A post from "Jesusland"

[The Tower]

Originally Posted by sodascouts

It's true there are many other problematic areas of the world, but just because we can't solve every problem in the world doesn't mean we can't take action when it's necessary. To say that one issue can't be addressed unless all problems are addressed would be paralyzing.

Nope- missed the point. It wasn't necessary to take action (i.e.- unilateral military invasion) against Iraq. Therefore, if Dubya considered Iraq a threat level that requires that action, then all the other countries listed require that same action. He only picked Iraq because of the oil. If it were a moral mission, then the US would have invaded Iran and North Korea as well.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by The Tower

Nope- missed the point. It wasn't necessary to take action (i.e.- unilateral military invasion) against Iraq. Therefore, if Dubya considered Iraq a threat level that requires that action, then all the other countries listed require that same action. He only picked Iraq because of the oil. If it were a moral mission, then the US would have invaded Iran and North Korea as well.

Plus, in many ways I think W thought taking over Iraq would be a little bit like shooting fish in a barrel. I think his utter lack of regard for his generals' advice for more troops, his "Mission Accomplished" ordeal, and his lack of any coherent plan for an exit strategy or to win the peace supports me on this.

[SuzeQuze]

Originally Posted by dissention

Osama endorsed Kerry? That's rich.

Diss, people believe this. My roommate saw on a CNN "ticker" something like "Osama will not strike any state that votes for Kerry". I did not see it, I don't know what the context of it was but this is how she relayed it to me. Then she said, "That speaks volumes." I don't know how she lived through that. I wanted to tell her that I was sure she read it out of context and I'm quite sure it is not true. Honestly I didn't even begin because I have to live with her! I do not understand.

[SuzeQuze]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

There you go again, you get called on a point and proven wrong (repeatedly at that) - so you call people hateful in some vague way. When you are wrong you are wrong - I am often wrong and readily admit it and do not think people are hateful for telling me so. Now when I get stuck on a point and argue against the facts and people get testy - well, that is my fault

And we still don't know where exactly you (JamieSPC) stand because you have not been forthcoming in that regard. You seem satisfied with lighting the match and throwing it igniting this thread, and then watching it burn all the while pointing at it and questioning why it is so WHEN YOU WERE THE SPARK. I think you know where the liberals stand, where do you stand? I'm not the only one who has mentioned this but still you won't step up. Nancy has the courage to state her beliefs here, knowing they won't be popular. I admire that and welcome the opportunity for open discussion. Please try to stop finger pointing and join the discourse.

[amber]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

Plus, in many ways I think W thought taking over Iraq would be a little bit like shooting fish in a barrel. I think his utter lack of regard for his generals' advice for more troops, his "Mission Accomplished" ordeal, and his lack of any coherent plan for an exit strategy or to win the peace supports me on this.

Ha! Bush would say..."at least i get to shoot some fish! deher, deher" (insert dumb ass tone of voice)

[David]

Originally Posted by DrummerDeanna

Furthermore - I think the problem is - like it or not - Christianitly SHOULD NOT be ruling our country - I am a Christian and a believer - but I recognize that not everyone is that way - and I have to (and gladly) accept that because what is right for me is not right for everyone.

Apparently, you're part of a dwindling minority. The typical evangelical Christian forcefeeds his faith, his politics & his values down everyone else's throat. All of us nonbelievers have directly experienced this -- too many times to count. To quote the great Anna Russell, we're NOT making this up, you know!

If the evangelicals could arrange it, TV programming would consist of nothing but shows like "Touched By An Angel." What a bland world it would be, indeed. I lob broadsides at the Bible Brigade -- the Basic Minimum Christianists of various stripes -- whenever I can, & I offer no apologies for it. As a group, they are the most meddlesome, fatuous, misinformed, self-righteously bellicose & plangently irritating of any I have ever encountered in my years of existence.

The drama critic John Simon summed it up best in an interview with Jon Winokur for his book "The Portable Curmudgeon" when asked about twice-born Christians: "It seems to me that on the whole, one birth per person is enough, & for some even that may be too much."

[The Tower]

Originally Posted by markolas

Christ, you people get exactly what you want and you STILL F**CKING WHINE!!

What more do you want?? You want me to kiss your a$$ now that you've f**ked me over in 11 states?

The republican party (notice I said party, not republican voters) wants nothing but absolute power and control. They want to throw society back to good old days of pre-1861 where women kept their mouth shut and did as they were told, "gay" simply meant being happy, blacks worked for free, and Mexicans all lived in Mexico.

The "eleven state" thing was just a small backward step as far as the party is concerned. The big stuff has yet to arrive. It's not enough to beat us- they have to crush us into wormsmeat.

[gldstwmn]

Originally Posted by David

Apparently, you're part of a dwindling minority. The typical evangelical Christian forcefeeds his faith, his politics & his values down everyone else's throat. All of us nonbelievers have directly experienced this -- too many times to count. To quote the great Anna Russell, we're NOT making this up, you know!

Jerry Falwell has been on television more times in the past week than he has been in the last 20 years. Apparently, he's become their "go to" guy. I find it extremely disturbing and vomit inducing.

[DrummerDeanna]

Originally Posted by David

Apparently, you're part of a dwindling minority. The typical evangelical Christian forcefeeds his faith, his politics & his values down everyone else's throat. All of us nonbelievers have directly experienced this -- too many times to count. To quote the great Anna Russell, we're NOT making this up, you know!

