"That Made Me Stronger"

[Claripup]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

Personally, I think Stevie should put whatever she wants on her albums.
No concessions, no editing, no committee approval... those things are for Fleetwood Mac albums.

I want pure, unadulterated Stevie on her solo albums.
If I don't like some of her choices, so be it.

^^ What he said!

[EveryHour]

Originally Posted by markolas

The lyrics are self-absorbed, but that's really the only bad thing about it, as far as I can tell. She should've taken a different approach. They're just too self-absorbed.

I know you've already been ranked on for this statement, but I think it's rediculous to say this about this song because it would basically require you to have the same point of view regarding 80% of Stevie's songs. Most of her songs are about herself. Do you think Landslide has "self-absorbed" lyrics?! It is filled with "I" 's and "my" 's, afterall. If you don't care much for the song (TMMS), fine. I just don't understand that reason, if you don't feel that way about Stevie's other songs.

[markolas]

Originally Posted by EveryHour

I know you've already been ranked on for this statement, but I think it's rediculous to say this about this song because it would basically require you to have the same point of view regarding 80% of Stevie's songs. Most of her songs are about herself. Do you think Landslide has "self-absorbed" lyrics?! It is filled with "I" 's and "my" 's, afterall. If you don't care much for the song (TMMS), fine. I just don't understand that reason, if you don't feel that way about Stevie's other songs.

I think what I dislike is the fact that she's talking so clearly about writing songs and having writer's block. I usually try to stay away from descriptions like "self-absorbed" or "self-indulgent" (god, I really hate that one). Everyone in the "singer/songwriter" tradition could be described as "self-absorbed," because they're all writing/singing about themselves (Jackson Browne, James Taylor, Carole King, Joni Mitchell). I don't think that's a bad thing at all. This is one of my favorite genres of music.

It's not even that I don't care for the song. I think it's catchy. I just don't like that chorus.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by markolas

I think what I dislike is the fact that she's talking so clearly about writing songs and having writer's block.

They often say that one of the first rules of writing a song, is to not write about writing a song. Sounds like a smart rule to follow, with very few exceptions.

Originally Posted by markolas

I usually try to stay away from descriptions like "self-absorbed" or "self-indulgent" (god, I really hate that one). Everyone in the "singer/songwriter" tradition could be described as "self-absorbed," because they're all writing/singing about themselves (Jackson Browne, James Taylor, Carole King, Joni Mitchell). I don't think that's a bad thing at all. This is one of my favorite genres of music.

Exactly! As I've said countless times, I prefer when a songwriter writes about their life and their experiences... even if I've never been to rehab or I've never been famous, etc.... it just feels more real and honest to me. But I agree that the chorus to "TMMS" is clunky, and would have benefitted the song more if it had been less journalistic. The rest of the lyrics have some beautiful imagery, and it would have been more enjoyable for me if the chorus had been in the same vein.

Originally Posted by markolas

It's not even that I don't care for the song. I think it's catchy. I just don't like that chorus.

Ditto.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by dissention

Stevie needs some new schtick.... There are only so many times you can write the same lines over and over.

You and I should know alllllllll about that.

[sodascouts]

Originally Posted by dissention

And just think, we could've had Space Needle instead of That Made Me Sicker.

lol!!!! Good one.

Hillary's link to my speculation earlier already expresses my opinions on this clunker.

[EveryHour]

Originally Posted by markolas

I think what I dislike is the fact that she's talking so clearly about writing songs and having writer's block. I usually try to stay away from descriptions like "self-absorbed" or "self-indulgent" (god, I really hate that one). Everyone in the "singer/songwriter" tradition could be described as "self-absorbed," because they're all writing/singing about themselves (Jackson Browne, James Taylor, Carole King, Joni Mitchell). I don't think that's a bad thing at all. This is one of my favorite genres of music.

It's not even that I don't care for the song. I think it's catchy. I just don't like that chorus.

I see how it's tacky, if you will, to write about having writer's block. I'm sure Stevie couldn't help but put that very problem into song, though, since writing is her life and that night with Tom was a huge turning point for her. I appreciate your explanation...hopefully you see why I was confused by your less-explanatory post since most of Stevie's (and many others', as you pointed out) songs are "self-absorbed/indulgent" (<<< I agree. Blech).

[David]

Originally Posted by EveryHour

I see how it's tacky, if you will, to write about having writer's block. I'm sure Stevie couldn't help but put that very problem into song, though, since writing is her life and that night with Tom was a huge turning point for her.

I see what you guys are saying. But I don't think it's ipso facto bad rot to write about having writer's block -- or any other aspect of the self. In my view, it isn't whether you write about yourself or not; it's whether you write about yourself (or anything else) with insight or poignancy or humor. No subject should necessarily be avoided by any artist: every aspect of the human condition is worth examination or aesthetic stylization. But if the attempt is a failure, you have to blame -- not the subject matter but the artist for being unable to delve deeply enough or say anything new or unusual.

