Songs that Should have Made the cut...

[Jason T.]

I like "Family Man." I think it just would of been better without Lindsey's voice -- that's one of the few songs of his that I think would of been better as a instrumental...lol.

[David]

Originally Posted by DWIG

The Wild Heart is another great album, and maybe i would foresake I will run to you for Julia/She loves him still/ or Sanctuary

I don't care what Mike Bise says. I don't think Stevie ever recorded Julia for "The Wild Heart."

[David]

Originally Posted by face of glass

And if someone claims that in order to understand "WISYA" one has had to go through the same" despondency and loneliness she's feeling" then that won't mean a thing to me.

It's an example -- with a twist -- of the affective fallacy, which the New Critics demolished decades ago.

I see lots of examples of the affective fallacy & the intentional fallacy (another New Critical term) in the way fans identify themselves with & respond to Nicks & Buckingham songs. But I do, too, so to hell with Wimsatt, Beardsley & Brooks.

[face of glass]

Originally Posted by David

...to hell with Wimsatt, Beardsley & Brooks.

Well yeah, it's all about sex anyway. Or the lack of it.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by darklinensuit

I thought you like Lindsey's part in WISYA.
And the music to Family Man is even worse than the terrible lyrics. Annoying, lacking fun, and unable to touch the emotions.

- Jake

To be honest, I think Lindsey sounds strained in WISYA.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

Hmm... if we're talking cheesy music, then I think "Family Man" would count there, for sure. It is absolutely grounded in '80s synth-pop after all, and check out the high pitch-to-low pitch VSO effect at 2:22, which is pure '80s.

I don't find it cheesy, I find it intentionally cartoonish and that adds to my enjoyment of the song. Lindsey was not trying to be serious one bit with that song; he was going for an element of the ridiculous, as evidenced in the lyrics, his vocal alterations, and the music.

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

Don't get me wrong here... I love "Family Man." I think it's totally fun, and it always puts a smile on my face. But I'm baffled that you'd think "WISA" is cheesier than "Family Man," of all songs.

Because Miss Nicks is the ultimate definition of cheesiness when it comes to her "me" songs. Case in point, WISYA and I Sing For the Things. Remarkably cheesy lyrics made even more cheesy and unbearable because she is actually being serious. Even the delivery Iin WISYA fails and thank god that's the ONLY time it's ever happened with Stevie. Her voice is cloying to the point where you just want to refer her to a good vocal instructor.

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

By the way, the whole point of Stevie's raspy whisper on "WISA," is to further convey the sense of despondency and loneliness she's feeling. Every part of that song... her voice, the sparse lyrics, the repetition of the central lyrical question, the acoustical instrumentation, and so on... it's all so achingly beautiful.

You've got the aching part right. One out of two ain't bad by my standards.

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

Like I've said, it's VERY difficult to convey depression and ennui in a song, but Stevie did it brilliantly (with additional props to Lindsey, for his intuitive production).
*sighs*
If only everyone had the good taste I have.

Hmmmm. I think depression and despondency are the easiest things to convey in a song, but that's just me.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by Jason T.

I like "Family Man." I think it just would of been better without Lindsey's voice -- that's one of the few songs of his that I think would of been better as a instrumental...lol.

That's how I feel about WISYA.

I? Love your avatar.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by David

It's an example -- with a twist -- of the affective fallacy, which the New Critics demolished decades ago.

I see lots of examples of the affective fallacy & the intentional fallacy (another New Critical term) in the way fans identify themselves with & respond to Nicks & Buckingham songs. But I do, too, so to hell with Wimsatt, Beardsley & Brooks.

I would have driven Wimsatt and Beardsley crazy, because I believe absolutely that the emotional effect of a song, poem, or literary work, has utmost importance when discussing its value.

Words are utterly useless, in my opinion, unless they have the power to elicit an emotional response within the reader or listener.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by dissention

I don't find it cheesy, I find it intentionally cartoonish and that adds to my enjoyment of the song. Lindsey was not trying to be serious one bit with that song; he was going for an element of the ridiculous, as evidenced in the lyrics, his vocal alterations, and the music.

I completely disagree that it was "intentionally cartoonish."
If Lindsey had meant it to be cartoonish, I don't believe he would have wasted such a beautiful and intricate classical guitar line on it, nor sung the verses in such a gentle way.
And while the song has lighthearted touches, there's also a certain melancholic vibe to it that is far from "cartoonish."

