The Bible Codes

[dissention]

Originally Posted by paleshadow

You can even find people who "know" the holocaust was a big conspiracy. I guess it's less of what we know and more of what we chose to believe.

Yeah, look no further than Mel Gibson and his daddy.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by dissention

Yeah, look no further than Mel Gibson and his daddy.

Well, I am unsure Mel ever said that

Here is an article on this:

February 04, 2004

Mel Gibson, Holocaust Denier?

In the debates over Mel Gibson's upcoming film The Passion, one thing that has always been insisted by his defenders is that Gibson is not antisemitic and not a Holocaust Denier, even though his father apparently is. But is that really true? He was recently given a chance to demonstrate that and.... well, the results weren't very encouraging.

Peggy Noonan, a Catholic journalist, asked Gibson "You're going to have to go on record. The Holocaust happened, right?" According to The New York Post, Gibson responded:

"I have friends and parents of friends who have numbers on their arms. The guy who taught me Spanish was a Holocaust survivor. He worked in a concentration camp in France. Yes, of course. Atrocities happened. War is horrible. The Second World War killed tens of millions of people. Some of them were Jews in concentration camps. Many people lost their lives. In the Ukraine, several million starved to death between 1932 and 1933. During the last century, 20 million people died in the Soviet Union."
Why is this a problematic response? Because not once does Gibson actually acknowledge that the Holocaust occurred - not once does he state that the Nazis tried to exterminate the Jews because they were Jews. Instead, he uses some fancy footwork that is common among sophisticated Holocaust Deniers. David Bernstein explains:

Holocaust deniers, at least the sophisticated ones, don't deny that Jews were sent to concentration camps, and don't deny that Jews suffered during the war, and perhaps suffered a bit disproportionately because they were Jews. What they do deny was that the Germans singled out the Jews for genocide, that millions of Jews were murdered, and that Jews were sent to death camps, not simply to labor or concentration camps. Nothing that Gibson said was inconsistent with the views of a Holocaust denier, and, indeed, as I pointed out, his statement sounds a lot like the stated views of the editor of the Holocaust-denying Journal of Historical Review. This all may be innocent on Gibson's part, and, if someone would ask him directly, "do you believe that the Germans murdered approximately six million Jews during World War II" and he said "yes" I would leave it at that. But given that he grew up in an anti-Semitic family, with a Holocaust-denying father, and has now asserted views that are very much consistent with the views of a Holocaust-denier, I can't say that my presumptions are with him at this point.

Gibson also said something else interesting during the interview:

Of his dad, Gibson says, "My dad taught me my faith, and I believe what he taught me. The man never lied to me in his life."
I wonder if that includes statements about the Jews and about the Holocaust?

http://atheism.about.com/b/a/061810.htm

That sounds like an acknowledgement that people were put in camps and suffered autrocities and were killed - he says that. The people that say say this statement supports that he denies or at least lessens the holocaust (the point is the same to these people) essentially say that because Gibson did not say that the Jews suffered more than anyone else, Gibson is denying (or lessening) the Holocaust. I do not get that from his statement - again, he acknowledges the Holocaust, the survivirs of it, and that autrocities were committed and people dies in the camps. But, apparently others are willing to spin it The last point about his dad is also a little bit reaching. I mean he is talking about his dad. What is he supposed to say, the man is a lunatic and a liar It is his father for goodness sake.

Note: I am not saying Gibson is not a jerk or that there are not people out there that wrongly deny the Holocaust ever happened. I am just saying Mel Gibson's comments do not support that he is one of those people

Also, sorry for the rant, but this is one of those things where I just want to look at people and say "of course, the Jews in the concentration camps had it worse than anyone else EVER in the history of time - no one has ever or will EVER suffer like that again." I mean I totally get that Hitler was a horrible person and that being killed in the streets or hauled off to a concentration camp and tortured was a gross horrible thing - please do not think I am saying anything different than that. But, I think others suffered just as much in WWII and to put their suffering on the back burner is demeaning IMO. I mean the Serbs did things that horrified even the Nazis. For goodness sake, we dropped two atomic bombs on Japan that caused decades of suffering I think that was Gibson's point.