If the evangelicals could arrange it, TV programming would consist of nothing but shows like "Touched By An Angel." What a bland world it would be, indeed. I lob broadsides at the Bible Brigade -- the Basic Minimum Christianists of various stripes -- whenever I can, & I offer no apologies for it. As a group, they are the most meddlesome, fatuous, misinformed, self-righteously bellicose & plangently irritating of any I have ever encountered in my years of existence.

The drama critic John Simon summed it up best in an interview with Jon Winokur for his book "The Portable Curmudgeon" when asked about twice-born Christians: "It seems to me that on the whole, one birth per person is enough, & for some even that may be too much."

I don't really think I'm all that in the minorit - oh but first I'm also NOT an Evangelical Christian

I was listening to NPR shortly after the election and there was some analysis on why the religious right is gaining so much ground - they're more organized etc...it was really interesting because there IS a religious left in this country - and not really a small one - but it does span several faiths and is nowhere near as organized...

Now I still wouldn't be part of a religious left because again - I feel that religion should play no role in politics...so for that perhaps I am in the minority

[The Tower]

Originally Posted by Lux

I know this wasn't directed at me, I'm not gay, I'm not even Ameircan, but even I seem to have less patience than you. The conservatives here do appear to be more accepting and hardly likely to spit on you, but they voted to put in power a group who want to reduce your rights. Whether or not this Bush guy is homophobic or even homosexual, who cares? The key factor is that he was put in to enforce these ideals upon others. Whether it's a top agenda for the particular voter or not, to partake in giving the administration this power, to me, is thinking very little of your rights. Little enough to justify an unwillingness to make up and shake hands.

Exactly.

The idea of a "tacet vote" is complete and utter bull****. "Don't blame me, I only voted for Bush because I was a-scared of the boogeyman!" Well, f*ck that! That vote enabled scuzzbag Dubya to do a LOT of evil. How anyone who voted for Bush who thinks that they are a good person can sleep at night is beyond me. And if people don't like that opinion, I really don't give a ****.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by dissention

Have you read some of the old posts from conservatives on this board who don't want gay marriage or gay people? Some of the ones posted back when The Passion came out were vile.

I haven't forgotten the comments from a few people, that's for sure. In that thread and elsewhere.
And I still shake my head at the mother of all short-sighted comments... "I'm not gay, so why should I care?"

But I think there are other conservatives on this board... including Nancy, Joe (JWD), and, it seems, Jamie... who DON'T have a negative view of gays and gay rights.

I consider them to be intelligent, thoughtful people, who have some opinions that are far more progressive than those of the politicians that represent them.

My thing is, I care about other people's rights... even if they're not rights that effect me in any way (such as a woman's right to vote)... and I'd be livid if someone was working to limit the rights of my friends.
So hopefully I can help my straight conservative friends see why it's so important to me that gays & lesbians have the same rights afforded straight domestic partnerships/civil unions. Why it should never again happen that a man can't visit his mate of 25 years on his deathbed, just because he's not "family," and why it should never happen again that two people in a loving, committed relationship can't adopt a child together, and that no one should ever again be beaten and terrorized for being gay and then told by the courts that violence against someone for their sexual orientation is not considered a "hate crime" in their state.

As Dale Carnegie said, I'm looking to "win friends and influence people"... not make more enemies. I have enough of the latter just by being who I am.

[sodascouts]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

Well, they were fleeing primarily from the Catholics

Actually, they were fleeing from fellow Protestants - Anglicans, although admittedly the Puritan's main problem with Anglicanism was that it was Catholicism without Pope. Despite this Puritans were not exactly tolerant folks - fleeing religious prosecution didn't stop them from committing it once they landed in America. So I think it's a mistake to refer to them as precursors for the practice of religious freedom.

[sodascouts]

Originally Posted by dissention

You've failed to post anything that supported your opinions with facts, Nancy. I've told you again and again that you take these discussions too personally, but at the same time, you invite it when you only post your opinions and have them shot down almost immediately because the facts don't necessarily back up your opinions. Just like when you posted about Pell Grants. Like I said earlier in this thread, I respect the rights of people to have their beliefs, but that doesn't mean I respect the belief itself, especially if it's based on a false premise and unsupported by facts.

JMO.

I have posted facts - it's a misrepresentation to pretend like I never - or "almost always" have my facts wrong. The few times I have had my facts wrong I've retracted my statements. I have no wish to base arguments on false premises or facts.

[takenbythesky]

Originally Posted by Jim Kurdyla, The Arizona Factor

Sorry to bring this up but several people have been telling me that they are having trouble accessing THE PENGUIN Website as of late even from such sites as THE NICKS FIX & Other FM/Stevie Sites... Is this a technical problem or are the rumours true that a massive flame war erupted between the Pro-Bush & Anti-Bush Ledge Folks that Marty shut down the board and is now seriously considering dropping it all together ? If Bob or someone else could clarify, We'd appreciate it...Thank You !

"And rumours are flying."

-Justin

[gldstwmn]

Originally Posted by takenbythesky

"And rumours are flying."

-Justin

From Arizona Ranger no less.

"Please allow me to intorduce myself..."