Question about The Music

[Ghost_Tracker]

*knock-knock!* (pops head in part-way - covers up t-shirt with jacket so that only "-ve Stevie Nic-" is visible - ) -

All-righty uhmm, I had a question for you guys. This is actually a question that should probably be on That Other Page but, I had the impression that a lot of people in here might be able to answer it. Several times in here, people have analyzed Lindsey's music - the "chords," etc. and seemed to have quite a lot of knowledge about those types of things. So I'd like to "direct your attention" to a thread I just started on the Stevie board -

What is it about Stevie's music that makes it so special, good, etc. -
in terms of the chords she uses, how she uses them, etc. I was hoping that if anyone has time, they could pick one or two examples, as well as giving a "general explanation." THANKS!

P.S. - the thread is called "The technical side of Stevie's music -"

[David]

Originally Posted by Ghost_Tracker

What is it about Stevie's music that makes it so special, good, etc. - in terms of the chords she uses, how she uses them, etc. I was hoping that if anyone has time, they could pick one or two examples, as well as giving a "general explanation." THANKS!

P.S. - the thread is called "The technical side of Stevie's music -"

In technical terms, there isn't anything about Stevie's music that makes it special. Obviously, I'm talking about what Stevie brings to the table rather than what her bands & producers do (although I personally don't think there's anything special about what they do, either--the best that most of them do is to just stay out of her way vocally).

Someone might argue that something like "Dreams" is constructed in an interesting way because it ostensibly has no I chord, or argue that it's an interesting example in Lydian mode, &c. But it would be a mistake in ascribing that level of planning & construction (which is minimal to begin with) to what Stevie actually did, which was essentially to just keep going back & forth between two of the chords she is familiar with (through repetition) & build a vocal on top of it. The kernel musical interest of "Dreams"--as well as of any of her other material, to the extent that it exists--is in the more plastic aspects of the track (which she probably had a hand in but which weren't her own initial ideas).

It's her lyrics, her looks & her singing that thrill fans & leave their mark, not her chords. Her chords are ordinary rock & roll chords.

[Jyqm]

Originally Posted by David

In technical terms, there isn't anything about Stevie's music that makes it special. Obviously, I'm talking about what Stevie brings to the table rather than what her bands & producers do (although I personally don't think there's anything special about what they do, either--the best that most of them do is to just stay out of her way vocally).

Someone might argue that something like "Dreams" is constructed in an interesting way because it ostensibly has no I chord, or argue that it's an interesting example in Lydian mode, &c. But it would be a mistake in ascribing that level of planning & construction (which is minimal to begin with) to what Stevie actually did, which was essentially to just keep going back & forth between two of the chords she is familiar with (through repetition) & build a vocal on top of it. The kernel musical interest of "Dreams"--as well as of any of her other material, to the extent that it exists--is in the more plastic aspects of the track (which she probably had a hand in but which weren't her own initial ideas).

It's her lyrics, her looks & her singing that thrill fans & leave their mark, not her chords. Her chords are ordinary rock & roll chords.

Thanks, David! I wanted to say all of that but knew that you would be able to say it far better.

Bottom line: Nobody listens to Stevie Nicks because they're looking for insteresting musical structures.

[mylittledemon]

Originally Posted by Ghost_Tracker

What is it about Stevie's music that makes it so special, good, etc. -
in terms of the chords she uses, how she uses them, etc. I was hoping that if anyone has time, they could pick one or two examples, as well as giving a "general explanation." THANKS!

There isn't anything about the music itself, coming from my point of view. The arrangements, musically, are left to be desired. It's really just Stevie's voice/persona/lyrics.

[Forshorn]

Don't jump all over me, please, it's just a question.

Stevie is a good lyricist, I think. That is, not complex or literate, but with a very clear vision of her Anne Rice-like world: mythic and romantic, full of old houses, haunting femmes fatales... evocative nature imagery. Her vision is part of what defines FM, I think, and the other writers play along with it (e.g. Lindsey in "Big Love" and C. McVie in "Mystified").

But is she much of a musician? Most reports say no. So what about the surprising guitar break which switches key in the middle and really makes "Sara" special? Isn't that writing? Does Stevie even write the melodies? When she plays "Dreams" on the piano in the Rumors documentary it doesn't have the melody we know from the recorded version.

Something tells me Lindsey's pop genius really made her songs. Maybe he should've gotten credit.

[David]

Originally Posted by Forshorn

Don't jump all over me, please, it's just a question.

If anybody jumps all over you, just report her to the moderators.

I know this issue has been brought up before (the issue of songwriting credit for Lindsey). Here's how I feel about it: I don't think Lindsey should have got songwriting credit with Stevie on all those songs. The song credit traditionally goes to the person who wrote the lyrics & the person who wrote the basic chords & melody (sometimes it's the same person). So Stevie rightfully takes her songwriting credit for that. What Lindsey does is in principle no different either from what hundreds of other producers & arrangers do or from what hundreds of other bands do (which is to flesh out the songwriter's demo). Sure, he does (or used to do) a good job of it, but he isn't "songwriting" in the strictest sense of the term when he does so. He is arranging a track out of a song, & for that he has been given the credit--at least since the days of the Tusk album.

So what about the surprising guitar break which switches key in the middle and really makes "Sara" special? Isn't that writing?

I don't know what you're referring to here. Sorry.

Does Stevie even write the melodies? When she plays "Dreams" on the piano in the Rumors documentary it doesn't have the melody we know from the recorded version.

I think Stevie writes the melody line by singing it--that's writing it. It may alter over the course of an album's production, but I think it's generally hers.

Something tells me Lindsey's pop genius really made her songs.