Plus, the song is a descendent of some the stuff on 'Go Insane,' and a precursor to some of the stuff on 'Out Of The Cradle'... and I don't believe any of those songs were meant to be "intentionally cartoonish," either.
Offbeat? Yes. Quirky? Definitely. Uncoventional? Most assuredly.
But cartoonish? No way.

Originally Posted by dissention

Because Miss Nicks is the ultimate definition of cheesiness when it comes to her "me" songs. Case in point, WISYA and I Sing For the Things. Remarkably cheesy lyrics made even more cheesy and unbearable because she is actually being serious.

Our problems are always serious to us, because they're our own... and Stevie's no different. So of course she's being serious when discussing the difficult aspects of her life, such as her unhappiness.

And it's very easy for someone on the outside to be dismissive of those problems.
Maybe it's because she's rich and famous, and, therefore, in the eyes of the world doesn't have a right to be unhappy. Or, God forbid, sing about it.

Originally Posted by dissention

I think depression and despondency are the easiest things to convey in a song, but that's just me.

No. Romantic longing and yearning are the easiest things to convey in a song. As is anger, because it's viewed as empowering.

But the expression of depression and despondency is often greeted with hostility, or, at the very least, disinterest, because of the level of vulnerability... which is viewed as a weakness (or a downer).

Simple observation in social settings bears this out: People are typically far more willing to rally around you when you're angry or in the middle of a confrontational situation... but sit around and cry sometime, or talk about being unhappy or lonely, and see how many people sit there with you for an extended period of time.

Originally Posted by dissention

Even the delivery Iin WISYA fails and thank god that's the ONLY time it's ever happened with Stevie. Her voice is cloying to the point where you just want to refer her to a good vocal instructor.

I imagine you'd tell Billie Holliday to find a good vocal instructor, too.

[HomerMcvie]

I imagine you'd tell Billie Holliday to find a good vocal instructor, too.

Woah. You're surely not comparing the two.....are you?

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by HomerMcvie

Woah. You're surely not comparing the two.....are you?

Why not? Each woman has her share of fans and detractors, and each woman has a unique voice that pleases some folks and annoys others.

So I think there are some reasonable comparisons there.

[Jason T.]

Originally Posted by dissention

I Love your avatar.

I get really bored and really pissed -- my avatar is the product of the two.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by Jason T.

I get really bored and really pissed -- my avatar is the product of the two.

What's written in the middle of the Ben & Jerry's ice cream pic?

[dissention]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

I completely disagree that it was "intentionally cartoonish."
If Lindsey had meant it to be cartoonish, I don't believe he would have wasted such a beautiful and intricate classical guitar line on it, nor sung the verses in such a gentle way.
And while the song has lighthearted touches, there's also a certain melancholic vibe to it that is far from "cartoonish."

Plus, the song is a descendent of some the stuff on 'Go Insane,' and a precursor to some of the stuff on 'Out Of The Cradle'... and I don't believe any of those songs were meant to be "intentionally cartoonish," either.
Offbeat? Yes. Quirky? Definitely. Uncoventional? Most assuredly.
But cartoonish? No way.

We'll agree to disagree, then. Everything about it is cartoonish, from the Popeye voices to the music. The extreme disparity between the verses and the chorus especially add to that; one minute your listening to a man singing in a rather beautiful manner, but then you notice the lyrics. Then the song launches into exercises in VSO manipulation and it continues back and forth.

The feel of the song fits within the feel of OOTC material, but comparing the two is like comparing apples and oranges. Just because it's cartoonish does not mean that it isn't good or that Lindsey would've thrown it together in a half-assed manner, which is what you seem to be suggesting.

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

Our problems are always serious to us, because they're our own... and Stevie's no different. So of course she's being serious when discussing the difficult aspects of her life, such as her unhappiness.

Ah, yes. The age old retort that because Stevie is "baring her soul," the material must be of exquisite quality. Sorry, any songwriter can "bare their soul" in some form, but if the end result isn't up to snuff, their soul-baring is either going to be largely ignored or considered bad. When you add bad singing and lazy songwriting to the mix, it becomes even more unbearable.

I might take the song more seriously if she didn't say "Wazzamattababay?" three million times and if she could write better lyrics than "Ooh, she stares at the stairs...there are many things to stare at these days."

I have nothing against artists who "bare their soul" in their music; actually, I welcome it. But it has to be good, which is something WISYA is not.

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

And it's very easy for someone on the outside to be dismissive of those problems.
Maybe it's because she's rich and famous, and, therefore, in the eyes of the world doesn't have a right to be unhappy. Or, God forbid, sing about it.

It's also very easy for people to dismiss criticism by saying that they just simply don't understand the problems of others, or just don't care. But that simplifies the whole argument and doesn't serve either side very well.

