fritz and destiny....

[melly]

I have just been listening to some Fritz LIVE!!!, a couple of mp3s, and a question occurred. Fritz sound really good to me... quirky and original... not so MOR as Fleetwood Mac often are.

QUESTION: If Lindsey and Stevie had stayed with Fritz, and had never joined Mick, etc, would they FRITZ have become huge, and FM stayed a UK blues group? When you listen to the Fritz songs, you can hear Stevie doin' her thing... I think she/they would have gotten hugely popular even without the Mac swooping in with their fancy cadillacs and weekly paycheques. Maybe Stevie would have gotten famous slower... not gotten into the coke etc... and had more hits if she had more control over things (ie not having to compete for album space with Christine).

What do you think??

The fritz mp3s are at this site:

http://groups.msn.com/AngelsGypsysSa...downloads.msnw

[David]

Originally Posted by melly

I have just been listening to some Fritz LIVE!!!, a couple of mp3s, and a question occurred. Fritz sound really good to me... quirky and original... not so MOR as Fleetwood Mac often are. QUESTION: If Lindsey and Stevie had stayed with Fritz, and had never joined Mick, etc, would they FRITZ have become huge, and FM stayed a UK blues group?

Maybe, but that sure is an unusual reaction -- to call live Fritz quirky & original in relation to Fleetwood Mac. Fleetwood Mac was renowned for being quirky live, throughout virtually all of their incarnations (except the 1987-90 band -- there wasn't anything quirky about their performances).

When you listen to the Fritz songs, you can hear Stevie doin' her thing... I think she/they would have gotten hugely popular even without the Mac swooping in with their fancy cadillacs and weekly paycheques. Maybe Stevie would have gotten famous slower... not gotten into the coke etc... and had more hits if she had more control over things (ie not having to compete for album space with Christine).

It's debatable whether those are even Fritz songs. Everyone's relying on Maureen's word. Secondly, if Fritz had hit the big time, it just as easily could have been because of Javier & not Stevie or Lindsey, since Javier was writing the vast majority of the material & was really the boss of the band. He called the shots. If Fritz had stayed together & Javier had continued to control the musical direction of the band -- or even to increase his control -- it seems doubtful that Lindsey would have hung around. His interest in taking the reins in the recording studio was just about to blossom at that point.

[Jyqm]

Originally Posted by melly

QUESTION: If Lindsey and Stevie had stayed with Fritz, and had never joined Mick, etc, would they FRITZ have become huge, and FM stayed a UK blues group?

Kind of rewriting history a bit there, aren't you? Stevie and Lindsey had already left Fritz to become Buckingham Nicks two years before they joined Fleetwood Mac. And for their part, Fleetwood Mac had ceased to be a blues group well before Stevie and Lindsey joined, nor were they based in the UK anymore at that time.

[melly]

thanks for responding

i guess that answered the question.. it had just occurred to me that FM's biggest draw, at least as I see it, was Stevie (to a lot of people) and Lindsey also... without them, I wonder if FM would have been anywhere near as successful. I like Christine and clearly she has a great voice etc but she doesn't have the chemistry, i think. Stevie does. and at the same time, i wondered how things would have been different if S & L had stayed with Fritz, or just stayed as Buckingham Nicks. Would they have been so famous? or was it the combo? was it the relatively sudden fame with FM that sent Stevie in the direction of coke, and from that into Klonopin and Street Angel and so on... I guess it was?

I know FM weren't in the Uk, or so much blues anymore when they met Lindsey.. i have read Mick's wonderful book, you know. i worded it poorly, sorry.

It was a fairly confused question/thought to begin with, i doubt I am making it any clearer.

Yeh, I guess I am trying to rewrite history.

