I haven't been able to get on all day!

[GateandGarden]

Adam, don't you have gay and lesbian friends? It doesn't hurt you to see that they're being treated as second-class citizens? Back when I was a repressed homosexual and I was so sure I was straight (the not-too-distant past), I had utmost sympathy for the gay community because it was so plain to see how they were/are treated unfairly. Granted, some of this was because some part of me knew that I was one of them and was loath to admit it, but I know that I would have had sympathy regardless.

As for your optimistic attitude about the next four years, and the concept of keeping that attitude because it is much more beneficial...I just can't bring myself to do that. Not only am I going to be miserable as a gay person, I think many, many more are going to be affected in awful ways, not just the GLBT community. We weren't the only ones to begin with; we were just so easy to point out. Some professors of political science at my university are convinced that we'll be blowing people away in Iran next, that Roe vs. Wade and Miranda vs. Arizona we'll be overturned, and that our civil liberties we'll be diminished even more quickly than they were already being diminished. I trust their opinions because 1) they're over thirty years older than me and have seen much more than I have, 2) they work in the field of politics, so are automatically more informed than I am, and 3) they don't come off nearly as radical and angry as I do, so I think they're being more rational and logical. And this scares me. If these things happen, it'll be devastating to many, many people.

I agree with Johnny on the gay marriage issue. The rights, privileges, and benefits in general are more important than the religious aspect, though I know some gays who will never be completely satisified until they can be married in a church.

Hillary

[GypsySorcerer]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

It's not about wanting religions to recognize our unions, it's all about wanting the government to recognize them, and to afford us the same rights through those unions, as heterosexual couples have.

The catch-word is "marriage," because it's the coming together of two people as a confirmation of their love, but it's not about marriage in the religious sense (though certainly many gays and lesbians ARE Christians and/or spiritual).

But that is where we failed. The word "marriage" muddled everything. It raised people's hackles, and the conservative and religious groups artfully used the verbiage to make it appear as if we were trying to force our so-called "lifestyle" on the good, God-fearing, Jesus-loving folk in this nation.

The majority of people in this country made it painfully clear that they want exclusive rights to the word "marriage," but, unfortunately, they blocked us from having our unions recognized in the process.

In a country where people have weddings for their dogs, you'd think we'd be a little more open-minded about two consenting adults wishing to share their lives together and desiring equal rights.

JS, I think you're right. The word "marriage" got many people's bloomers in a bunch.

I have stated this before, so sorry for repeating myself. I think people ought to realize that marriages recognized by the government are really civil marriages, although when a hetero couple is married in a church, they're married "religiously" and civilly in the eyes of the law. I don't understand the opposition to civil marriages by the religious right, I really don't. It's a government thing, not a God thing.

[Mad4stevie]

The sad thing is that marriage is not the "esteemed union" that it used to be -there are way, way too many divorces in this country. People who have no concept of commitment, etc. and no idea how to resolve problems in their relationships.

I see it everyday because I am a divorce lawyer. Even though I provide a service to people, it does not mean that I agree with their choices. People just don't have a clue about what marriage is, and at the first sign of trouble, alot of people just cut and run.

Quite frankly, it makes me wonder why we want more marriages . . .

It seems inconsistent to me to say on one hand, marriage is "sacred" and should only be between a man and a woman, and on the other, that people should be able to get divorces for just about any reason at all with total disregard to the idea of a sacred commitment in the first place.

[ontheEdgeof17]

Originally Posted by Mad4stevie

The sad thing is that marriage is not the "esteemed union" that it used to be -there are way, way too many divorces in this country. People who have no concept of commitment, etc. and no idea how to resolve problems in their relationships.

I see it everyday because I am a divorce lawyer. Even though I provide a service to people, it does not mean that I agree with their choices. People just don't have a clue about what marriage is, and at the first sign of trouble, alot of people just cut and run.

Quite frankly, it makes me wonder why we want more marriages . . .

It seems inconsistent to me to say on one hand, marriage is "sacred" and should only be between a man and a woman, and on the other, that people should be able to get divorces for just about any reason at all with total disregard to the idea of a sacred commitment in the first place.

I agree with this 100%.

If they want marriages to be so sacred, why don't they start with the "Wedding Chapels" in Vegas? I've been a big opposer to these because they seem to mock the holiness that a church is suppose to be and what a marriage is suppose to symbolize.

[GateandGarden]

Originally Posted by ontheEdgeof17

If they want marriages to be so sacred, why don't they start with the "Wedding Chapels" in Vegas? I've been a big opposer to these because they seem to mock the holiness that a church is suppose to be and what a marriage is suppose to symbolize.

