Wouldn't it be great if Stevie...

[dissention]

Originally Posted by sparky

YA THINK ?

Not so much you, Johnny, but many.

Basically, this is all just fun. I like hearing everyone's opinions, and frankly the personalities of the posters are of relentless entertainment value.

I do take the music pretty seriously. But, for God's sake, these are people we're talking about. I don't see them as dieties or more than human. It just so happens that my personality is to call garbage garbage, and art art. I enjoy doing that, and hearing the how and why of other people's thought processes in experiencing the music. If someone makes fun of anyone in this band, I do not take personal offense. They have all done historically great music and sometimes outright crap. Most artists have. Plus, most of them have a host of scandalous or remarkable behaviour that is fascinating too.
It's ENTERTAINMENT. In oh so many ways !

Did I ever tell you all I love Sparky? He completes me.

[GateandGarden]

Originally Posted by dissention

This is what I find ridiculous, and I'm sure Le Stew would agree with me.

I make no bones about being a huge Lindsey fan. Just like a lot of other people on this board, I started off as a huge Stevie fan and then "converted." I do think he's a genius, just as I think Stevie is genius when it comes to lyrics and vocals.

I love both Lindsey and Stevie, Lindsey more, but of course they're both going to have material that I simply do not care for. In the case of Stevie, she's put out a lot more material over the years than Lindsey, so she's more than likely going to have more stuff that I dislike, namely SA, some of RAL, and her Tango stuff. Now, as much as I like Stevie, every time anyone expresses any sort of criticism towards her, they're shot down and considered crazy.

Fact is, not everything she's done is great, IMO. I think she gets stuck in lots of ruts and just stews in the same thing for ages when it comes to her music. She isn't adventurous and always sticks with the same formula; she's too safe and wants to be too commerical too often. Doesn't change the quality of the lyrics or the quality of her voice, but it can get a bit rote for me. I still love *most* of it, but there's just some stuff that I find terrible. Doesn't make me any less of a fan, whether you agree or not. Then you have Lindsey, who doesn't stick to any formula. He does what he wants and doesn't hold back. Sometimes it makes for stellar music, sometimes not. But it's his willingness to experiment and the quality of it all that I find so appealing.

To me, when I look at Stevie's music, I see a pattern to it. With each progressive album, she caters more and more to public tastes, the pinnacle being the Street Angel album which was so devoid of any emotion that I can't bear listening to it. I can't blame her for wanting to sell tons of records, but I just wish she'd challenge herself more. We all know she can do it, just look at Illume; one of her most out-of-left-field songs. She needs to breathe more life into her music, which I submit she can based on parts of TISL and SYW.

There are plenty of things I don't like about Lindsey. He mumbles too many lyrics, gets a bit too self-indulgent (Street of Dreams and Come), goes overboard on the production sometimes, and noodles too much on some songs (Bleed To Love Her...ugh). But, just like with Stevie, it doesn't make the music necessarily bad. Almost every song of theirs has at least one redeeming value (I said almost, I didn't let WISYA or some of those GOS songs off the hook) because they're the ones at the wheel.

I think a lot of people around here simply forget why we're all here: because we're fans of this band. But just because we're fans, we don't have to worship at the Temple of La Nicks or the Temple of Liddy Buck. We don't have to throw around labels like "The Queen of Rock" to prove our points because, in all honesty, labels like those are subjective and just end up turning people off. It makes people look like blind worshippers, which I'm sure they're not, and has no service in these discussions. As much as I'd love to, I don't trot around the board proclaiming Lindsey "The King of All Music." Why? Because it's all subjective and just because I love Lindsey, it doesn't mean others do. I accept that, even though there are fans of both Stevie and Lindsey who are simply dead-set against giving the other credit for anything. It's absurd and provides for much comic relief.

People like who they like, it's as simple as that and everyone needs to accept that. Just because someone says some Stevie material is awful or because they say Law and Order is a terrible excuse for an album, or even if they make some comment or barb about the work of some band members, it doesn't give everyone free reign to belittle those opinions by labeling someone as a Stevie or Lindsey "hater." I see a lot of people complain about how they're so sick of the negative comments and blah blah blah, but the fact of the matter is that any criticism can be construed as negative and they're the ones dwelling ont he negative when they choose to post posts completely relating to what they see as negativity from others.

What you've done with your post above, Christopher, is belittle fans of Lindsey by making it seem as if they think he's a god. He's not, he's a musician. He has no title like King or Prince, he's just a freaking musician. To say that his fans put him on a pedestal and then turn around and call Stevie a Queen is, in my opinion, hypocritical and short-sighted.

