I haven't been able to get on all day!

[DrummerDeanna]

Originally Posted by GateandGarden

At first I thought I was going to hold out for that, because it's really important to me, being ridiculously traditional and all. But now I'm pretty convinced that I needn't wait for that. And if I meet someone I want to spend the rest of my life with, I won't. But I would still feel worlds better if it was legal and recognized just as other unions are.

Hillary

I truly admire your conviction - I really do

I think that since your beliefs or values or whatever the right word is are so important to you I can see where you're feeling so bad - it's a hard pill to swallow the state of things right now....I tell ya the mood at work today was downright depressing - everyone was either super pissed off or extremely sad and disapointed....I'm NOT looking forward to the next four years...

I am further disgusted that so many states passed the gay marriage ban...
I DON"T want to get into another religion thread here -but even I, who consider myself very spiritual, cannot stand the evil "religious right" though it's a cliched statement, "The religious right...is WRONG..." bastards.

[larg]

All I can say is, I hope all of the Democrats on here can get over their losing this time faster than they did last time (So basically, any time withing the next four years) because it's really tiring listening to you all complain about how your candidate lost and shouldn't have and how Bush is so terrible. It gets old. Open your eyes and look at some of the things that he's done that AREN'T so bad... Not that I'm saying the man is a genius or anything, and I agree he hasn't been the best President; but he has a very hard job, one I wouldn't want, and I think that he's done the best that any mortal human being can do. Maybe John Kerry WOULD be a better president... we have no way of knowing now. I'm just asking that all of you, rather than miserably "suffering" through the next four years, try to look at Bush in a more positive light. He's done some pretty good things; he took an evil dictator out of power (even if it was for his own, selfish and bad reasons. Read some things by the philosopher Hallie some day and you'll begin to understand that sometimes we have to look at the product, not the means, to judge a person), he's helped make it more difficult for women to use abortion to EXCESSION (that is, he's prevented women from having more than one or two abortions-- I know at least two people who have had in the abortions DOUBLE DIGIT numbers, and this prevents them from that ability; they now have children, yes, but they also regret their past ways because of having children and the abortions becomming difficult. Not to mention they both have various internal problems that are excrutiatingly painful due to abortions), and he's created programs that make it possible for me, a 3rd class 18 year old white male who was a straight A student through high school go to a good college and NOT be paying out of my ears for the rest of my life. I respect the things he's done. If you democrats can ignore Clinton's oral sex affair AND his lying to the country, why can't you look past the couple of flaws our President has? Besides, don't you think we could get more allies in this war we're in if people in other countries saw that we SUPPORT our president?
Please take time to consider what I've said, because I've tried to be polite and intelligent about this all, and its stuff I've been wanting to say for quite some time. I've dealt with all the democrat stuff here with a pinch of salt, the anti-Bush remarks that are undying, the sometimes crude and offensive images that tag posts, and the sometimes ignorant things people say here. I don't see how you all think you are so great, when you daily call republicans stupid, greedy and any other list of mean names. Seems to me sometimes like you are a bunch of kindergarteners who need depserately to grow up.
Finally, I wish to thank all of you who DO act respectively in all of this pish posh. It's refreshing to see that there are people in the world who can accept my views and my right to my opinions, even if they disagree. I can accept yours. Maybe you should try my method sometime; you'll find yourself surrounded by more friends because of it, as well as in some very interesting conversations that in the past were either one sided or formed as crude attacks.
One final thing, even though I am republican, I admit, I AM pro-same-sex marriage. It IS about love, after all, although I do agree it would be a type of desecration to the Christian religion to have Christian same-sex marriages, although I see no reason why two lovers cannot wed technically and have it acknowledged by our country. So my heart does go out to all of you who feel you have lost hope. Although maybe being a Mainer I'm ignorant, so please fill me in; why do you believe it's less likely to ever see such a law now with Bush? Wasn't Kerry ALSO against same-sex marriages? Forgive me for being confused.
Thank you all for taking the time to listen to me, and any rude comments made by people who say I'm dumb or ignorant, expect a letter from me personally trying to prove other wise. If there's one thing I hate, its people who think they are better than someone else simply because they have a different opinion.
God bless you all and the beautiful country we live in that TRULY gives US the choice to make these decisions.
Do you think Sadam or Bin Laden were elected by the people?
That's what makes this country fantastic.
Please don't forget that.