Agreed.

Hillary

[stargazer99]

As for your optimistic attitude about the next four years, and the concept of keeping that attitude because it is much more beneficial...I just can't bring myself to do that. Not only am I going to be miserable as a gay person, I think many, many more are going to be affected in awful ways, not just the GLBT community. We weren't the only ones to begin with; we were just so easy to point out. Some professors of political science at my university are convinced that we'll be blowing people away in Iran next, that Roe vs. Wade and Miranda vs. Arizona we'll be overturned, and that our civil liberties we'll be diminished even more quickly than they were already being diminished.

This is EXACTLY why I'm so devestated by having Bush for another 4 years.

I am not gay, but I am strongly opposed to a ban on gay marraiges, and am deeply saddened by that ban passing in all 11 states where it was on the ballot. Furthermore, I believe it IS just the tip of the iceberg....

I was finally able to bring myself this morning to read about W's victory speech. On the one hand, he says he wants to bring America together, including all those Americans who voted against him. On the other hand, some of the things he cited that are on his agenda are the things that made so many people vote against him, including amending the Constitution to ban gay marraiges. And I agree with your professors, Hillary. We have already seen erosion of our civil liberties these past 4 years, and I believe it will only get worse. And we are now faced with the prospect of Bush appointing up to 4 supreme court justices. The very least this will means is that Roe v. Wade WILL be overturned. I also don't for a second believe that we are safer with W in office.... and I believe Bin Laden knows that. That's why he came out with that tape right before the election... he WANTS W as our leader. And I'm convinced we will be attacked again within the next 6 months.

In the meantime, we have a president who couldn't give 2 sh*ts about maintaining good relations with other countries, or about gays, women, minorities... anyone who isn't a white, male Christian. And I'm sorry, but no matter what your religious beliefs are.... religion HAS NO BUSINESS BEING USED TO GOVERN. The thing that scares me the most is that the biggest reason Bush was re-elected it is due to the FAR Christian right ... and I don't for a second believe they don't expect payback. First, it will be the gay marraige ban (because being gay is a "sin" according to these people... as if a person "chooses" to be gay). Next, Roe vs. Wade... then who knows what after that? The really scary thing is that many of these people are obsessed with experiencing the "Rapture"..... the day when Jesus comes back to earth and the world ends in a fiery blaze, with only those who are "born agains" being saved. I am very fearful that they are now going to get their wish about the fiery blaze part, because we have a "war" president who wants to take over the world, and is pissing off the world in the process. We are FAR from safe with this man in office....

Sorry, but until this man proves he truly is acting in the best interest of all Americans, I will NEVER accept him as my president. And I have NEVER been so saddened, disgusted, heart-broken and fearful as I am right now.


- Mary

[Nixxxed]

Originally Posted by sparky

There are now, and always have been, tons of gays in the military. I've dated and know many ex military guys, and they had a ridiculous amount of sex while enlisted. It will always be that way. One day, this country won't be so obsessed with it. Fear, fear, fear. This country is dominated by, and has been defeated by
fear.

Exactly -- I know homosexuals (both men and women) who are serving both in Afghanistan and Iraq RIGHT NOW!

RIGHT NOW, as you read this, HOMOSEXUALS are in the Middle East fighting. Which is especially interesting, considering we're supposedly there fighting for US interests and our rights -- including the rights and freedoms of certain HETEROSEXUALS who want to and have banned them from getting "married".

[GateandGarden]

Originally Posted by stargazer99

This is EXACTLY why I'm so devestated by having Bush for another 4 years...

- Mary

Mary! I didn't even realize you were on the Ledge. I'm so glad you're here. And, of course, I agree wholeheartedly with everything you said. It doesn't look good, but at least we have each other. I guess it's shallow, but I feel better when I visit this board because it's one of the very few places where I can locate like minds.

Hillary

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye

He opposed the ban on gays in the millitary. And thats a good thing

They are already there They just cannot be themselves - but they are good enough to stay in the closet and die for their country, which refuses to recognizes them

AND - to add insult to injury, our closeted troops are fighting along side the British and Australian out troops - they allow gays in their military. Apparently, their military did not topple out of disdain from a few out fags willing to die for their country

[estranged4life]

Originally Posted by EnchantedSLN

I'm glad someone thinks so . It's a sad day. Kerry didn't lose... we all did.

to that...Wednesday sucked majorly overdosed amounts of ass in the Johnson household (First Bush winning then no electric for 24 hours while the temp dropped to freezin')

Brian "I still cannot feel my toes" j.

[DrummerDeanna]

So rather than get down in the dumps about being gay AND having Bush in office - stand up and fight!!