[Jyqm]

Originally Posted by melly

thanks for responding

i guess that answered the question.. it had just occurred to me that FM's biggest draw, at least as I see it, was Stevie (to a lot of people) and Lindsey also... without them, I wonder if FM would have been anywhere near as successful. I like Christine and clearly she has a great voice etc but she doesn't have the chemistry, i think. Stevie does. and at the same time, i wondered how things would have been different if S & L had stayed with Fritz, or just stayed as Buckingham Nicks. Would they have been so famous? or was it the combo? was it the relatively sudden fame with FM that sent Stevie in the direction of coke, and from that into Klonopin and Street Angel and so on... I guess it was?

This has been gone over many times in many Mac forums, but obviously it was the combination of "these five people" that inexplicably became commercial gold. Neither contingent likely would have been nearly as successful on their own. Stevie and Lindsey were going nowhere fast and had been dropped by their record label; it seems pretty clear that, barring a miracle, they were not suddenly going to become a big name act on their own. And Fleetwood Mac, meanwhile, were without a guitarist and down to one not-terribly-prolific songwriter. Of course, who knows, any of them could very well have released an album that sold even more than Rumours did; but it didn't work out that way, so we'll never know.

And I know Stevie fans like to think that it was just Stevie's sheer presence that suddenly made Fleetwood Mac so popular, but that just isn't the case. Remember, the first hit single off the 1975 album was "Over My Head." And "Say You Love Me" charted just as high as "Rhiannon" but was on the charts a week longer. Why didn't Chris' songs ever do that well before? Who knows. It's entirely possible that Fleetwood Mac's success after 1975 had nothing to do with who was in the band; they just happened to be making the kind of music that the record-buying public had a major hankering for at the time.

I don't know if it was the sudden fame that led Stevie toward cocaine, but it was certainly the sudden wealth, coupled with the fact that cocaine was just everywhere in the rock music industry in the late 70s.

[amber]

that was brilliant. I would only disagree a bit with one small point. I think that the people who went out and saw them live were influenced by Stevie's presence. Not all the people, obviously. But then also they were on TV, and I don't think you can deny that her charisma was very helpful, especially perhaps publicity wise, because who doesn't want to take a picture of a pretty girl, and see a pretty girl sing and dance?
I'm not sure how indicitive of popularity "having a song on top of the charts" is, but then I would say that their very next album in that incarnation, Dreams was the chart topper.

[Jyqm]

Originally Posted by amber

that was brilliant. I would only disagree a bit with one small point. I think that the people who went out and saw them live were influenced by Stevie's presence. Not all the people, obviously. But then also they were on TV, and I don't think you can deny that her charisma was very helpful, especially perhaps publicity wise, because who doesn't want to take a picture of a pretty girl, and see a pretty girl sing and dance?

That's absolutely true, and I don't mean to sound as though I'm saying Stevie played no role in the band becoming popular. Just that she wasn't the sole blinding ray of divine light who happened to bring those other four people along for her ride of fame and glory.

[amber]

Originally Posted by Jyqm

That's absolutely true, and I don't mean to sound as though I'm saying Stevie played no role in the band becoming popular. Just that she wasn't the sole blinding ray of divine light who happened to bring those other four people along for her ride of fame and glory.

Oh, yeah, no, I didn't think that.

[Ghost_Tracker]

I recently read something about the history of the Buckingham/Nicks
album - the producer (Dennis Dunstan, maybe, I dunno) told them
that he felt that they would have more opportunities as a duo and
that they really needed to become independent of the rest of the
band in order to really have a chance to explore their options.
It was considered to be a polite way of telling them,
"DUMP these guys, they have NO real talent and they're holding
you back."
Not to be mean but it seems to me that many successful stars in
this business are told the same thing, sooner or later. (WHAT was the
name of that guy who was in the original Beetles, before they made it
big? Yeah, I forgot too...)
By the way, I also read awhile back that before Stevie and Lindsey
started with Fleetwood Mac, they had to honor one more commitment -
a show in Birmingham, Alabama. Although basically no one knew that
they had joined FM (so, no "curiosity factor"), the show was sold out,
and the audience apparently LOVED them. Although they had been
struggling nationwide, in certain pockets such as Birmingham they were
VERY popular! So apparently they remember it as "The path not taken" -
a sign of what might have happened if they had taken another route.
So - yeah - they probably would have made it, at least for a time,
and with at least moderate success. Maybe William Shatner would be
on VH-1 talking about "One Hit Wonders" and mentioning B-N's big hit
"So Afraid" or "Frozen Love" or something! . . . .