Like who you like, enjoy the music, and discuss the music however you feel you need to discuss it.

[/end rant]

It's hard to argue with this, since you always seem to make a good case for...anything (based on what I've seen here and when I saw you on the BuckinghamNicks board), but I have to say this. All things considered, I think the lyrics are the most important thing in the end. I just can't be as impressed with Lindsey because his lyrics don't impress me nearly as much as Stevie's do. I'm hesitant to go on comparing two artists when I know that one clearly writes better lyrics. It's like a no contest for me. But, yes, of course--it's all subjective. I'm seeing that other things are more important to you, such as Lindsey's willingness to do his own thing more so than Stevie. There are lots of things that are better about him. I wouldn't deny that. But to me, everything is outweighed by the lyrics, even if some days I do feel more like listening to Lindsey's music, I'll go back to Stevie in the end because of the lyrics.

Hillary

[dissention]

Originally Posted by GateandGarden

It's hard to argue with this, since you always seem to make a good case for...anything (based on what I've seen here and when I saw you on the BuckinghamNicks board)

First off, thank you, Hillary.

Originally Posted by GateandGarden

but I have to say this. All things considered, I think the lyrics are the most important thing in the end. I just can't be as impressed with Lindsey because his lyrics don't impress me nearly as much as Stevie's do. I'm hesitant to go on comparing two artists when I know that one clearly writes better lyrics. It's like a no contest for me. But, yes, of course--it's all subjective. I'm seeing that other things are more important to you, such as Lindsey's willingness to do his own thing more so than Stevie. There are lots of things that are better about him. I wouldn't deny that. But to me, everything is outweighed by the lyrics, even if some days I do feel more like listening to Lindsey's music, I'll go back to Stevie in the end because of the lyrics.

I agree that the lyrics are mighty important. I think Stevie writes *amazing* lyrics for the most part and I hold all of them dear for one reason or another. But in the case of Lindsey, I think the music and the production are just as important as the lyrics in evoking an emotional response and having the desired effect. For example, take "Save Me A Place." Write the lyrics down on paper and they're pretty ****ty. But then listen to the song and it's a totally different experience. It can be very affecting because of his vocal delivery, the repetitive music, and the odd production. His music is more multi-layered than Stevie's is, to me, because all of these aspects are needed to drive home the message of the song. With Stevie, even though her message can be somewhat abstract, the emotions that are being conveyed are noticeable from the get-go and the music itself takes a back seat.

In the end, I'm just a Stevie fan-boy and a Lindsey fan-boy. Nothing more, nothing less.

[GateandGarden]

Originally Posted by dissention

First off, thank you, Hillary.



I agree that the lyrics are mighty important. I think Stevie writes *amazing* lyrics for the most part and I hold all of them dear for one reason or another. But in the case of Lindsey, I think the music and the production are just as important as the lyrics in evoking an emotional response and having the desired effect. For example, take "Save Me A Place." Write the lyrics down on paper and they're pretty ****ty. But then listen to the song and it's a totally different experience. It can be very affecting because of his vocal delivery, the repetitive music, and the odd production. His music is more multi-layered than Stevie's is, to me, because all of these aspects are needed to drive home the message of the song. With Stevie, even though her message can be somewhat abstract, the emotions that are being conveyed are noticeable from the get-go and the music itself takes a back seat.

In the end, I'm just a Stevie fan-boy and a Lindsey fan-boy. Nothing more, nothing less.

I can see what you're saying. I'll probably always be a crazy Stevie fanatic, but y'all are making me respect Lindsey more and more. And that's cool.

Hillary

[sparky]

Originally Posted by dissention

Did I ever tell you all I love Sparky? He completes me.

Who'd a thunk it ? Back at ya, D

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by dissention

This is what I find ridiculous, and I'm sure Le Stew would agree with me.

I make no bones about being a huge Lindsey fan. Just like a lot of other people on this board, I started off as a huge Stevie fan and then "converted." I do think he's a genius, just as I think Stevie is genius when it comes to lyrics and vocals.

Now, as much as I like Stevie, every time anyone expresses any sort of criticism towards her, they're shot down and considered crazy.