There are many organizations working for change...

He may try to overturn Roe V. Wade, constitutianally ban gay marriage etc...These thing WILL NOT stand....I simply won't believe it....the only thing ever BANNED in the constitution was what - alcohol - that got taken out...now this...it won't stick...if it gets in there in the first place...

I do think that things may get darker before they get lighter....

BUT rather than be miserable...find an organization/s that does good work, matters to you and work for a positive change in this country...I'm hoping that this election makes people wake up and WORK HARDER...rather than just skulking back and letting the **** fly...

[stargazer99]

Mary! I didn't even realize you were on the Ledge. I'm so glad you're here.

Thanks Hilary! It's good to see you here, too... miss you on the other Board!

I guess it's shallow, but I feel better when I visit this board because it's one of the very few places where I can locate like minds.

I usually just lurk here, but started responding on election night because I was SO nervous about the election, and felt better seeing that others share my views. I was despondent yesterday, couldn't even go to work. I was sick to my stomach with a massive headache. AND I couldn't log on here all day due to the server problems! I couldn't bear to watch or read the news ... I just wanted to hear from others who felt the same as me. So I totally understand the "comfort" factor.. and even how it feels good to have an intelligent debate with those that don't happen to agree with your point of view.

- Mary

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by DrummerDeanna

So rather than get down in the dumps about being gay AND having Bush in office - stand up and fight!!

That's what I fully intend to do. But I have to confess that when you find yourself fighting for everything and anything you have in life, it gets a bit exhausting after awhile. Your resolve takes a beating, and sometimes it's harder to pick yourself back up after a huge defeat. Especially when it feels as if half the country is against you.

But I will keep fighting. Not just for me, but for my friends. Especially the younger ones... for Hillary, for Curtis, for Josh, and many others... so that, when they're in their 30s, it'll be easier for them than it is for me and my friends who are in their 30s.
Just as I know my gay friends who are in their 40s and 50s fought (and continue to fight) so hard so that things would be easier for those of us younger than they are.

I don't think anyone is throwing in the towel and giving up. I just think we're all a little demoralized right now, and reacting in our own ways.
Some of us are trying to look at the bright side, some of us are severely depressed, some of us are angry and lashing out, and most of us are experiencing a combination of all of those reactions.

We've exprienced a great blow to our morale, and it's going to take some time to regroup and face the next series of battles, but we'll do it.

Everything in its own time.

[SuzeQuze]

Originally Posted by estranged4life

to that...Wednesday sucked majorly overdosed amounts of ass in the Johnson household (First Bush winning then no electric for 24 hours while the temp dropped to freezin')

Brian "I still cannot feel my toes" j.

You poor thing, Brian, that's awful. My double whammy was my psychotic landlord finding out about my cat. She paid a surprise visit. She has flipped out. I love my cat more than anything, he is my baby, so look out! So I can identify with being clobbered by devastating forces. I am better today but yesterday I felt murderous and devastated all at once.

~Susan

[SuzeQuze]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

That's what I fully intend to do. But I have to confess that when you find yourself fighting for everything and anything you have in life, it gets a bit exhausting after awhile. Your resolve takes a beating, and sometimes it's harder to pick yourself back up after a huge defeat. Especially when it feels as if half the country is against you.

But I will keep fighting. Not just for me, but for my friends. Especially the younger ones... for Hillary, for Curtis, for Josh, and many others... so that, when they're in their 30s, it'll be easier for them than it is for me and my friends who are in their 30s.
Just as I know my gay friends who are in their 40s and 50s fought (and continue to fight) so hard so that things would be easier for those of us younger than they are.

I don't think anyone is throwing in the towel and giving up. I just think we're all a little demoralized right now, and reacting in our own ways.
Some of us are trying to look at the bright side, some of us are severely depressed, some of us are angry and lashing out, and most of us are experiencing a combination of all of those reactions.

We've exprienced a great blow to our morale, and it's going to take some time to regroup and face the next series of battles, but we'll do it.

Everything in its own time.

I feel like I'm in a nightmare and need to wake up. What the hell happened to AMERICA! We are fighting for freedom in Iraq while banning gay marriage here. WTF IS GOING ON???? I'm glad you all are here to chat with, it helps so much. My roommate and boyfriend both voted for Bush. My roommate believes that Osama said that any state that voted for Kerry would not be attacked, that he was for Kerry, she said "that says a lot". I don't know how she is still alive. And my BF the ex marine is so pro Bush. I do not understand these people. Ugh!!!

I'll be fighting along with everyone. I won't just let my rights be pulled from me without one.

~Susan