Adam R.

[greatdarkwing]

AMEN to the above!

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by greatdarkwing

AMEN to the above!

I still can't figure out your unwavering support, in particular, of President Bush.
It's a paradox that I can't wrap my head around.

But so be it.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by larg

All I can say is, I hope all of the Democrats on here can get over their losing this time faster than they did last time (So basically, any time withing the next four years) because it's really tiring listening to you all complain about how your candidate lost and shouldn't have and how Bush is so terrible. It gets old. Open your eyes and look at some of the things that he's done that AREN'T so bad... Not that I'm saying the man is a genius or anything, and I agree he hasn't been the best President; but he has a very hard job, one I wouldn't want, and I think that he's done the best that any mortal human being can do. Maybe John Kerry WOULD be a better president... we have no way of knowing now. I'm just asking that all of you, rather than miserably "suffering" through the next four years, try to look at Bush in a more positive light. He's done some pretty good things; he took an evil dictator out of power (even if it was for his own, selfish and bad reasons. Read some things by the philosopher Hallie some day and you'll begin to understand that sometimes we have to look at the product, not the means, to judge a person), he's helped make it more difficult for women to use abortion to EXCESSION (that is, he's prevented women from having more than one or two abortions-- I know at least two people who have had in the abortions DOUBLE DIGIT numbers, and this prevents them from that ability; they now have children, yes, but they also regret their past ways because of having children and the abortions becomming difficult. Not to mention they both have various internal problems that are excrutiatingly painful due to abortions), and he's created programs that make it possible for me, a 3rd class 18 year old white male who was a straight A student through high school go to a good college and NOT be paying out of my ears for the rest of my life. I respect the things he's done. If you democrats can ignore Clinton's oral sex affair AND his lying to the country, why can't you look past the couple of flaws our President has? Besides, don't you think we could get more allies in this war we're in if people in other countries saw that we SUPPORT our president?
Please take time to consider what I've said, because I've tried to be polite and intelligent about this all, and its stuff I've been wanting to say for quite some time. I've dealt with all the democrat stuff here with a pinch of salt, the anti-Bush remarks that are undying, the sometimes crude and offensive images that tag posts, and the sometimes ignorant things people say here. I don't see how you all think you are so great, when you daily call republicans stupid, greedy and any other list of mean names. Seems to me sometimes like you are a bunch of kindergarteners who need depserately to grow up.
Finally, I wish to thank all of you who DO act respectively in all of this pish posh. It's refreshing to see that there are people in the world who can accept my views and my right to my opinions, even if they disagree. I can accept yours. Maybe you should try my method sometime; you'll find yourself surrounded by more friends because of it, as well as in some very interesting conversations that in the past were either one sided or formed as crude attacks.
One final thing, even though I am republican, I admit, I AM pro-same-sex marriage. It IS about love, after all, although I do agree it would be a type of desecration to the Christian religion to have Christian same-sex marriages, although I see no reason why two lovers cannot wed technically and have it acknowledged by our country. So my heart does go out to all of you who feel you have lost hope. Although maybe being a Mainer I'm ignorant, so please fill me in; why do you believe it's less likely to ever see such a law now with Bush? Wasn't Kerry ALSO against same-sex marriages? Forgive me for being confused.
Thank you all for taking the time to listen to me, and any rude comments made by people who say I'm dumb or ignorant, expect a letter from me personally trying to prove other wise. If there's one thing I hate, its people who think they are better than someone else simply because they have a different opinion.
God bless you all and the beautiful country we live in that TRULY gives US the choice to make these decisions.
Do you think Sadam or Bin Laden were elected by the people?
That's what makes this country fantastic.
Please don't forget that.


Adam R.

