires do you? Because they can't. The risks are too great.

The fact is there is nothing they can do now to stop Iran going nuclear so they cannot take a military approach. If they can't do it diplomatically then there is no option. Thats why Bush has been so quiet on the matter too.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by madformac

Does anybody know for sure Iran want nuclear weapons capabilities? They still insist its for energy purposes. Its only western "inteligence" that state otherwise. If it is for nuclear weapons then they are doing it out of fear. Fear of being attacked and invaded for their natural resources by other countries. Its only since the invasion of Iraq they are running scared. Where do the US government go when they run low on oil?

I cannot believe that people think Iran is developing a nuclear industry for any other reason. Moreover, once they have the weapon, it is too late to say "I told you so" So, they need to be stopped now. I mean Germany said for years that it was not redevloping its army and then it swore to peace and then all of a sudden it invaded Poland.

[Für Elise]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

I cannot believe that people think Iran is developing a nuclear industry for any other reason. Moreover, once they have the weapon, it is too late to say "I told you so" So, they need to be stopped now. I mean Germany said for years that it was not redevloping its army and then it swore to peace and then all of a sudden it invaded Poland.

yeah but america invaded there neighbour and threatened them but if america is sent that message then they are allowed to go and attack whoever they want. I would have preparing weapons too if I were iran

[madformac]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

^^^

I was talking about going in, getting the prisoners, and leaving. I was not saying an all out invasion a la Iraq should occur.

As for the US and the UK not being there. If they were not there, who would police Iran. Who would stop Iran from obtaining a nuclear weapon, which is their goal. Surely you do not think the UN will have any effect standing on its own.

on edit - and, i believe it has been proven that Iran is supplying the Iraqi militants with weapons and Iran funds terrorist groups in the Middle East. So, what they are not doing with their own army, they do in effect by paying someone else to do it

Its all power games. The US government supplied Iraq with the so called "weapons of mass destruction" in the eighties to fight Iran, Reagans (and Bush Snrs) enemy at the time.

Any incursion into Iran to get the prisoners would be considered an act of war. Which I'm sure would be countered with a wave of terrorist attacks in western countries. The UK Iranian community is far larger for instance than the Iraqi community. 99% of them are good people. But the 1% is far larger than the 1% that are responsible for previous terrorist attacks.

So what if Iran gets nuclear capabilities? They won't use them, regardless of what people may think. Its purely to gain international respect and position, albeit in way of blackmail. Nuclear capable countries enjoy good economic growth. China, India, Pakistan are all now recieving more business than previously enjoyed. Having big toys gets you noticed.

I agree that its very likely Iran are causing a lot of the problems in Iraq. But think about it. If forces are tied up fighting battles in Iraq then they are less likely to turn their attentions on the neighbours. If the UK and US pull out of Iraq then its highly likely Iran will become more diplomatic.

[madformac]

Originally Posted by Für Elise

yeah but america invaded there neighbour and threatened them but if america is sent that message then they are allowed to go and attack whoever they want. I would have preparing weapons too if I were iran

Precisely, which is what Iran are doing right now. They have the resources and the capability now. Its purely a defense strategy.

They are looking after their own interests, its not about Iran attacking the world with nuclear weapons. Theres too much media hype on Iran as bad guys. CNN and friends have just been hyping things up for their own gain.

[strandinthewind]

I cannot believe you all are actually advocating allowing Iran to have a nuclear weapon Hell, let's give one to Syria too.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by madformac

. . . CNN and friends have just been hyping things up for their own gain.

This is an aside, but it always amazes me that the rest of the world views CNN as the warmongering right, when in America, they are villified by the right.

[madformac]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

I cannot believe you all are actually advocating allowing Iran to have a nuclear weapon Hell, let's give one to Syria too.

I'm not advocating it, merely staing it is an inevitability than cannot be stopped. Its not something the west can control. The US and UK governments are worldwide control freaks lately and it bothers them they can't do anything about it.

I'm also not stating that having nuclear weapons means you don't go to war. America has proved that many times since the 50's.

