You create the best album - Page 3

Jyqm · #31 04-20-2006, 03:25 PM

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Originally Posted by SortaSavageLike

I can listen to VBOFM all the way through to Hold Me. After that, I skip everything except World Turning and Sisters of the Moon. Christine's songs after that are dull AC, Seven Wonders annoys me, No Questions Asked is annoying, bratty, and muddy (I swear, I've almost fallen asleep listening to it), Family Man is well, Family Man, and Paper Doll is catchy but instantly disposable. It's like they just pulled songs out of a hat. The first time I listened to Tusk I was like, "woah, why didn't they put more of these songs on that "best of" set?

I will forever defend the honor of "Family Man," which, setting aside the contents of the lyrics, contains some absolutely beautiful guitar work, plus the vocal effects are an important step in the great Lindsey-plays-with-voice-manipulation saga.

If "Family Man" and "When I See You Again" are the bastard children of Tango In The Night, I will gladly be their loving foster parent.

But yes, a couple more Tusk songs would certainly be in order on this set. Where's "Brown Eyes"? Where's "The Ledge"?

HomerMcvie · #32 04-20-2006, 03:26 PM

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Originally Posted by Jyqm

The only thing I object to is when people pass off other incarnations of the bands as though they were unimportant or somehow lesser versions of Fleetwood Mac. (Or when they imply that "casual fans" have zero interest in other incarnations of the band. There are plenty of people who are "casual fans" of the Green years.)

On this point, we couldn't possibly agree more. And THAT's the main reason people think I'm a Chiffon hater. Because that seems to be the prevalent attitude among ALOT of them. I personally think the Bob Welch years to be the best of FM. The transition the band makes through those five albums is amazing. I PRAY that someday these five will see remastering.
If it weren't for Bob Welch, Old What's Her Name would still be cleaning houses.

cliffdweller · #33 04-20-2006, 03:26 PM

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Originally Posted by Jyqm

But we weren't talking about what most people might want, we were talking about whether or not the box set is a good overview of the band's history

Yeah, I know. I guess my comment was more of an aside than anything. I think some fans get really hung up on pre-Rumours lineup F.M. and don't really like to face the fact that there are many more fans out there that don't listen to all those other incarnations. I think The Chain boxed set reflects that, I mean, how successful would a F.M. boxed set be that focused 50/50 on Pre and Post Rumours era lineups? I know I would be skipping many discs and it would be a waste of money for me. I think the simple fact of the matter is that most people want mainly Rumours era lineup, so one disc of pre is probably enough for the general listener.

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The Chain tries lazily to have it both ways on this front - juxtaposing hits with a handful of unreleased tracks and barely-different alternate versions of released songs - and fails miserably.

It may not be the preferred smattering of F.M.'s catalogue, but I don't think it "fails miserably." That's a bit overly dramatic.

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That aside, the claim that people don't want pre-1975 Mac simply isn't true, at least insofar as it pertains to the Peter Green era of the band.

I didn't say that NOONE wanted pre-1975 era F.M., I made the assumption (and it is only an assumption based on their popularity) that there are more F.M. fans (barring Chilli of course) who are mostly Rumours line-up fans than anything else. See all my qualifiers? I qualify like crazy!

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If you don't like Peter Green, you don't like Peter Green.

Oh but I DO like Peter Green! It's all those others, that revolving door of guitarists sans Green that are milquetoast to me. I never said I don't like Peter Green, make no mistake about that.

Jyqm · #34 04-20-2006, 03:44 PM

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Originally Posted by cliffdweller

Yeah, I know. I guess my comment was more of an aside than anything. I think some fans get really hung up on pre-Rumours lineup F.M. and don't really like to face the fact that there are many more fans out there that don't listen to all those other incarnations. I think The Chain boxed set reflects that, I mean, how successful would a F.M. boxed set be that focused 50/50 on Pre and Post Rumours era lineups? I know I would be skipping many discs and it would be a waste of money for me. I think the simple fact of the matter is that most people want mainly Rumours era lineup, so one disc of pre is probably enough for the general listener.