I think his skills at conceptualizing & executing made her songs TRACKS, which to me is a more specific way of characterizing their working relationship. I keep telling everyone: A track isn't a song. A song isn't a track. A track is the sonic expression of the song in a specific form, fixed in time & space. A song is somewhere between form & formless, as evidenced by the fact that you can sit down at the piano & play the song Dreams any time you want, but you cannot sit down at a piano & play the TRACK Dreams. (For that, obviously, you need a recording of the track & playback equipment.)

I hope you'll take my comments in the spirit in which they're offered--as discussion, as exchange of ideas--& not as browbeating or bullying.

[Forshorn]

Thanks, David, for your (extremely civil) response.

The part in Sara I am referring to is the guitar break after the "undoing the laces" lyrics, with three ascending chords in a relative minor 7th?? (Not sure.) It is a surprsing musical turn that, for me, takes the song to another level. Of course, Stevie deserves loads of credit for her intriguing lyrics.

I guess my assumption is that Lindsey writes all the chord structures, or rewrites Stevie's original chords. In a band like, for instance, the Smiths, in which one player writes chord structures and the other writes lyrics and composes the vocal melody over these chords, both get songwriting credit. As a (dabbling) songwriter myself (as I'm sure most of us here are), I tend to think great chord structures make the song, even if the lyricist improvises the vocal melody over them.

However, you may be saying that Stevie does write the chords, or a rough draft of the chords. As I understand it, a producer really works with the arrangement, mix, emphases, effects etc., but not the songwriting proper.

Can anyone shed more light on the writing process for songs like "Dreams" and "Sara"?

[mylittledemon]

Originally Posted by Forshorn

Thanks, David, for your (extremely civil) response.

Everytime I see you make a post, in my mind, I say "scrotum" after your name. I know, I'm sick.

[David]

Originally Posted by Forshorn

However, you may be saying that Stevie does write the chords, or a rough draft of the chords. Can anyone shed more light on the writing process for songs like "Dreams" and "Sara"?

Yes, I give Stevie the credit for what you call the chord structure to Stevie herself--on those songs she gets songwriting credit for. My reasoning is based on the umpteen hours of taped playing Stevie does at her piano, singing her songs. Have you ever heard Stevie play & sing Sara at the piano? There are a couple of recordings of that from the late 1970s & early 1980s. The chord progression Stevie is playing on these tapes is exactly the same as the chord progression of the TRACK Sara on the Tusk album.

That's why in general I maintain that Stevie writes her chords. Also, the other members of the band have said many times that Stevie puts the chords to her songs. Lindsey or Chris will typically say something like, "She doesn't know very many chords, & she uses the same chords over & over again, but they seem to work for her particular stuff."

[ragandbone]

Originally Posted by David

Yes, I give Stevie the credit for what you call the chord structure to Stevie herself--on those songs she gets songwriting credit for. My reasoning is based on the umpteen hours of taped playing Stevie does at her piano, singing her songs. Have you ever heard Stevie play & sing Sara at the piano? There are a couple of recordings of that from the late 1970s & early 1980s. The chord progression Stevie is playing on these tapes is exactly the same as the chord progression of the TRACK Sara on the Tusk album.

Aha! I have often wondered if many of the Stevie demos, especially the really rough ones were covertly released, rather than stolen, after that "Sara" lawsuit put her authorship in question.
Also, I wonder if she developed her method of crafting (I know some will question the use of this word) her songs from her work with Los Angeles Songwriters Showcase (LASS), since I have seen her name and Lindsey's listed as having been involved with this association.

[BTFLCHLD]

Originally Posted by Ghost_Tracker

*knock-knock!*
(pops head in part-way - covers up t-shirt with jacket so that only "-ve Stevie Nic-" is visible - )

hey...whos that cutie!?

[trackaghost]

Originally Posted by Forshorn

But is she much of a musician? Most reports say no. So what about the surprising guitar break which switches key in the middle and really makes "Sara" special? Isn't that writing? Does Stevie even write the melodies? When she plays "Dreams" on the piano in the Rumors documentary it doesn't have the melody we know from the recorded version.

Something tells me Lindsey's pop genius really made her songs. Maybe he should've gotten credit.

I thought you might find this past thread interesting:

http://ledge.fleetwoodmac.net/showthread.php?t=15178

And I agree with David. What Lindsey does is no more than what any decent producer would do. The basic song structures and melody (not just the lyrics!) are there, therefore she should get songwriting credit.

[Forshorn]

Thanks for the responses and link. I guess this settles the "Did Lindsey co-write Sara?" question. I guess I don't need to exaggerate LB's accomplishments. They are formidable enough.

[dreamongypsydkm]

Originally Posted by Forshorn

Thanks for the responses and link. I guess this settles the "Did Lindsey co-write Sara?" question. I guess I don't need to exaggerate LB's accomplishments. They are formidable enough.

No in this case it was just Tom Moncrieff being short-changed, she was sharing the discourtesy around.

[trackaghost]

Originally Posted by dreamongypsydkm

No in this case it was just Tom Moncrieff being short-changed, she was sharing the discourtesy around.

Lindsey or Tom Moncrieff don't get songwriting credits on Sara, just as Jon Brion is only credited for arranging Extraordinary Machine and Waltz for Fiona Apple, despite the fact those songs reek off his work and sound. I think being a producer and arranger of a song is separate thing to being the composer.
If they're not, then Deep Dish also deserve a songwriting credit for their remix of Dreams or Mike Chapman deserves a credit for turning Heart Of Glass from a reggae song to a disco tune or jazz musicians deserve song credits for completely reworking old standards!
Also Tom Moncrieff got a credit on Gold And Braid, while plenty of other Stevie songs have co-writing credits, so I don't see why she would deny Tom his co-writing credit for Sara if he deserved one. Just my opinion of course.