New Bushism - Page 2

irishgrl · #16 05-31-2005, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuzeQuze

That is the best! I'll go out on a limb here and say Amber intended for minds to go down that road.

And I agree with you Amber that a certain person, who I like and admire

, pulls things out of context and uses them to prove a middle of the road point. I prefer the extreme of being a liberal lefty loon.

Im with you

much too difficult trying to be neutral all the time

but Amber, I seem to recall you enjoying an overlong article or three that I posted on Creationism/Darwinism not too long ago, so Jason isnt the only one who takes research seriously

strandinthewind · #17 05-31-2005, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by irishgrl

*AHEM* I'd suggest recording somehow/somewhere EVERY argument you EVER have with dear old Jason because he attributes things to you you didnt say (as in thinking I liked the UN or something, or the time he thought I said W started the war in Iraq all by himself, when all I ever said was that W had an agenda before he ever got into the White house!

Its a sure bet HE has these things bookmarked and catalogued!

**but wait! I disassemble!**

My friends shutter when I go "didn't you say like ten years ago that you . . . "

I was HELL when I used to cross examine

and BTW - I fairly depicted what you said dear

strandinthewind · #18 05-31-2005, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuzeQuze

That is the best! I'll go out on a limb here and say Amber intended for minds to go down that road.

And I agree with you Amber that a certain person, who I like and admire

, pulls things out of context and uses them to prove a middle of the road point. I prefer the extreme of being a liberal lefty loon.

and you wear that loony hat well

GateandGarden · #19 05-31-2005, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

I would not call it that because it is far more humane - do I have to haul out gulag stories like I did when you compared W to Hitler - ya know you are prone to embellishing and exaggerating

With all due respect to everyone, I can't help but recall Lux's comment recently that they are one in the same, basically. She seems to believe that what's going on is far more severe than you do, so I'd like to see the two of you debate that. I honestly didn't know what to say when she said our country was 'involved in a scheme to take over the world' or something similar to that.

SuzeQuze · #20 05-31-2005, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GateandGarden

With all due respect to everyone, I can't help but recall Lux's comment recently that they are one in the same, basically. She seems to believe that what's going on is far more severe than you do, so I'd like to see the two of you debate that. I honestly didn't know what to say when she said our country was 'involved in a scheme to take over the world' or something similar to that.

Go to amazon.com and check out Confessions of an Economic Hit Man.

strandinthewind · #21 05-31-2005, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GateandGarden

With all due respect to everyone, I can't help but recall Lux's comment recently that they are one in the same, basically. She seems to believe that what's going on is far more severe than you do, so I'd like to see the two of you debate that. I honestly didn't know what to say when she said our country was 'involved in a scheme to take over the world' or something similar to that.

Well, here is a def of a Russian gulag from http://www.answers.com/topic/gulag :

Gulag, system of forced-labor prison camps in the USSR, from the Russian acronym [GULag] for the Main Directorate of Corrective Labor Camps, a department of the Soviet secret police (originally the Cheka; subsequently the GPU, OGPU, NKVD, MVD, and finally the KGB). The Gulag was first established under Vladimir Lenin during the early Bolshevik years (c.1920). The vast penal network, which ultimately included 476 camp complexes, functioned throughout Russia, many in the wastes of Siberia and the Soviet Far East. The system reached its peak after 1928 under Joseph Stalin, who used it to maintain the Soviet state by keeping its populace in a state of terror. Gulag deaths of both political prisoners and common criminals from overwork, starvation, and other forms of maltreatment are estimated to have been in the millions during Stalin's years in power.

Perhaps the best known of the Gulag camp complexes was Kolyma, an area in the Far East about six times the size of France that contained more than 100 camps. About three million are thought to have died there from its establishment in 1931 to 1953, the year of Stalin's death. The Gulag scheme was adapted into the infamous concentration camp system used during World War II, especially as Nazi death factories. The Soviet system was publicized in the writings of Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, particularly in his book The Gulag Archipelago (1973, tr. 1974). Millions were released from the Gulag under Nikita Khrushchev, and the system was finally abolished by Mikhail Gorbachev.

Bibliography

See A. Shifrin, The First Guidebook to Prisons and Concentration Camps of the Soviet Union (tr. 1980), A. Applebaum, Gulag: A History (2003).
___________________________________________________________

The chief difference is in this sentence

Quote:

Gulag deaths of both political prisoners and common criminals from overwork, starvation, and other forms of maltreatment are estimated to have been in the millions during Stalin's years in power.