I don't think there are any pre-1975 Mac fans who don't realize and accept that the 1975-1987 line-up of the band was monstrously successful and that that is the incarnation of the band with which most people are familiar and the majority of people like. If we harp about those earlier incarnations, it's only because non-fans often strongly imply that there are so fewer fans of the ealrier eras as to render them almost meaningless and barely worth most people's time or attention. This simply isn't true.

As for how a 50/50 box set would fare, who knows. You would skip half the songs on it, and plenty of Green-era enthusiasts would skip the other half. Hence my suggestion of selling discs both individually and as a set, if they ever wanted to do it again.

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It may not be the preferred smattering of F.M.'s catalogue, but I don't think it "fails miserably." That's a bit overly dramatic.

You sure? It sure seems like a pretty awful set to me. It's really the sequencing that makes it so terrible in my eyes. Sequencing on a one- or two-disc hits compilation isn't necessarily that important, but when you get into the realm of three- or four- or more-disc box sets, it's almost everything. When you're offering that much music, you need to give some sense of coherence or narrative, either chronologically or aesthetically. The Chain does neither and ends up being a big messy mish-mash. I could put my iPod on shuffle and come up with something better.

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Oh but I DO like Peter Green! It's all those others, that revolving door of guitarists sans Green that are milquetoast to me. I never said I don't like Peter Green, make no mistake about that.

Putting aside the idea of Jeremy Spencer or Bob Weston as a "milquetoast" guitarists (that'd make a great new thread, though): over half of the songs on disc 4 of The Chain are Peter Green numbers, and you said you've listened to it twice in however long you've owned it. How much can you really like him?

cliffdweller · #35 04-20-2006, 03:45 PM

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Originally Posted by HomerMcvie

On this point, we couldn't possibly agree more. And THAT's the main reason people think I'm a Chiffon hater. Because that seems to be the prevalent attitude among ALOT of them.

Why does this come down to Stevie? I'm talking about the WHOLE Rumours era line-up including: John McVie, Mick Fleetwood, Lindsey Buckingham, Christine McVie, and Stevie Nicks. I'm not really happy about F.M. going on without Chris, I feel like the Rumours line-up is missing a crucial member, so it's not just Stevie that makes this particular lineup what it is to me. I prefer these five together over any other incarnation of Fleetwood Mac. Even though Stevie is my favorite, it's not just Stevie alone that makes this line-up the best in MY eyes.

cliffdweller · #36 04-20-2006, 03:50 PM

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Originally Posted by Jyqm

over half of the songs on disc 4 of The Chain are Peter Green numbers, and you said you've listened to it twice in however long you've owned it. How much can you really like him?

I do like him, I don't LOOOOOVE him, see the difference? My c.d. collection takes up an entire room of my house, point being I have other things I enjoy listening to more. I guess that's as simple as I can put it

Jyqm · #37 04-20-2006, 03:50 PM

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Originally Posted by cliffdweller

Why does this come down to Stevie? I'm talking about the WHOLE Rumours era line-up including: John McVie, Mick Fleetwood, Lindsey Buckingham, Christine McVie, and Stevie Nicks. I'm not really happy about F.M. going on without Chris, I feel like the Rumours line-up is missing a crucial member, so it's not just Stevie that makes this particular lineup what it is to me. I prefer these five together over any other incarnation of Fleetwood Mac. It's not just Stevie alone.

I think Homer's point was that it's generally the folks who identify themselves as "Stevie fans" who denigrate other eras of the band the most. Likely because there's more of them. It doesn't seem to come up as often in the attitudes of folks who identify themselves as "Lindsey fans." Possibly because there's fewer of them. And obviously it has no bearing at all on people who identify themselves as "Christine fans." She produced some of her very best stuff on those pre-1975 albums.