Here is another site http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mel_Gibson

[madformac]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye

actually 2012 will be when the world ends according to the codes so there's time for a Fleetwood Mac album AND solo albums.

2012? dude, that can't be right... Bush only has another 4 years left to make it happen right?

[Hawkeye]

Maybe his brother will finish the job, if he can't do it in 4 years.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

Well, I am unsure Mel ever said that

Here is an article on this:

February 04, 2004

Mel Gibson, Holocaust Denier?

In the debates over Mel Gibson's upcoming film The Passion, one thing that has always been insisted by his defenders is that Gibson is not antisemitic and not a Holocaust Denier, even though his father apparently is. But is that really true? He was recently given a chance to demonstrate that and.... well, the results weren't very encouraging.

Peggy Noonan, a Catholic journalist, asked Gibson "You're going to have to go on record. The Holocaust happened, right?" According to The New York Post, Gibson responded:

"I have friends and parents of friends who have numbers on their arms. The guy who taught me Spanish was a Holocaust survivor. He worked in a concentration camp in France. Yes, of course. Atrocities happened. War is horrible. The Second World War killed tens of millions of people. Some of them were Jews in concentration camps. Many people lost their lives. In the Ukraine, several million starved to death between 1932 and 1933. During the last century, 20 million people died in the Soviet Union."
Why is this a problematic response? Because not once does Gibson actually acknowledge that the Holocaust occurred - not once does he state that the Nazis tried to exterminate the Jews because they were Jews. Instead, he uses some fancy footwork that is common among sophisticated Holocaust Deniers. David Bernstein explains:

Holocaust deniers, at least the sophisticated ones, don't deny that Jews were sent to concentration camps, and don't deny that Jews suffered during the war, and perhaps suffered a bit disproportionately because they were Jews. What they do deny was that the Germans singled out the Jews for genocide, that millions of Jews were murdered, and that Jews were sent to death camps, not simply to labor or concentration camps. Nothing that Gibson said was inconsistent with the views of a Holocaust denier, and, indeed, as I pointed out, his statement sounds a lot like the stated views of the editor of the Holocaust-denying Journal of Historical Review. This all may be innocent on Gibson's part, and, if someone would ask him directly, "do you believe that the Germans murdered approximately six million Jews during World War II" and he said "yes" I would leave it at that. But given that he grew up in an anti-Semitic family, with a Holocaust-denying father, and has now asserted views that are very much consistent with the views of a Holocaust-denier, I can't say that my presumptions are with him at this point.

Gibson also said something else interesting during the interview:

Of his dad, Gibson says, "My dad taught me my faith, and I believe what he taught me. The man never lied to me in his life."
I wonder if that includes statements about the Jews and about the Holocaust?

http://atheism.about.com/b/a/061810.htm

Not once does he admit the fact that the Holocaust happened and not once does he distance himself from his fathers comments. When asked by Diane Sawyer on Primetime Live about it back in February, he told her "Don't got there, Diane, don't go there."

So, please, where does he once acknowledge that the Holocaust happened? His own father has said that people were put in concentration camps and suffered atrocities, but he doesn't believe that the Holocaust happened.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye

Maybe his brother will finish the job, if he can't do it in 4 years.

Jeb could give Noel the nuclear codes

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by dissention

Not once does he admit the fact that the Holocaust happened and not once does he distance himself from his fathers comments. When asked by Diane Sawyer on Primetime Live about it back in February, he told her "Don't got there, Diane, don't go there."

So, please, where does he once acknowledge that the Holocaust happened? His own father has said that people were put in concentration camps and suffered atrocities, but he doesn't believe that the Holocaust happened.

No, his dad said that he thought less than 6 million people died or something like that. But, I could care a less about his dad. I am talking about Mel. In that quote he says he was taught by a Holocaust survivor with numbers on his arms and then he says people died in the concentration camps. how is that denying the Holocaust ever happened To me, it is saying it happened. How can you be a survivir of something that never happened?