Bless your heart, are your trying to incite to riot in two forums

[GateandGarden]

Well, I'm not being thorough as I'd like to be, but Adam, I have to say that I don't think it was worth possibly preventing people having an excess of abortions to ban partial birth abortions. I think that was a bad move no matter how you slice it because there are extreme cases that call for those procedures. You have a point about removing an evil dictator, I do believe. But that isn't enough for me. Bush has wronged me in so many ways. I have not ignored the fact that Clinton dragged our country through a ridiculous and embarrassing sex scandal and lied about it. I wasn't proud of that. Regardless, it did not harm me and so many others the way Bush's policies have. I don't see how there's much of a comparison there. As for all the relentless hatred of Bush, I can speak for myself and say that I can't feel any other way because what he has done to gays hangs over my head every day of my life. I'm so tired of being gay, but I am acutely aware that death is the only way out of it, and that's just not a viable option for me. So I'm screwed. I feel very hated, particularly because of all the bans that were passed yesterday. And Bush has only helped that by stressing the importance of "protecting marriage." I know you said you're for same-sex marriage, but I really don't understand why you're saying you're against Christian same-sex marriages, since there are lots of gay Christians out there, and I know a couple myself. Also, the some Episcopalians churches and others are blessing same-sex marriages. It isn't a contradiction.

It's really hard for me to understand why I should be expected to not hate Bush, and I don't see why I can't continue to whine about him, since I voted for Kerry. I did my part, and things didn't work in my favor. However, I appreciate the fact that you expressed your opinions so respectfully.

Oh, and I forgot to mention--Kerry did not say he was for same-sex marriages, but he was all for granting virtually every other right and privilege to the GLBT community. For example, Kerry opposed discrimination in the workplace and the ban on gays in the military. Bush did not agree with him on these issues. Kerry was gay-friendly in every other way besides marriage. But, he would not have banned gay marriage. That is a big thing right there.

Hillary

[Hawkeye]

Kerry opposed discrimination in the workplace and the ban on gays in the military.

He opposed the ban on gays in the millitary. And thats a good thing

[GateandGarden]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye

He opposed the ban on gays in the millitary. And thats a good thing

You have a problem with gays in the military??? Do you just want to piss me off? Because I'm in a bad mood tonight! I've been screwed over in a big way!

Hillary

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye

He opposed the ban on gays in the millitary. And thats a good thing

Why wouldn't it be?

[sparky]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye

He opposed the ban on gays in the millitary. And thats a good thing

There are now, and always have been, tons of gays in the military. I've dated and know many ex military guys, and they had a ridiculous amount of sex while enlisted. It will always be that way. One day, this country won't be so obsessed with it. Fear, fear, fear. This country is dominated by, and has been defeated by
fear.

[GateandGarden]

Originally Posted by sparky

There are now, and always have been, tons of gays in the military. I've dated and know many ex military guys, and they had a ridiculous amount of sex while enlisted. It will always be that way. One day, this country won't be so obsessed with it. Fear, fear, fear. This country is dominated by, and has been defeated by
fear.

Well, I guess I should have clarified and said, "Openly gay people" in the military instead.

Hillary

[sparky]