Jyqm · #38 04-20-2006, 03:55 PM

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Originally Posted by cliffdweller

I do like him, I don't LOOOOOVE him, see the difference? My c.d. collection takes up an entire room of my house, point being I have other things I enjoy listening to more. I guess that's as simple as I can put it

I mean, I don't want to argue silly semantics with you or anything, but there plenty of artists that I like but am not absolutely gaga over and I've listened to their music far more than twice. If I've got an album that I've only ever listened to twice, it probably didn't do very much for me. But again, this is just semantics, it's not about who's a bigger fan or who gets to call themselves a fan or whatever silly crap like that. I'm glad you appreciate him, and I hope you delve into more of his stuff sometimes if you have a chance, as it's really a wealth of riches.

cliffdweller · #39 04-20-2006, 03:56 PM

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Originally Posted by Jyqm

And obviously it has no bearing at all on people who identify themselves as "Christine fans." She produced some of her very best stuff on those pre-1975 albums.

And from what I've heard of it, I'd agree. I like Chris, I think she's a great vocalist, songwriter, and pianist/keyboard player. I just don't "connect" to much of the pre-1975 stuff, it isn't magic for me like the post '75 stuff.

cliffdweller · #40 04-20-2006, 04:02 PM

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Originally Posted by Jyqm

I mean, I don't want to argue silly semantics with you or anything, but there plenty of artists that I like but am not absolutely gaga over and I've listened to their music far more than twice.

So I'm ADD, so sue me?

I can't explain why I've only listened to something twice, that takes a deeper psychological analysis of myself than I'm willing to undergo at this point. Let's just say that Peter Green era Fleetwood Mac is cool and worth listening to, and let there be an end to it!

Johnny Stew · #41 04-20-2006, 04:34 PM

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Originally Posted by HomerMcvie

On this point, we couldn't possibly agree more. And THAT's the main reason people think I'm a Chiffon hater. Because that seems to be the prevalent attitude among ALOT of them.

I honestly think that's largely a misconception. I know that a lot of my "Stevie-loving" friends hold Bob Welch in very high regard.

Obviously there are some with the "if Stevie's not in the band, the band sucks" attitude... but I think the same viewpoint could easily be attributed to some of Christine's fans, Lindsey's fans, and even Peter Green's fans, in regards to those three.

Johnny Stew · #42 04-20-2006, 04:56 PM

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Originally Posted by Jyqm

(Really, I think the only thing keeping that set from being very good is the "What was the point?" inclusion of the last four songs: "As Long As you Follow," "No Questions Asked," "Skies The Limit" and "Paper Doll." They simply don't fit with the rest of what's on there, and they seem ingloriously tacked on to the end merely to fill space. Including stuff like "Fireflies" or "Eyes Of The World" or "I Know I'm Not Wrong" or "Isn't It Midnight" would have made a lot more aesthetic sense.)

I assume they probably included "As Long As You Follow" (one of my all-time favorite Christine songs) and "No Questions Asked" so that 'Greatest Hits' could be allowed to go out of print.
I was happy they included "Paper Doll" (among other reasons, because it includes not only the 'Rumours' era lineup, but Burnette and Vito, too), but if they wanted a song to represent 'Behind The Mask,' I would have rather they had included "Save Me" instead of "Skies The Limit." Given that the former was a Top 40 hit, I imagine more people would have recognized it, too.

Jyqm · #43 04-20-2006, 05:19 PM

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Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

I assume they probably included "As Long As You Follow" (one of my all-time favorite Christine songs) and "No Questions Asked" so that 'Greatest Hits' could be allowed to go out of print.

I'm certain that's why they included them, but that's still a pretty daft reason, I think. If they were concerned about these two songs going out of print, they should have scheduled them to be put onto an expanded reissue of Tango In The Night, where they would be much more at home. Sticking both of them - along with "Skies The Limit" and "Paper Doll" - on the end of The Very Best Of just dilutes and weakens the concept of the compilation. If you're doing a Rumours line-up best-of, do a Rumours line-up best-of, simple as that.