[dissention]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

Also, sorry for the rant, but this is one of those things where I just want to look at people and say "of course, the Jews in the concentration camps had it worse than anyone else EVER in the history of time - no one has ever or will EVER suffer like that again." I mean I totally get that Hitler was a horrible person and that being killed in the streets or hauled off to a concentration camp and tortured was a gross horrible thing - please do not think I am saying anything different than that. But, I think others suffered just as much in WWII and to put their suffering on the back burner is demeaning IMO. I mean the Serbs did things that horrified even the Nazis. For goodness sake, we dropped two atomic bombs on Japan that caused decades of suffering I think that was Gibson's point.

The whole issue stems from the fact that Gibson's family is anti-semitic. Not anti-gypsy.

Gibson made no point. He couldn't bring himself to admit that the Holocaust occurred and instead made general statements based on irrefutable facts. it's what he didn't say that is the issue. It's what his father said and Gibson refused to distance himself from that is the issue.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by dissention

The whole issue stems from the fact that Gibson's family is anti-semitic. Not anti-gypsy.

Gibson made no point. He couldn't bring himself to admit that the Holocaust occurred and instead made general statements based on irrefutable facts. it's what he didn't say that is the issue. It's what his father said and Gibson refused to distance himself from that is the issue.

Well, he said in another interview that his dad did not deny the Holocaust, but said that he thought less than 6 million people died - though he may have totally denied the entire thing elsewhere and I just did not read it But the less than 6 million dying thing is different to me than denying the whole thing never happened. But, even if his dad denied the entire thing, Gibson clearly admits the Holocaust occurred in that quote. Again, how could his Spanish teacher survivie something that never occurred?

[dissention]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

No, his dad said that he thought less than 6 million people died or something like that. But, I could care a less about his dad. I am talking about Mel. In that quote he says he was taught by a Holocaust survivor with numbers on his arms and then he says people died in the concentration camps. how is that denying the Holocaust ever happened To me, it is saying it happened. How can you be a survivir of something that never happened?

It has to do with anti-semitism, Jason. You don't get that? That writer sure pinned the tail on the donkey when he said Gibson used "fancy footwork." Or should I remind us all that some of "The Passion" was based on the rantings of Anne Emmerich, a well-known anti-semite? Is it just a coincidence that he never makes mention of Jews suffering during the Holocaust? Is it just a ocincidence that he based his movie on anti-semite writings? Is it just a coincidence that his father is a raging anti-semite? No, no, and no. I was born at night, but not last night.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by dissention

It has to do with anti-semitism, Jason. You don't get that? That writer sure pinned the tail on the donkey when he said Gibson used "fancy footwork." Or should I remind us all that some of "The Passion" was based on the rantings of Anne Emmerich, a well-known anti-semite? Is it just a coincidence that he never makes mention of Jews suffering during the Holocaust? Is it just a ocincidence that he based his movie on anti-semite writings? Is it just a coincidence that his father is a raging anti-semite? No, no, and no. I was born at night, but not last night.

Oops - I edited while you posted

I get that it has to do with anti-semitism and I get that people view Passion plays as just that - I, for the record do not and would like to add that Gibson purposefully softened the film in light of problems it could cause - a fact never pointed out by those attacking him mind you.

I am just saying that that quote does not express anti-semitism. I think he is acknowledging the Holocaust - again, how can someone survive something that never happened and he admits people suffered autrocities and that Jews dies in the camps - the article flatly states that. Again, it seems that anytime anyone ever suggests that the Jews (who BTW exclude the gays and others who were also in the camps) suffered as much as everyone else or at least some others is automatically branded as anti-semitic. I think that is BS - though the Jews did suffer and Hitler was a HORRIBLE person for rounding them up and putting them in camps - period. But, I think many people of all types suffered horrendous acts in WWII - which is what he is saying

[dissention]

According to Gibson's papa:

"It's all -- maybe not all fiction -- but most of it is."

Jews are out to create "one world religion and one world government."

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/20...?oneclick=true

According to Mel Gibson in the article you posted:

"The man never lied to me in his life."