I think a lot of people around here simply forget why we're all here: because we're fans of this band. But just because we're fans, we don't have to worship at the Temple of La Nicks or the Temple of Liddy Buck. We don't have to throw around labels like "The Queen of Rock" to prove our points because, in all honesty, labels like those are subjective and just end up turning people off. It makes people look like blind worshippers, which I'm sure they're not, and has no service in these discussions. As much as I'd love to, I don't trot around the board proclaiming Lindsey "The King of All Music." Why? Because it's all subjective and just because I love Lindsey, it doesn't mean others do. I accept that, even though there are fans of both Stevie and Lindsey who are simply dead-set against giving the other credit for anything. It's absurd and provides for much comic relief.

People like who they like, it's as simple as that and everyone needs to accept that. Just because someone says some Stevie material is awful or because they say Law and Order is a terrible excuse for an album, or even if they make some comment or barb about the work of some band members, it doesn't give everyone free reign to belittle those opinions by labeling someone as a Stevie or Lindsey "hater." I see a lot of people complain about how they're so sick of the negative comments and blah blah blah, but the fact of the matter is that any criticism can be construed as negative and they're the ones dwelling ont he negative when they choose to post posts completely relating to what they see as negativity from others.

Like who you like, enjoy the music, and discuss the music however you feel you need to discuss it.

The point that I try to make... and yet, always seems to get lost in these posts... is NOT that you can't or shouldn't voice an opinion or criticism about Lindsey & Stevie, etc.
I've never said that.
And anyone who looks around, will see that I voice my opinions, too.

All I'm ever saying, is that there are certain types of comments made, that are bound to create hostility.

Let's use what you said for an example, dissention.

For the first page of this thread, no one was saying anything at all derogatory or belittling towards Lindsey. The opinion was voiced that it would be cool if Lindsey opened for Stevie. (Which, based on their respective ticket-sales, might make good business sense... though I highly doubt it would ever happen.)

Nothing more, nothing less.

And then you came along and had to say, "An opening act that's better than the headliner...priceless!"

Sure, it might seem like an "innocent" joke to you... but when you also say that you've come to prefer Lindsey to Stevie, it comes across as a snide dig.

No, you shouldn't have to constantly qualify your appreciation for Stevie, in order to criticize her work, but when you say you prefer Lindsey and then make a comment like the one cited above... it just leaves people to wonder about your motives.

I can just imagine the brouhaha that would explode on the Lindsey Forum, if someone who readily admits they prefer Stevie, were to go over there and laugh at the notion of Stevie opening for Lindsey, when she's "better" than he.

What other motive could one have, in making a statement like that, other than to stir up the pot?

Now, if someone said, "Lindsey shouldn't open for Stevie... he's too good to be relegated to an opening act," then I think pretty much everyone could get on board with that.
But if someone says, "Lindsey shouldn't open for Stevie, because he's better than her," it's bound to cause a ruckus.

You and I have both been around here long enough to know that, diss.

Now, at this point in time, I'm sure you'll probably say that that's your style, and just your sense of humour. And, hey, more power to you.
But when you say something in a caustic way, the only thing to expect is a caustic response.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

The point that I try to make... and yet, always seems to get lost in these posts... is NOT that you can't or shouldn't voice an opinion or criticism about Lindsey & Stevie, etc.
I've never said that.
And anyone who looks around, will see that I voice my opinions, too.

All I'm ever saying, is that there are certain types of comments made, that are bound to create hostility.

Let's use what you said for an example, dissention.

For the first page of this thread, no one was saying anything at all derogatory or belittling towards Lindsey. The opinion was voiced that it would be cool if Lindsey opened for Stevie. (Which, based on their respective ticket-sales, might make good business sense... though I highly doubt it would ever happen.)

Nothing more, nothing less.

And then you came along and had to say, "An opening act that's better than the headliner...priceless!"

Sure, it might seem like an "innocent" joke to you... but when you also say that you've come to prefer Lindsey to Stevie, it comes across as a snide dig.

No, you shouldn't have to constantly qualify your appreciation for Stevie, in order to criticize her work, but when you say you prefer Lindsey and then make a comment like the one cited above... it just leaves people to wonder about your motives.

I can just imagine the brouhaha that would explode on the Lindsey Forum, if someone who readily admits they prefer Stevie, were to go over there and laugh at the notion of Stevie opening for Lindsey, when she's "better" than he.

What other motive could one have, in making a statement like that, other than to stir up the pot?

Now, if someone said, "Lindsey shouldn't open for Stevie... he's too good to be relegated to an opening act," then I think pretty much everyone could get on board with that.
But if someone says, "Lindsey shouldn't open for Stevie, because he's better than her," it's bound to cause a ruckus.

You and I have both been around here long enough to know that, diss.

