Stevie and Lindsey's Big Fight

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by glitter_fades

After working so hard at going to rehab his leaving was probably a shock to her and she reacted badly. I think she knows this because as soon as it was over and he left, she called him and asked him if he wanted her to quit too. She asked if he wanted to do Buckingham Nicks again.

I'm not really interested in the Stevie vs. Lindsey argument again, but I just wanted to comment on the above paragraph.
You've mentioned in about three (that I've noticed) posts now about Stevie calling Lindsey after he had left Fleetwood Mac, to ask if he wanted to do another Buckingham Nicks. I posted a reply last time you brought it up, but you may have missed it... the only quote that anyone can find from Lindsey about Stevie broaching the subject of a second Buckingham Nicks, is from an interview in Cream magazine conducted before that altercation and Lindsey leaving the band.

Just want to clear that up.

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Serrart

And people say there aren't gentlemen anymore.

Romy

Not that I wanna make this a lindsy haters thread, But one of my favorite Fleetwood Mac quotes of all time is where Cristine says that lindsy is the only person that shes ever acually slapped!!

[Johnny Stew]

By the way, I've never once read an interview with Lindsey where he said Stevie called him to ask if she should leave.
I've read a Nicks interview where she said she realized later that she probably should have left when he did, but I don't recall Lindsey ever saying she called him to ask if she should or that they had even discussed that subject back in 1987.

But... I'd love to read a direct quote, if anyone has one.

[glitter_fades]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

I'm not really interested in the Stevie vs. Lindsey argument again, but I just wanted to comment on the above paragraph.
You've mentioned in about three (that I've noticed) posts now about Stevie calling Lindsey after he had left Fleetwood Mac, to ask if he wanted to do another Buckingham Nicks. I posted a reply last time you brought it up, but you may have missed it... the only quote that anyone can find from Lindsey about Stevie broaching the subject of a second Buckingham Nicks, is from an intereview in Cream magazine conducted before that altercation and Lindsey leaving the band.

Just want to clear that up.

Like I've said before, you can cull up all the quotes you want from online sources. That doesn't change what I know. I don't recall that Cream thing. I'm not saying there is no article but that's not what I'm talking about. Stevie did call him after he quit. Why would she ask if he wanted her to leave too if he hadn't left yet? Cream is just one source. Just because it's the only thing you can find online doesn't mean that's accurate for when it happened or that it's all the info there ever was on that subject back when it occurred .

Oh, and as far as bringing up this subject before, that wasn't me. Other fans know this info so I'm not surprised somebody else brought it up. It wasn't me. I've confirmed knowing this but somebody else brought it up originally.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by glitter_fades

Like I've said before, you can cull up all the quotes you want from online sources. That doesn't change what I know. I don't recall that Cream thing. I'm not saying there is no article but that's not what I'm talking about. Stevie did call him after he quit. Why would she ask if he wanted her to leave too if he hadn't left yet? Cream is just one source. Just because it's the only thing you can find online doesn't mean that's accurate for when it happened or that it's all the info there ever was on that subject back when it occurred.

So, your argument boils down to... "direct quotes from the people actually involved mean nothing when I just know"?

Well, that's good enough for me then!

(By the way, I don't recall you ever broaching the subject until after Stephanie, I believe it was, mentioned that she recalled having read it. In fact, you asked once or twice why no one ever commented on Stephanie's recollection.)

[glitter_fades]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

By the way, I've never once read an interview with Lindsey where he said Stevie called him to ask if she should leave.
I've read a Nicks interview where she said she realized later that she probably should have left when he did, but I don't recall Lindsey ever saying she called him to ask if she should or that they had even discussed that subject back in 1987.

But... I'd love to read a direct quote, if anyone has one.

Sadly, the world did not begin with online archives, ya know. If you want to base everything you believe only on what you read online I can't keep arguing. Just because you can't dig up info on Mick and Stevie's affair before Mick's book, doesn't mean nobody knew about it before the book. Everybody knew. I knew. A lot of other fans knew. We also knew about Stevie having the you know what from her affair with Don Henley. That was also known before Henley blabbed in GQ. A lot of info is known around the fan base that is not readily available online.
What can I say? Believe what you want.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by glitter_fades

Sadly, the world did not begin with online archives, ya know. If you want to base everything you believe only on what you read online I can't keep arguing. Just because you can't dig up info on Mick and Stevie's affair before Mick's book, doesn't mean nobody knew about it before the book. Everybody knew. I knew. A lot of other fans knew. We also knew about Stevie having the you know what from her affair with Don Henley. That was also known before Henley blabbed in GQ. A lot of info is known around the fan base that is not readily available online.
What can I say? Believe what you want.

I've been a fan since 1985/86... many of the articles I've read over the years were from magazines I own or read at the library.
In fact, I have that issue of Cream magazine with Lindsey talking about Stevie calling him regarding a second Buckingham Nicks, sitting right here on my desk.

