Brokeback Mountain Review and Response

[Brwn_eyes0511]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

I think you listening to Mariah balances that out though.

ohhh good! I could never give up Sara...or Amy (who btw...has quite a few gay fans believe it or not...I'm a fanclub member and know some).

[dissention]

Originally Posted by Brwn_eyes0511

or Amy (who btw...has quite a few gay fans believe it or not).

You're one, who are the other two?

[Serrart]

Originally Posted by dissention

Fine with me. I prefer his performance over those of the actors you listed.

You prefer him even to David Strathairn? A movie doesn't make an actor, IMO.

Romy

[The Tower]

Originally Posted by dissention

You're one, who are the other two?

Clay Aiken and Kenny Chesney

[jannieC]

I have a feeling this movie will never come to my town. I'll have to rent it on DVD, I'm afraid.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by Serrart

You prefer him even to David Strathairn? A movie doesn't make an actor, IMO.

Romy

I never said it did. However, an Oscar should celebrate particular performances, not be doled out as some sort of achievement award just because a certain actor hasn't gotten one in the past. Stack up Ledger's performance next to those of the other actors you mentioned and Ledger gave the best one. If he's nominated, he should win it. Just my opinion.

[sparky]

Originally Posted by Serrart

He's very good but it wouldn't be right if the Oscar went to him instead of David Strathairn, Philip Seymour Hoffman or even Joaquin Phoenix. It would have written "politically correct" all over.

Romy

I haven't seen Strathairn or Phoenix, but Hoffman was in my estimation a Rich Little impersonation, though I think he is a great actor. I will reserve judgement till I see the other actors, but from Heath's previous work and his interviews, he transformed absolutely.

[sparky]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

I'd actually like to chat with you sometime about the "gay community" and more of your thoughts on it.
When I came out... somewhat "late in life," I guess, at 28... some well-intentioned gay friends started to tell me how I should style my hair, what clothes I should start buying, what kind of music I should be listening to, even what kind of cologne and UNDERWEAR I should wear. The conformity amazed me. What happened to individuality? I always thought that the gay community celebrated being unique, but I quickly realized I was wrong.

The friggin Gay Gestapo.

But maybe it's a "safety in numbers" kind of thing, and helps some guys feel like they "fit in."
Myself, I'd rather not fit in, if it means having to give up who I am... and being true to myself was the whole reason I came out in the first place!

I understand an element of all of this. People have felt like outsiders for so long that they are thrilled to finally find a club that wants them. So a lifetime of being excluded is reversed, and there is a celebration about being included in a group. I get it. But the group is like all other groups. It is just as exclusive, if not more so, and the history of being kicked out and stepped on tends to create a certain kind of relentless bitchiness that can only erupt from the psychic depths of people who have been truly and deeply hurt.
Ever crossed a drag queen ?

I don't dismiss all forms gay gatherings. I have my pals, and I hit a bar now and then, but the organized stuff is not for me. I have a ton of theories about this but I won't start cause I won't shut up. Suffice it to say, as I have said before, that I think that "gay culture" is emotionally and spiritually bankrupt and has been for years. A brief, occasional visit to it is all I can stand.

[Rickypt]

Originally Posted by sparky

And frankly, I didn't see a lot of gay people at the shows I have been to. Not surprising. I don't think most gay men would know real love between two men if it hit them in the face like a club. They see this and think "Whatever." Sad state of affairs. We have been fed garbage for so long we don't know the real thing when it is served to us.

It was nothing but gay men at the showing I went to, and it is all the gay men I know have been talking about since December 9th.

I do disagree with you about gay men and love. I don't think gay men find, know, and express love any differently than other people. I've witnessed amazing examples of real love between gay men, and experienced it myself.

[dissention]

I know you adore him, my darling, but I do question his intelligence. Which could make for some interesting fun if he is dumb, nonetheless.

http://www.contactmusic.com/new/xmlf...0to%20ancestor

Movie star JAKE GYLLENHAAL was inspired to find fame and fortune, by his beetle-collecting great-great grandfather.

The BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN actor grew up hearing legends about his ancestry and is proud to reveal greatness runs in their family.

He says, "That's what I was told. He was a collector and cataloguer of beetles. We're interesting people. He was knighted by the King of Sweden and the Gyllenhaals even have their own coat of arms over there."

[sparky]

Originally Posted by Rickypt

It was nothing but gay men at the showing I went to, and it is all the gay men I know have been talking about since December 9th.

I do disagree with you about gay men and love. I don't think gay men find, know, and express love any differently than other people. I've witnessed amazing examples of real love between gay men, and experienced it myself.

We all have different experiences. No doubt about that. I am not going to sit here and try and say your experience is fictional. I have read and heard some things that conflict with your experience about the movie - but we live different lives and have different roads. For the record, I think every gay guy in the world should see this movie. Actually, most everyone should.