Now, at this point in time, I'm sure you'll probably say that that's your style, and just your sense of humour. And, hey, more power to you.
But when you say something in a caustic way, the only thing to expect is a caustic response.

I see my entire post was lost on you, Johnny.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by dissention

I see my entire post was lost on you, Johnny.

In what way did you gather that?
I understood every word.

I also understand where you're coming from.

I had just hoped that maybe you'd be open to seeing where others are coming from too.

[amber]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

I had just hoped that maybe you'd be open to seeing where others are coming from too.

Why'nt you just wish for world peace while your at it?
AMber

[dissention]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

In what way did you gather that?
I understood every word.

I also understand where you're coming from.

I had just hoped that maybe you'd be open to seeing where others are coming from too.

I understand where you're coming from very plainly. However, I don't feel that I or anyone else should have to censor what they say because it may or may not be construed as snide or rude. I'm simply employing the same logic you used on the Rumours board when I brought up the Lindsey vs. Stevie hypocrisy that I saw.

I've stated how much I like Stevie too many times to count and I don't have to qualify my criticisms by saying it yet again. But at the same time, I do because people will get up in arms over the smallest criticism. That's the reality of it. Should I have known that the first comment about Lindsey opening for Stevie was not meant as a jab? No, I had no way of knowing. Every post is open to interpretation and mine is probably different from yours, unfortunately.

In the end, we like who we like and it comes through in all of our posts. I just find the rudest behavior coming from the people who constantly harp on other posters for what they believe is negativity.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by amber

Why'nt you just wish for world peace while your at it?
AMber

I don't take it this way, Amber ( ), but could this be taken for one of those snide or caustic comments?

See, everything is open to interpretation, Le Stew.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by amber

Why'nt you just wish for world peace while your at it?

Well, I thought I'd set my sights a little lower, and then work my way up... but world peace might actually be the more obtainable goal after all!

[amber]

Originally Posted by dissention

I don't take it this way, Amber ( ), but could this be taken for one of those snide or caustic comments?

See, everything is open to interpretation, Le Stew.

Of course, but i'm not under duress, thus far. Nor have I called you out, like JS has (except for a long time ago, when you said "Bitchy much?" but we made up - problem solved) so i feel free to say it still. Plus, I put "laughies" cause it really was a joke, and i thought a funny enough one for people to tell it was a joke, If I Do Say So Myself, Well I Have...ooops, too much.
AMber

[amber]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

Well, I thought I'd set my sights a little lower, and then work my way up... but world peace might actually be the more obtainable goal after all!

good 'un. Isn't it nice when we can all laugh together?
AMber

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by dissention

I understand where you're coming from very plainly. However, I don't feel that I or anyone else should have to censor what they say because it may or may not be construed as snide or rude. I'm simply employing the same logic you used on the Rumours board when I brought up the Lindsey vs. Stevie hypocrisy that I saw.

I've stated how much I like Stevie too many times to count and I don't have to qualify my criticisms by saying it yet again. But at the same time, I do because people will get up in arms over the smallest criticism. That's the reality of it. Should I have known that the first comment about Lindsey opening for Stevie was not meant as a jab? No, I had no way of knowing. Every post is open to interpretation and mine is probably different from yours, unfortunately.

In the end, we like who we like and it comes through in all of our posts. I just find the rudest behavior coming from the people who constantly harp on other posters for what they believe is negativity.

See, why does the word "censor" have to come up?
What's being censored if we all just learn to be a little less harsh with each other? And I don't mean just you, but EVERYONE.

You and I have had the "negativity" talk before. And I think it's unfair when you throw it back in people's faces that they're the ones being truly negative for even mentioning it. So no one is supposed to stand up for themselves?
It's like telling someone in an abusive relationship to just put up or shut up.

In saying this, I am NOT saying that it's right for someone to just come along and retaliate or criticize someone for a "negative" opinion.
That's not what I'm saying here, nor is it what I've ever tried to say.

Anything I do say, always gets thrown back in my face anyway... but I've never cared about that. I can handle anything someone says to me or about me. I've just tried to stick up for the Ledgies who've felt they were being pushed down or belittled. The ones who eventually leave because they're tired of being made to feel like fools.

I had thought that people would actually care if they've hurt someone, or have driven people away, but I guess I was wrong. Everyone only cares about having things their way.

And I had hoped for some compromising from both "sides," and more respect for each other, but that's not going to happen.

No one wants to be flexible or see another point of view, and I'm tired of trying to persuade them to.