[Ghost_Tracker]

Originally Posted by Jyqm

That's absolutely true, and I don't mean to sound as though I'm saying Stevie played no role in the band becoming popular. Just that she wasn't the sole blinding ray of divine light who happened to bring those other four people along for her ride of fame and glory.

Uhmmm, I'm probably gotta get slammed for this, and I just
love 'er ta death but -
Gypsy?
All Lindsey....
Almost 100%.
She's brilliant -
But Gypsy?
I know the words mean a lot to her and that she wrote them -
but the song itself?
Lindsey.

[Jyqm]

Originally Posted by Ghost_Tracker

(WHAT was the
name of that guy who was in the original Beetles, before they made it
big? Yeah, I forgot too...)

Stu Sutcliffe.? Or Pete Best? Both were i nthere at some point, I think.

But yeah man, good thing they hooked up with that powerhouse of talent Ringo. They would have been up **** creek without him...

[seekerj]

Originally Posted by melly

thanks for responding

i guess that answered the question.. it had just occurred to me that FM's biggest draw, at least as I see it, was Stevie (to a lot of people) and Lindsey also... without them, I wonder if FM would have been anywhere near as successful. I like Christine and clearly she has a great voice etc but she doesn't have the chemistry, i think. Stevie does. and at the same time, i wondered how things would have been different if S & L had stayed with Fritz, or just stayed as Buckingham Nicks. Would they have been so famous? or was it the combo? was it the relatively sudden fame with FM that sent Stevie in the direction of coke, and from that into Klonopin and Street Angel and so on... I guess it was?

I know FM weren't in the Uk, or so much blues anymore when they met Lindsey.. i have read Mick's wonderful book, you know. i worded it poorly, sorry.

It was a fairly confused question/thought to begin with, i doubt I am making it any clearer.

Yeh, I guess I am trying to rewrite history.

One other historical fact that seems to get blurred; Klonopin showed up before the recording of The Other Side Of The Mirror. For some reason, Klonopin seems to only be discussed as being there for Street Angel. Personally, I think the Klonopin influence is more obvious on TOSOTM than on Street Angel. Anyway, I just wanted to mention that.
- Jim

[Jyqm]

Originally Posted by seekerj

One other historical fact that seems to get blurred; Klonopin showed up before the recording of The Other Side Of The Mirror. For some reason, Klonopin seems to only be discussed as being there for Street Angel. Personally, I think the Klonopin influence is more obvious on TOSOTM than on Street Angel. Anyway, I just wanted to mention that.
- Jim

I think it's more associated with Street Angel just because it was immediately after recording that album that she "kicked the habit." She started taking it almost immediately after she stopped doing cocaine, though, right?

[snowman]

Originally Posted by Ghost_Tracker

Uhmmm, I'm probably gotta get slammed for this, and I just
love 'er ta death but -
Gypsy?
All Lindsey....
Almost 100%.
She's brilliant -
But Gypsy?
I know the words mean a lot to her and that she wrote them -
but the song itself?
Lindsey.

Stevie is a prolific song writer. But anyone's songs need talented producing and arranging to be a hit.

[JazmenFlowers]

Originally Posted by Jyqm

That's absolutely true, and I don't mean to sound as though I'm saying Stevie played no role in the band becoming popular. Just that she wasn't the sole blinding ray of divine light who happened to bring those other four people along for her ride of fame and glory.

like I want to listen to john, lindsey, mick and christine as FM...ehh, no thanks. You're right, imo, that they all played pivotal roles in success, but I think Stevie was the glue.