[dissention]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

I am just saying that that quote does not express anti-semitism. I think he is acknowledging the Holocaust - again, how can someone survive something that never happened and he admits people suffered autrocities and that Jews dies in the camps - the article flatly states that. Again, it seems that anytime anyone ever suggests that the Jews (who BTW exclude the gays and others who were also in the camps) suffered as much as everyone else or at least some others is automatically branded as anti-semitic. I think that is BS - though the Jews did suffer and Hitler was a HORRIBLE person for rounding them up and putting them in camps - period. But, I think many people of all types suffered horrendous acts in WWII - which is what he is saying

I had never read his comments that you posted and I find them incredibly disturbing, unfortunately.

"Atrocities happened." "Some of them were Jews." Atrocities just happened and they just seemed to happen to some Jews? Is this what he's thinking in that head of his?

Mr. Gibson carefully and masterfully evaded intent, and that is what is disturbing.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by dissention

I had never read his comments that you posted and I find them incredibly disturbing, unfortunately.

"Atrocities happened." "Some of them were Jews." Atrocities just happened and they just seemed to happen to some Jews? Is this what he's thinking in that head of his?

Mr. Gibson carefully and masterfully evaded intent, and that is what is disturbing.

I think that is spin and rank spin at that. Again, he is flatly saying they happened, which they did - AND they did not just happen to Jews. I mean gay and other people were in those camps too Many many other people suffered autrocities as well during WWII. I think that is what he saying. I do not think that is denying the Holocaust ever happened. I do not think that is denying that Hitler and others rouded people up and put them in camps - how can he be denying that when he notes the existence of the camps - I mean the Jews did not set up shop there willingly

Also, he is not evading anything. He clearly says his teacher was a survivor of the Holocaust, which admits there must have been something to survive and that something was the Holocaust. He also admits the Jews were in the camps. How that is denying the Holocaust is just beyond me.

I guess I just take issue with the misuse of the word "deny" - e.g.,

Main Entry: de·ny
Pronunciation: di-'nI, dE-
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): de·nied; de·ny·ing
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French denier, from Latin denegare, from de- + negare to deny -- more at NEGATE
1 : to declare untrue
2 : to disclaim connection with or responsibility for : DISAVOW
3 a : to give a negative answer to b : to refuse to grant c : to restrain (oneself) from gratification of desires
4 archaic : DECLINE
5 : to refuse to accept the existence, truth, or validity of
- de·ny·ing·ly /-'nI-i[ng]-lE/ adverb
synonyms DENY, GAINSAY, CONTRADICT, CONTRAVENE mean to refuse to accept as true or valid. DENY implies a firm refusal to accept as true, to grant or concede, or to acknowledge the existence or claims of . GAINSAY implies disputing the truth of what another has said . CONTRADICT implies an open or flat denial . CONTRAVENE implies not so much an intentional opposition as some inherent incompatibility .

http://www.merriamwebster.com/cgi-bi...ionary&va=deny (emphasis supplied)

Maybe the better, but less sexy, phrase would be, Gibson seeks to lessen the plight of the Jews by noting there was other equal suffering in WWII


Again, I am not saying Gibson is not anti-S - he probably is. I am just saying he is not denying the Holocaust - he admits it

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by dissention

According to Gibson's papa:

"It's all -- maybe not all fiction -- but most of it is."

Jews are out to create "one world religion and one world government."

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/20...?oneclick=true

According to Mel Gibson in the article you posted:

"The man never lied to me in his life."

Again, that is hios father, what is he supposed to say. AND - that quote in that article is somewhat out of context because in another article containing the same quote, Gibson goes on to say his father never denied the Holocaust happened - he just took issue with some of the details.

In the end, you will never admit that your original statement that "denied" the Holocaust was incorrect, which it CLEARLY IS - so what is the point

EDIT: I think Ginson is a nut case - all of the films I can think of that he produced (not acted in but produced) are overly violent IMO. Also, I think Gibson does not really like anyone who is not a Catholic, which is his right (who am I to tell him who is friends are ) - Finally, I think Gibson has been tainted by his father - which I think is your point