No one can understand the problems of Miss Nicks because she's rich and famous? How ludicrous. She has every right to sing about her unhappiness, which is what she does in many a song. But when there's a difference in quality, people are going to call it out no matter how beloved the song is by someone else. WISYA is just unbearable for a multitude of reasons, the major ones being her voice on it, the lyrics, and the maudlin music.

You love it, bless your heart, I hate it. End of story.

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

No. Romantic longing and yearning are the easiest things to convey in a song. As is anger, because it's viewed as empowering.

But the expression of depression and despondency is often greeted with hostility, or, at the very least, disinterest, because of the level of vulnerability... which is viewed as a weakness (or a downer).

Simple observation in social settings bears this out: People are typically far more willing to rally around you when you're angry or in the middle of a confrontational situation... but sit around and cry sometime, or talk about being unhappy or lonely, and see how many people sit there with you for an extended period of time.

Again, we disagree. Any topic is easy to convey in a song, it just has to be done by the right person and has to fall into the right hands to have a good effect. You like how she conveys her emotions in WISYA, I find it rather boring and pathetic.

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

I imagine you'd tell Billie Holliday to find a good vocal instructor, too.

Comparing Billie Holliday and Stevie Nicks now? Wow, man. Just...wow.

Stevie could take a few lessons from Queen Holliday on how to make such an intimate song so captivating and universal. If Holliday had gotten her hands on WISYA, I suspect it would be a masterpiece.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by dissention

Everything about it is cartoonish, from the Popeye voices to the music. The extreme disparity between the verses and the chorus especially add to that; one minute your listening to a man singing in a rather beautiful manner, but then you notice the lyrics. Then the song launches into exercises in VSO manipulation and it continues back and forth.

The feel of the song fits within the feel of OOTC material, but comparing the two is like comparing apples and oranges. Just because it's cartoonish does not mean that it isn't good or that Lindsey would've thrown it together in a half-assed manner, which is what you seem to be suggesting.

In my opinion the song certainly isn't bad or half-assed... but "cartoonish," to me, implies buffoonery.
And I'm sorry, but I just don't see anything "cartoonish" about a song that features a soulful classical guitar solo, gently sung vocals and a vibe of melancholy.
I think the parts of the song that you're deeming "cartoonish," are simply there because of the time-period in which the song was recorded. As I said, it's pure '80s... and I don't think Lindsey was poking fun at himself OR that particular sound.

Originally Posted by dissention

I might take the song more seriously if she didn't say "Wazzamattababay?" three million times and if she could write better lyrics than "Ooh, she stares at the stairs...there are many things to stare at these days."

I'm quite fond of the alliteration in that line.
And, again, I feel that line is important in expressing her sense of ennui.

Originally Posted by dissention

I have nothing against artists who "bare their soul" in their music; actually, I welcome it. But it has to be good, which is something WISYA is not.

It's also very easy for people to dismiss criticism by saying that they just simply don't understand the problems of others, or just don't care. But that simplifies the whole argument and doesn't serve either side very well.

No one can understand the problems of Miss Nicks because she's rich and famous? How ludicrous. She has every right to sing about her unhappiness, which is what she does in many a song. But when there's a difference in quality, people are going to call it out no matter how beloved the song is by someone else. WISYA is just unbearable for a multitude of reasons, the major ones being her voice on it, the lyrics, and the maudlin music.

I broached the subject of her fame and fortune, and their potential to cause listeners to have a cynical view of certain songs, based on your past comments. You seemed to have a rather disdainful opinion of her singing about those particular problems, citing lyrics such as "I talked to my famous friend last night," and "I sing for the things that money can't buy me," as unrelatable.

Originally Posted by dissention

Comparing Billie Holliday and Stevie Nicks now? Wow, man. Just...wow.

Stevie could take a few lessons from Queen Holliday on how to make such an intimate song so captivating and universal. If Holliday had gotten her hands on WISYA, I suspect it would be a masterpiece.

Billie Holliday wasn't a songwriter nor a musician... and you've stated that part of what makes "WISYA" so rotten to you, is the "lazy songwriting" and "maudlin music."
So, am I to assume that you feel it could have become a masterpiece in Billie's hands, solely on the strength of her singing?
If so, does that then imply that it could have been a masterpiece in your opinion, if Stevie had sung it in a way in which you approve?

Originally Posted by dissention

You love it, bless your heart, I hate it. End of story.

Ah, if only it were the end of the story... but it seems to be the one song we keep coming back to again and again.
In fact, you mention "When I See You Again" far more than I ever do.