Originally Posted by larg

All I can say is, I hope all of the Democrats on here can get over their losing this time faster than they did last time (So basically, any time withing the next four years) because it's really tiring listening to you all complain about how your candidate lost and shouldn't have and how Bush is so terrible. It gets old. Open your eyes and look at some of the things that he's done that AREN'T so bad... Not that I'm saying the man is a genius or anything, and I agree he hasn't been the best President; but he has a very hard job, one I wouldn't want, and I think that he's done the best that any mortal human being can do. Maybe John Kerry WOULD be a better president... we have no way of knowing now. I'm just asking that all of you, rather than miserably "suffering" through the next four years, try to look at Bush in a more positive light. He's done some pretty good things; he took an evil dictator out of power (even if it was for his own, selfish and bad reasons. Read some things by the philosopher Hallie some day and you'll begin to understand that sometimes we have to look at the product, not the means, to judge a person), he's helped make it more difficult for women to use abortion to EXCESSION (that is, he's prevented women from having more than one or two abortions-- I know at least two people who have had in the abortions DOUBLE DIGIT numbers, and this prevents them from that ability; they now have children, yes, but they also regret their past ways because of having children and the abortions becomming difficult. Not to mention they both have various internal problems that are excrutiatingly painful due to abortions), and he's created programs that make it possible for me, a 3rd class 18 year old white male who was a straight A student through high school go to a good college and NOT be paying out of my ears for the rest of my life. I respect the things he's done. If you democrats can ignore Clinton's oral sex affair AND his lying to the country, why can't you look past the couple of flaws our President has? Besides, don't you think we could get more allies in this war we're in if people in other countries saw that we SUPPORT our president?
Please take time to consider what I've said, because I've tried to be polite and intelligent about this all, and its stuff I've been wanting to say for quite some time. I've dealt with all the democrat stuff here with a pinch of salt, the anti-Bush remarks that are undying, the sometimes crude and offensive images that tag posts, and the sometimes ignorant things people say here. I don't see how you all think you are so great, when you daily call republicans stupid, greedy and any other list of mean names. Seems to me sometimes like you are a bunch of kindergarteners who need depserately to grow up.
Finally, I wish to thank all of you who DO act respectively in all of this pish posh. It's refreshing to see that there are people in the world who can accept my views and my right to my opinions, even if they disagree. I can accept yours. Maybe you should try my method sometime; you'll find yourself surrounded by more friends because of it, as well as in some very interesting conversations that in the past were either one sided or formed as crude attacks.
One final thing, even though I am republican, I admit, I AM pro-same-sex marriage. It IS about love, after all, although I do agree it would be a type of desecration to the Christian religion to have Christian same-sex marriages, although I see no reason why two lovers cannot wed technically and have it acknowledged by our country. So my heart does go out to all of you who feel you have lost hope. Although maybe being a Mainer I'm ignorant, so please fill me in; why do you believe it's less likely to ever see such a law now with Bush? Wasn't Kerry ALSO against same-sex marriages? Forgive me for being confused.
Thank you all for taking the time to listen to me, and any rude comments made by people who say I'm dumb or ignorant, expect a letter from me personally trying to prove other wise. If there's one thing I hate, its people who think they are better than someone else simply because they have a different opinion.
God bless you all and the beautiful country we live in that TRULY gives US the choice to make these decisions.
Do you think Sadam or Bin Laden were elected by the people?
That's what makes this country fantastic.
Please don't forget that.
Adam R.

I got my ya-yas out on this subject, for the most part, last night.

However, having seen what happens with Republicans in office in my lifetime, I know it is going to get worse. I think Bush and his administration are some of the most evil beings who have ever walked the face of the earth. No president in my lifetime has inflicted this amount of damage to our economy, our environment, our civil rights, and our international relations.

I couldn't care LESS about Clinton's affair, or his lying about it. He was stupid to lie. But men cheat. They always have, they always will, and they will always lie about it. It is between them and their wives. Who cares ?

Bush and his band of reptiles are pandering to the lowest common denominators. They want us to be afraid. They want us divided. I have never seen this country so black and white. I have never seen so much anger. Bush exploited it, and amplified it. He is an idiot, and a slacker, and the majority of the voters wanted him. It says more about the country than it does about him. Talk to me when the supreme court is loaded with religious fanatics who will turn this country back to the dark ages. Then tell me it isn't so bad.

Abortion, shmabortion. It's a vile practice, but I haven't got a womb. If I had one, I wouldn't want someone telling me what to do with it. Those idiot women who have had double digit abortions and then suffer the repercussions reap what they sow. If they couldn't get them legally, they'd be dying with coat hangers because they were too stupid to prevent their pregnancies. Believe me, this administration would be crying no tears over their deaths.

Our future looks bleak, but we survived 8 years of that doddering, clueless dirtbag Reagan. Perhaps we will recover from the dimwit we have now.

[AliP]

Originally Posted by GateandGarden

And Bush has only helped that by stressing the importance of "protecting marriage." I know you said you're for same-sex marriage, but I really don't understand why you're saying you're against Christian same-sex marriages, since there are lots of gay Christians out there, and I know a couple myself. Also, the some Episcopalians churches and others are blessing same-sex marriages. It isn't a contradiction.


Hillary

This is something I have always wondered about. You can call me ignorant on this subject, and I will admit I am. If gays want the ability to get married - in the Christian sense - I mean in the eyes of God, church style etc., then shouldn't that be something they should take up with the various churches themselves rather than the government? I mean, if you are a Christian or if you believe in God, then I guess it really shouldn't matter if you are 'legally' married because it would only matter if your religion accepts your marriage and of course God, yourself, and your partner, family etc.