A lot of fans criticize "Docklands" for its subject matter. In fact, a lot of fans oversimplify the subject matter in that song to an absurd degree. (The song is about alienation & the loss of hope, but some fans foolishly just think the song is about "laundromats" & such.) There's a very fine filmmaker named Chantal Ackerman. One of her most revered movies, "Jeanne Dielman," is almost four hours long, & is "about" little more than tending to housework in an apartment (there's more to it than that, but I'm trying to make a point). Yet, this film has kept audiences enthralled, moved, in tears, in laughter, & utterly fascinated for more than twenty-five years, because Ackerman & her colleagues treated their subject matter with sensitivity & searing thoughtfulness, & had the talent to carry it all off.

Wordsworth was one of the greatest poets in the English language, & several works of his are practically fixated on the narrative voice, the speaker, on Wordsworth himself -- even on writer's block! The subjects of his poems are only the artist's stepping board; Wordsworth's achievement is in the handling of those subjects. Art is a lot more than good intentions. It's the execution of the artist's intentions with technique & innovation & vision & talent -- the more talent, the better. The same is true for Stevie! She succeeds or fails based on her handling of her subjects, not on the subjects themselves.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by David

I see what you guys are saying. But I don't think it's ipso facto bad rot to write about having writer's block -- or any other aspect of the self. In my view, it isn't whether you write about yourself or not; it's whether you write about yourself (or anything else) with insight or poignancy or humor.

A lot of fans criticize "Docklands" for its subject matter. In fact, a lot of fans oversimplify the subject matter in that song to an absurd degree. (The song is about alienation & the loss of hope, but some fans foolishly just think the song is about "laundromats" & such.)

Art is a lot more than good intentions. It's the execution of the artist's intentions with technique & innovation & vision & talent -- the more talent, the better. The same is true for Stevie! She succeeds or fails based on her handling of her subjects, not on the subjects themselves.

Very insightful, David... as usual (In fact, I think I'm going to ask you to start writing my posts for me. Unless you think I should write my posts myself? ).

As far as "Docklands"... I've often complained about it for those very simplistic reasons of Stevie singing about laundromats, and her sister telling her to brush her hair, etc., and those things not ringing true to me when looked at in the context of Stevie's oeuvré.
But you're right... the song is deeper than that. And, if you think about it, the themes it deals with under the surface level, do fit perfectly within the types of themes Stevie has explored to varying degrees in her own writing.

I imagine how we view the song has less to do with the song itself, or even Stevie's performance, but rather how we view Stevie.
For all the talk of wanting Stevie to grow and change, maybe we're worst of all when it comes to keeping her boxed-in by our own expectations.

Or maybe we only want her to change, when it involves changes we approve of.

Either way, I think I'm going to start listening to "Docklands" a little differently from now on.

[Serrart]

Originally Posted by David

I see what you guys are saying. But I don't think it's ipso facto bad rot to write about having writer's block -- or any other aspect of the self. In my view, it isn't whether you write about yourself or not; it's whether you write about yourself (or anything else) with insight or poignancy or humor. No subject should necessarily be avoided by any artist: every aspect of the human condition is worth examination or aesthetic stylization. But if the attempt is a failure, you have to blame -- not the subject matter but the artist for being unable to delve deeply enough or say anything new or unusual.

A lot of fans criticize "Docklands" for its subject matter. In fact, a lot of fans oversimplify the subject matter in that song to an absurd degree. (The song is about alienation & the loss of hope, but some fans foolishly just think the song is about "laundromats" & such.) There's a very fine filmmaker named Chantal Ackerman. One of her most revered movies, "Jeanne Dielman," is almost four hours long, & is "about" little more than tending to housework in an apartment (there's more to it than that, but I'm trying to make a point). Yet, this film has kept audiences enthralled, moved, in tears, in laughter, & utterly fascinated for more than twenty-five years, because Ackerman & her colleagues treated their subject matter with sensitivity & searing thoughtfulness, & had the talent to carry it all off.

Wordsworth was one of the greatest poets in the English language, & several works of his are practically fixated on the narrative voice, the speaker, on Wordsworth himself -- even on writer's block! The subjects of his poems are only the artist's stepping board; Wordsworth's achievement is in the handling of those subjects. Art is a lot more than good intentions. It's the execution of the artist's intentions with technique & innovation & vision & talent -- the more talent, the better. The same is true for Stevie! She succeeds or fails based on her handling of her subjects, not on the subjects themselves.

I agree, but you can have talent and fail, just because something in the sum of the parts (in this case, lyrics, topic, music, vocals, production, etc) doesn't work properly and the universality of art isn't reached. Anyway, there are "sums of the parts" much more interesting than others, because some of their elements are particularly insightful, innovative or for their style. For me TMMS is among those valuable "sums of the parts" and Docklands isn't.

Romy

P.S Chantal Akerman is brilliant!