Last I checked, that was not happening in any way at Gitmo, which we have one of compared to the system of hundreds in Russia. Thus, Gitmo is FAR from a Russian Gulag.

Here are some more articles:

http://www.townhall.com/bookclub/applebaum.html

http://www.orwelltoday.com/gulagbook.shtml

http://www.paulmitchinson.com/gulag.html

To be clear - I think what is happening at Gitmo is horrible. I think the US should be the "bigger party" and grant all of these people the rights the Geneva Convention grants enemy soldiers captured in battle, though many if not most of those captured do not qualify for that status as it is defined in the Geneva Convention because they were not fighting in a uniform, under the color of a state, etc., as required by the express language of the Geneva Convention. So, please do not mistake my saying that what goes on at Gitmo is not as severe as what happened in a Russian Gulag as saying I approve of Gitmo in any way.

I hope that helped.

In the end, I think it does people no good to make such patently false comparisons because to do so belies the credibility of any serious argument and shows the side making the argument is interested only in tading insults instead of sticking to the facts, which are really all that interest me in such debates.

SuzeQuze · #22 05-31-2005, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by irishgrl

Im with you

much too difficult trying to be neutral all the time

but Amber, I seem to recall you enjoying an overlong article or three that I posted on Creationism/Darwinism not too long ago, so Jason isnt the only one who takes research seriously

Hmm, I never would have guessed you were with me on that.

Well, it is who I am. I yam what I yam.

amber · #23 05-31-2005, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by irishgrl

Im with you

much too difficult trying to be neutral all the time

but Amber, I seem to recall you enjoying an overlong article or three that I posted on Creationism/Darwinism not too long ago, so Jason isnt the only one who takes research seriously

Yes, I did happen to read and enjoy that one. Yes, you are another article prone one...

And I'm far from neutral, but I rarely have lengthy articles at my disposal...in fact, I think I'm even more liberal than y'all!

GateandGarden · #24 05-31-2005, 08:57 PM

Yes, I see your point but I think that Lux was implying that there are worse atrocities happening (led by the U.S.) that we do not yet know about and won't know until it's too late.

But I see your point that assumptions are worth far less than facts, and I'm guessing that was an assumption on her part.

I don't know. I hate putting words in her mouth. I kind of wanted you two to get it on. (

) I was going to sit back and watch.

EDIT: This was directed at Jason. I realized it may not have been clear.

amber · #25 05-31-2005, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

In the end, I think it does people no good to make such patently false comparisons because to do so belies the credibility of any serious argument and shows the side making the argument is interested only in tading insults instead of sticking to the facts, which are really all that interest me in such debates.

Oh, it does not always do that. Connotative comparisons are what bring the English language alive!!! I wouldn't recommend doing it in more serious academic writings, or whatever, but I think it often helps underscore the connotations of your point.

P.S.
Nannynannybooboo!!!:sticks out tongue:

strandinthewind · #26 05-31-2005, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by amber

Oh, it does not always do that. Connotative comparisons are what bring the English language alive!!! I wouldn't recommend doing it in more serious academic writings, or whatever, but I think it often helps underscore the connotations of your point.

P.S.
Nannynannybooboo!!!:sticks out tongue:

Well, I agree it can be funny, but sometimes when in a serious conv., which we have had around here, it is unwarranted. Having said that, Dissention is the same as Mussolini - though he he is not bald - and Lux is his Eva Braun

amber · #27 05-31-2005, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

Well, I agree it can be funny, but sometimes when in a serious conv., which we have had around here, it is unwarranted. Having said that, Dissention is the same as Mussolini - though he he is not bald - and Lux is his Eva Braun

I see your point, but I think the comparison to a Gulag, while not technically perfectly correct, was apropos, and a good use of comparisons.

Sorry, that's just what I think!!! Darnit!
Plus, on another note, I like when serious discussions are peppered with jokes, it helps me pay attention and stay interested....

strandinthewind · #28 05-31-2005, 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by amber

. . . but I think the comparison to a Gulag, while not technically perfectly correct, was apropos, and a good use of comparisons . . . .

Actually it is far from factually accurate in any way and, therefore, inappropriate

I mean the Russians used the some of the people in the Gulag's as slave labor to build their Communist society's infrastructure. That is just no happening at Gitmo.