But, if the reason that getting married is mainly to get the benefits that married couples get, ie insurance, benefits etc then, obviously, it is a governmental matter.

I'm just curious...what is the main reasons homosexuals want the right to get married...is it purely religous, governmental related or both?

I can definitely see why gays want the right to get married and receive all the rights that hetero married couples get through the government. But if it's more of a religous matter, then I'm confused as to why I don't hear more gay people going after the religions themselves rather than the government.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by AliP

This is something I have always wondered about. You can call me ignorant on this subject, and I will admit I am. If gays want the ability to get married - in the Christian sense - I mean in the eyes of God, church style etc., then shouldn't that be something they should take up with the various churches themselves rather than the government? I mean, if you are a Christian or if you believe in God, then I guess it really shouldn't matter if you are 'legally' married because it would only matter if your religion accepts your marriage and of course God, yourself, and your partner, family etc.

But, if the reason that getting married is mainly to get the benefits that married couples get, ie insurance, benefits etc then, obviously, it is a governmental matter.

I'm just curious...what is the main reasons homosexuals want the right to get married...is it purely religous, governmental related or both?

I can definitely see why gays want the right to get married and receive all the rights that hetero married couples get through the government. But if it's more of a religous matter, then I'm confused as to why I don't hear more gay people going after the religions themselves rather than the government.

It's not about wanting religions to recognize our unions, it's all about wanting the government to recognize them, and to afford us the same rights through those unions, as heterosexual couples have.

The catch-word is "marriage," because it's the coming together of two people as a confirmation of their love, but it's not about marriage in the religious sense (though certainly many gays and lesbians ARE Christians and/or spiritual).

But that is where we failed. The word "marriage" muddled everything. It raised people's hackles, and the conservative and religious groups artfully used the verbiage to make it appear as if we were trying to force our so-called "lifestyle" on the good, God-fearing, Jesus-loving folk in this nation.

The majority of people in this country made it painfully clear that they want exclusive rights to the word "marriage," but, unfortunately, they blocked us from having our unions recognized in the process.

In a country where people have weddings for their dogs, you'd think we'd be a little more open-minded about two consenting adults wishing to share their lives together and desiring equal rights.

[larg]

It's me again. Skip over me if you hate me now because of my beliefs.

Firstly, I started my post in this thread and realized it wasn't being viewed as much as the bigger thread, so I copied and pasted it there. I want my views to be seen. Sorry if that bothers you all; none of YOU have any problem with making YOUR views seen, but then again, everyone on here agrees with you. I have two people as of right now.

I decided to reply here though because so far almost all the responses here have been what I was looking for. I appreciate it a lot, and it makes me respect your party more. I was once told by a Democrat that if he saw a starving Republican and a starving dog, she'd feed the dog then kick the republican. And yet the people of your party wonder why I feel hostile towards you at times.

So anyway, thanks to everyone here whose given a good, polite and logical response. I've taken all your thoughts into consideration.

No, I didn't know much about the gay marriage issues. Its not something that really matters in my life, being a hetero male whose had a girlfriend for 2 1/2 years, I have no reason to be concerned for gay marriages, although I agree that its something we need in this country in order for it to be a free country. I just haven't spent much time reading into it yet, with so many other topics that are of more importance to me right now.

How did Bush help me into college? Well, I got what's called the Presidential Scholarship. Clinton's idea, where he would give up to 1/4 of the tuition cost to a student in the top 10 of his or her class. Bush raised that fraction. I got $34,000 PER YEAR of my school career thanks to him. Otherwise, I wouldn't be going to college right now-- it would be impossible to afford it.

I'm not going to tackle the abortion topic again because its really difficult for me to stay polite with it. I'm not trying to be a jerk, and anyone here who has ever had a 1 on 1 conversation with me would probably testify this.

By the way, I know its hard to get over losing this battle. Honestly, I didn't want EITHER candidate, so it would have been hard for me either way. I'm just asking that we all try to move forward now, rather than lingering in how bad the next four years will be-- and instead, try to make them a great four years.

Who's with me?

Adam R.