It always puzzles me that America seems to be involved in so many wars when they have never been invaded, certainly not in the 20th century. War of course is great for the economy. It creates many jobs. I think a major part of the boom and rapid growth of the United States over the last century has been down to war related economics. This time however the government has got its sums wrong and Iraq has screwed the economy. Look forward to increased taxes!

[madformac]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

This is an aside, but it always amazes me that the rest of the world views CNN as the warmongering right, when in America, they are villified by the right.

Its not just CNN of course. They are just the big fish. Its all business to hype and sell stories. Good for viewing figures. Nothing like fear and lack of understanding to get the masses tuning in. The BBC has to be more reserved over here due to the fact every UK home has to pay them about $260 a year. Its all publicly funded. Thats why they are less hype but also not as sharp or immediate with reporting either. Good and bad points with either approach.

[Für Elise]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

This is an aside, but it always amazes me that the rest of the world views CNN as the warmongering right, when in America, they are villified by the right.

isn't it obvious cause america is more right wing than most of us it might seem left over there I don't know

[madformac]

If Iran was invaded they would probably win it too. If we can't sort out Afganistan or Iraq what chance have we in Iran? Iran is a massive country. A war could take 25-30 years. its strategically impossible without nuclear confrontation and that is the last thing anybody needs. Ahmadinejad is rattling his sabre with the comments. He's recently said he has no plans to attack Israel too. Its all for publicity, he says things to get attention. Its all a stalemate. All this back and forth over the captured UK servicemen is posturing. It will get sorted out in a week or so.

[strandinthewind]

LOL - I know ao many Americans who go to the BBC to get the news. I guess perspective is everything!

[estranged4life]

For some reason all this talk lately about Iran & Iraq makes me wonder when "Team America:World Police" will make the world a safer place

[skcin]

Originally Posted by madformac

Its all power games. The US government supplied Iraq with the so called "weapons of mass destruction" in the eighties to fight Iran, Reagans (and Bush Snrs) enemy at the time.

Any incursion into Iran to get the prisoners would be considered an act of war. Which I'm sure would be countered with a wave of terrorist attacks in western countries. The UK Iranian community is far larger for instance than the Iraqi community. 99% of them are good people. But the 1% is far larger than the 1% that are responsible for previous terrorist attacks.

So what if Iran gets nuclear capabilities? They won't use them, regardless of what people may think. Its purely to gain international respect and position, albeit in way of blackmail. Nuclear capable countries enjoy good economic growth. China, India, Pakistan are all now recieving more business than previously enjoyed. Having big toys gets you noticed.
I agree that its very likely Iran are causing a lot of the problems in Iraq. But think about it. If forces are tied up fighting battles in Iraq then they are less likely to turn their attentions on the neighbours. If the UK and US pull out of Iraq then its highly likely Iran will become more diplomatic.

It really IS a game, and that scares the **** out of me. Human lives should not be pawns in games, I'm sorry.

And I totally disagree with you about Iran not using the weapons if they get them. If they feel that just having them isn't getting their message across, they'll send a stronger message by using them. IMO.

[madformac]

Originally Posted by skcin

It really IS a game, and that scares the **** out of me. Human lives should not be pawns in games, I'm sorry.

And I totally disagree with you about Iran not using the weapons if they get them. If they feel that just having them isn't getting their message across, they'll send a stronger message by using them. IMO.

Why do you feel like that Paula? How do you know. Their conflicts have been localised and no threat to the western world. Iraq were no threat. Why is it all of a sudden attention has turned to Iran? Why not a few years back?

America have used nuclear weapons before. How do you know they won't again? The UK are the only nation to have ever used a nuclear submarine in anger. Could they again? sure..

Most of the problem lies in education. And religous tolerance from both sides. Iran could use weapons of mass destruction but it would be counter productive. To have them is not. But its hidden in all the stories. The intelligence communities will just tell you the stuff I am. Its all normal posturing. ten years back everybody was worried about China having nuclear weapons. "Don't trust the Chinese, they will launch an attack on America".. Well now China is the fastest growing economy in the world. And America takes them seriously.