We'll have to disagree about the love thing, again based on experience. I think that what we call "gay culture" in particular, tends to poison the experience of love and color the very nature of relationships with a plethora of baggage that distorts and dilutes the nature of connection. These include but are not limited to sex, drugs, dating habits, and the influence of growing up gay in a world that isn't designed to build us into men when we are not hetero.

On about every level...finding, knowing and expressing, I think that the common experience of love between gay men actually is different, by and large. Of course I cannot comment on the exact quality of "knowing" love for anyone but myself. However, there is a strange commodification of relationships that goes on in the gay world that is an extreme form of what people might call the modern version of love, and it seems to be dictated by fashion. It is completely colored by porn. It completely colored by gay media. It completely colored by trends in the gay ghettos. This year it's adopting babies, last year it was commitment ceremonies, the year before it was lawyers drawing up contracts, the year before it was buying real estate together...so on and so forth. Does the nature of the feelings change - impossible to tell. I can say with a fair amount of certainty though that the way that gay men relate to each other has been influenced by the culture of "being gay". There is a certain freedom about monogamy. There is the endless and preposterous top/bottom stupidity - don't get me started on THAT particular form of hetero-aping, power based, masculinity hangup, role playing Freudian nightmares. There is also the very real problem of having to define the nature of relationships without any reliable form of a societal role model. And toss in the extreme body fascism that dominates every part of gay culture. Seen a gay rag lately ? The ads for skin stripping, pec implants, viagra, hair treatments, penis enlargements, butt augmentation, unprintable butt surgeries, teeth bleaching, and above all, substance abuse treament - it is staggering. The Jerry Springer crowd has nothing on the organized urban gay culture. It is a disaster.

Gay men do express love differently in a relationship. And it is a clear result of the societal structure. Traditional marriage is supported by a civil partnership and usually a religious binding. And children. Married couples stay together under their commitments to the law, to the church, to each other, to their children, and to their extended family. They also have the support of all of those institutions. A husband and wife show their love for each other with respect to those structures. By taking care of the kids, by strengthening the family unit, by attending church together, interacting in the community as a unit, etc, etc. These activities strengthen the love and are the things that bind them together when they may not even want to be together anymore.

That is what we lack by not having the right to marry. We can talk all we want about trying to recreate these systems on our own, but those means of expressing love are not going to happen on the same playing field and with the same support. So, no, we don't get to express love in all the same ways as other people. We can do it physically, emotionally, and personally. But not societally, and not with the same tools.

Have I seen love between gay men ? Sure. Not enough. Not lasting. Not based on the right things. I won't say it doesn't happen. I will say that it is rarer, and that gay men don't frequently don't have the tools, the experience, or the wherewithal to make it happen. Some of it societal, and some of it people's own fault.

I do not fault all gay men for the mess I describe. The "gay culture" is not even an embryo in terms of historical perspective. But currently it is in a state of shambles. It wasn't always so. So many people are completely irresponsible though, and shockingly self indulgent. That is where the root of the problem lies at this point. In spite of some valiant efforts on the part of a sane and extremely patient few. You can lead a whore to water but you can't make her choose it over booze, go to a therapist, get her off meth, or stop her from being a whore.

Didn't I mention once before in this thread not to get me started ?

[sparky]

Originally Posted by dissention

I know you adore him, my darling, but I do question his intelligence. Which could make for some interesting fun if he is dumb, nonetheless.

I'd never claim he is a genuis. He is merely a pup - what, 26 ? And for God's sake he is an ACTOR.
I only assert that he is magentically attractive and a pretty decent performer.
Probably smart in ten years.

[Rickypt]

Originally Posted by sparky

Actually, most everyone should.

On this, we agree! I also plan to see the movie again. My reaction to it was so completely different from the overwhelming majority that I think it deserves a second look.

And I'm not sure I could take the time to put as thoughtful a response to your post as it deserves, but I've read it and understand where you're coming from.

I share your views about urban gay "culture" to an extent, but I've come to realize that this is just a sliver of the overall gay "community". It just gets the most attention. Strip it away, and I've found the most incredible experiences of true love and commitment. My experience with the AIDS epidemic alone has shown this to me. It's the love demonstrated in the absence of societal support that amazes me.

I think that's why BB Mountain didn't move me as much as other people. I feel like I've already witnessed and been the part of so many experiences of true love between too men.

[The Tower]

Originally Posted by sparky

We'll have to disagree about the love thing, again based on experience. I think that what we call "gay culture" in particular, tends to poison the experience of love and color the very nature of relationships with a plethora of baggage that distorts and dilutes the nature of connection. These include but are not limited to sex, drugs, dating habits,....

These aspects of culture are not limited to the gay community.

.... and the influence of growing up gay in a world that isn't designed to build us into men when we are not hetero.

This part sucks for gays- however, hets aren't exactly getting high grades on this particular aspect of growing up.