I don't apologize for requesting actual direct quotes from the band members before I "believe" something, instead of simply relying on the recollections of fans who gleaned their information from hearsay and speculation, and whose only rebuttal is that they "just know."

"Believe none of what you hear, and only half of what you see."

[David]

Originally Posted by GardenStateGirlie

Annnd once again, glitter hits the nail on the head. I agree that his leaving the band upset her a great deal and was more than likely the catalyst for this argument. IMO, she would have been the one to change his mind and then something must have set him off to change it again and take the final steps to leaving the band -- I wouldn't be surprised if it were her downward spiral at the time that aided his decision.

I think it was Stevie's downward spiral, Mick's downward spiral & John's downward spiral. It was a combination of all three. Despite the fact that Lindsey & Chris spoke happily about making the "Tango" album at the time, most fans had no idea it was so fractured & so horrendous until years later, but it apparently was. (When Lindsey told the audience at Tough on Toxics that making the album had been a "healing thing," WE BELIEVED HIM!) Mick was a royal jerk at Lindsey's house, John was probably uselessly drunk throughout his tenure at the Slope (Lindsey even recorded some of the bass parts for the album) & Stevie of course was incommunicado for most of those months, but when she did show up seemed to exude something that Lindsey & even the others didn't care for. Maybe out of her nervousness about how they would treat her, she acted diva-like as a defense mechanism.

I take Lindsey at his word that problems in the studio for HIM are compounded ten times for HIM, & that he never wanted to tour, but when the screws were put to him, he wasn't as strong about refusing as he hoped he could be.

I'm sure we've all been in situations where people who haven't been terribly nice to us are nevertheless approaching us to do them a favor, & we really wish they'd just go away. I know I have.

Actually, what Lindsey should have done was let the band bring in Jason Casaro or Nigel what's-his-name from Chic to produce the album, & then adamantly refused to tour.

By the way, Timothy White -- who was always fairly reliable & fairly good at setting the accurate tone -- wrote that piece on FM in Musician in 1989, & the atmosphere in Fleetwood Mac he describes that August 1987 was not an atmosphere that was empathetic to Lindsey Buckingham. In fact, the article opens with Stevie Nicks "spitting mad," & claiming that "If he tries to hang up this band at this point, he's in for a rude awakening." (I can't remember Stevie's quote so I paraphrase)

[darklinensuit]

Originally Posted by David

By the way, Timothy White -- who was always fairly reliable & fairly good at setting the accurate tone -- wrote that piece on FM in Musician in 1989, & the atmosphere in Fleetwood Mac he describes that August 1987 was not an atmosphere that was empathetic to Lindsey Buckingham. In fact, the article opens with Stevie Nicks "spitting mad," & claiming that "If he tries to hang up this band at this point, he's in for a rude awakening." (I can't remember Stevie's quote so I paraphrase)

I remember reading that in the Rock Lives book. I think she talks about this new song Whole Lotta Trouble. Wow, a lifetime ago.

- Jake

[gldstwmn]

Originally Posted by David

Actually, what Lindsey should have done was let the band bring in Jason Casaro or Nigel what's-his-name from Chic to produce

Nile Rodgers. He had just produced a string of hot records around that time including Bowie, INXS, Duran Duran, Madonna (Like A Virgin), Thompson Twins and Peter Gabriel. It would have been interesting to see what he could have done with the Mac or what was left of it at that point.

[GardenStateGirlie]

Originally Posted by David

Maybe out of her nervousness about how they would treat her, she acted diva-like as a defense mechanism.

I tend to agree with you on this. I recall the whole request for the trailer out front of Lindsey's house while they recorded (when she would show up) -- unfortunately, what she wouldn't know until much later, it really made her the outsider. I can just imagine Lindsey being at his wits end trying to piece it all together and feeling that once again, it's left on his shoulders. Of course, knowing Lindsey as we all do, he wouldn't want it any other way

[henryscutter]

Originally Posted by David

I think it was Stevie's downward spiral, Mick's downward spiral & John's downward spiral. It was a combination of all three. Despite the fact that Lindsey & Chris spoke happily about making the "Tango" album at the time, most fans had no idea it was so fractured & so horrendous until years later, but it apparently was. (When Lindsey told the audience at Tough on Toxics that making the album had been a "healing thing," WE BELIEVED HIM!) Mick was a royal jerk at Lindsey's house, John was probably uselessly drunk throughout his tenure at the Slope (Lindsey even recorded some of the bass parts for the album) & Stevie of course was incommunicado for most of those months, but when she did show up seemed to exude something that Lindsey & even the others didn't care for. Maybe out of her nervousness about how they would treat her, she acted diva-like as a defense mechanism.

I take Lindsey at his word that problems in the studio for HIM are compounded ten times for HIM, & that he never wanted to tour, but when the screws were put to him, he wasn't as strong about refusing as he hoped he could be.

I'm sure we've all been in situations where people who haven't been terribly nice to us are nevertheless approaching us to do them a favor, & we really wish they'd just go away. I know I have.

Actually, what Lindsey should have done was let the band bring in Jason Casaro or Nigel what's-his-name from Chic to produce the album, & then adamantly refused to tour.

By the way, Timothy White -- who was always fairly reliable & fairly good at setting the accurate tone -- wrote that piece on FM in Musician in 1989, & the atmosphere in Fleetwood Mac he describes that August 1987 was not an atmosphere that was empathetic to Lindsey Buckingham. In fact, the article opens with Stevie Nicks "spitting mad," & claiming that "If he tries to hang up this band at this point, he's in for a rude awakening." (I can't remember Stevie's quote so I paraphrase)

Yes, obviously there was a lot sh** going on then and emotions were running high. If this were an isolated incident I would just blame it all on the intensity of the moment. In his book Mick says that Lindsey had control over Stevie and that Lindsey had hit her in the past. Some people might not believe Mick, but it is also possible that he was holding back on that subject. Really, if what Mick was saying was such a lie why would Lindsey ever befriend him again? Then there is Carol Ann's story and his other girlfriend who legally can't talk about their relationship. He has said before that he had a "short fuse" and I tend to think that is why Stevie left him. That being said I think he changed a lot in the mid 90's and I still like and respect him.

[Mageboy25]

A trailer in front of Lindsey's house LOL! I never heard that before. Dear God, was there not a room in Lindsey's house where Stevie felt comfortable.

This is what I love about the Ledge. Everyday I come here and learn something new and trashy. Gee I would love to see how they decorated this trailer lol.

[lagringader&r]

Originally Posted by henryscutter

Yes, obviously there was a lot sh** going on then and emotions were running high. If this were an isolated incident I would just blame it all on the intensity of the moment. In his book Mick says that Lindsey had control over Stevie and that Lindsey had hit her in the past. Some people might not believe Mick, but it is also possible that he was holding back on that subject. Really, if what Mick was saying was such a lie why would Lindsey ever befriend him again? Then there is Carol Ann's story and his other girlfriend who legally can't talk about their relationship. He has said before that he had a "short fuse" and I tend to think that is why Stevie left him. That being said I think he changed a lot in the mid 90's and I still like and respect him.

You all have probably talked about this before, but it's news to me. It seems pretty obvious that this wasn't one isolated thing from what Mick said about Lindsey abusing her before this one incident, her having to walk out of a movie to avoid watching a woman be abused, Lindsey's girlfriend claiming he abused her too and why can't the other girlfriend legally talk about their relationship??? I don't think I know that story yet. I can't write it off as "two passionate people". I think it sucks. Stevie is a tiny little woman and when she said she could be "fairly ferocious" I don't get the feeling she meant physically. I think she has a mouth on her and can probably spew insults with the best of them, but I don't get the feeling she's a chick that likes to punch a guy out. I agree with Romy and a few others (Mokona) that I think he's a killer (excuse the pun) musician, but I don't know what to think of him as a man. I haven't read Mick's book, but what I read in this thread shocked me and I'm not that easily shocked. Thank gawd she left him.

I still am curious to know why the other girlfriend can't legally talk about their relationship???

[paperflowers]

Originally Posted by darklinensuit

Agreed. But for what it's worth, Stevie sounds like she takes responsibility for her part in the escalation in this interview.

- Jake

I agree with you. That is why I take her account as accurate even given her Klonipine issues at the time. I guess it was a case of mutual battery, mutual meltdown.
I work in law enforcement and given what she said, they would both be charged with assault if not domestic violence under the Ohio’s laws.
I’m so conflicted about this whole scene, especially given the NZ incident and other accounts of his temper. Ultimately, I feel he was the “sober� one, the rational one even though Stevie initiated the conflict he should have never hit her, period.

This also raises questions regarding Stevie’s reaction.
Was she surprised that he would actually quit the tour? Was there some kind of agreement that they would never leave the band without the other, why was she that pissed? He had to give some indication to her that he wasn’t comfortable with this tour.

Do the lyrics:
I didn't ask when you shook your head
I always accepted what you said
As the truth and the truth only
Well it's not enough that you depend on me
And it's not enough that you say you love me
It's not enough to just save face
Because sometimes
You just fall from grace
Sometimes
You just fall from grace

Have anything to do with that day?

In GDW live she sings:Wake up in the morning
See your sunrise--loves--to go down “you don’t want to see it� is this a reference to his temper?



What if anything has Lindsey said about the incident? I think he said Mick’s version was exaggerated but has he ever given his account of the episode?