However, there is a strange commodification of relationships that goes on in the gay world that is an extreme form of what people might call the modern version of love, and it seems to be dictated by fashion.

Only in the smallest of shallow circles, which I don't think truly represents the gay community. If you are saying that circuit boys and club twinks are the definition of the "gay world" or "gay culture", then this might be true. However, I believe the majority of gays are not part of this subset.

It is completely colored by porn.

I think anything involving men, straight or gay, is colored by porn. It's an aspect of being male, not being gay.

It completely colored by gay media. It completely colored by trends in the gay ghettos.

Only if you subscribe to it.

This year it's adopting babies, last year it was commitment ceremonies, the year before it was lawyers drawing up contracts, the year before it was buying real estate together...so on and so forth.

I don't know any gay men who have done the committment thing or adopted babies. I know a LOT of lesbians who have done all that, but no men.

I can say with a fair amount of certainty though that the way that gay men relate to each other has been influenced by the culture of "being gay".

Why wouldn't it? Hets have exactly the same syndrome. There is a billion dollar industry out there that caters strictly to the concept of wedding ceremonies. A women at my job is planning her wedding and she's dropping $100,000.00 on the cost of an event that is going to occur for ten hours. I don't see why gays wouldn't be influenced by their sexuality.

There is the endless and preposterous top/bottom stupidity - don't get me started on THAT particular form of hetero-aping, power based, masculinity hangup, role playing Freudian nightmares.

Not everyone looks at the top/bottom thing as a representation of top = man / bottom = woman. Some people just like what they like. I've never had any kind of role associated with my sexuality in all of the relationships that I've had.

There is also the very real problem of having to define the nature of relationships without any reliable form of a societal role model.

Who needs a role model to define a relationship? My relationship is defined by the two people who are in it, not by what others do. The choices I make are based on consent and compromise, not some set of rules or defined standards.

And toss in the extreme body fascism that dominates every part of gay culture. Seen a gay rag lately ? The ads for skin stripping, pec implants, viagra, hair treatments, penis enlargements, butt augmentation, unprintable butt surgeries, teeth bleaching, and above all, substance abuse treament - it is staggering.

Again, all of these things are hardly exclusive to the gay community. While there are certainly sections of the gay populace that are part of these trends I think the vast majority could give a rats ass about. I oughta know, I used to work for a doctor that performed penis enlargements in the 90's.

The Jerry Springer crowd has nothing on the organized urban gay culture. It is a disaster.

Part of it is a disaster. Again, if you are defining gay culture as circuit/club twinks then you're probably right.

That is what we lack by not having the right to marry. We can talk all we want about trying to recreate these systems on our own, but those means of expressing love are not going to happen on the same playing field and with the same support. So, no, we don't get to express love in all the same ways as other people. We can do it physically, emotionally, and personally. But not societally, and not with the same tools.

And the conservative movement wants to keep it this way so that gays can never gain the same acceptance they have. That is their fear.

Have I seen love between gay men ? Sure. Not enough. Not lasting. Not based on the right things. I won't say it doesn't happen. I will say that it is rarer, and that gay men don't frequently don't have the tools, the experience, or the wherewithal to make it happen. Some of it societal, and some of it people's own fault.

To tell you the truth, I have seen a lot more non-existence of "love" in straight culture than in gay culture. So many straight people get married for reasons other than love- it was extremely prevalent in the past, not as much in current times, though.

But currently it is in a state of shambles. It wasn't always so.

I don't think that the "gay culture" was ever any better or worse than is now. For every tweaked out Tina freak today there was a coked out sex obsessed Sleep Around Sue in the 70's. It's all perspective.

So many people are completely irresponsible though, and shockingly self indulgent. That is where the root of the problem lies at this point. In spite of some valiant efforts on the part of a sane and extremely patient few. You can lead a whore to water but you can't make her choose it over booze, go to a therapist, get her off meth, or stop her from being a whore.

Yes, however, whores exist in every facet of society- not just gay society.

Didn't I mention once before in this thread not to get me started ?

Too late!

[Serrart]

Originally Posted by dissention

I never said it did. However, an Oscar should celebrate particular performances, not be doled out as some sort of achievement award just because a certain actor hasn't gotten one in the past. Stack up Ledger's performance next to those of the other actors you mentioned and Ledger gave the best one. If he's nominated, he should win it. Just my opinion.

Heath Ledger is a great contender this year, he's very intense and moving and if he won, good for him, it would be another award to a great movie I'd like to see win as best picture, for the best direction, and for best supporting actress to Michelle Williams.
Among actors I just think Strathairn, my favourite, did an awesome job working on substraction (something that in Hollywood is very rare), and being able to represent not only a character but a world. Hoffmann and Phoenix instead built two very solid and nuanced perfomances, more complex than Ledger's. just my opinion.

Romy