i hate George Bush!

[Hawkeye]

Originally Posted by Lux

From an outsiders perspective.......when you consider the definition of fascism (which I won't go into, it's rather long), it's a strikingly accurate description of the situation that Mr. Genital Region has embraced and expanded. Try telling Americans that and you get bombarded with excuses, but you tell the Germans of the '30s (assuming one could devise some for of time-travel craft) what they were being sucked into and they'd respond with some sort of logic derived from the propaganda they were being fed. The very idea of something resembling the Patriot Act is ludicrous and blatantly fascist, they just try to smooth it over with their propaganda. Whist we learn in our modern history classes about fascism and propaganda in Germany, it is becoming accepted that not too far in the future we'll be learning about the same thing in the US. Most Americans don't realise this, but neither did the Germans.

So yes, wave your flag all day and tell us that you're free and living in the home of the brave, but if you look at the rights stripped of you, and the disadvantage you're in by being an american resident, it might occur to you why many of us are having good ol' laugh and a coronary at your expense.
- obviously I didn't mean 'you' specifically, just as a general reference. I'm just so sick of hearing about the land of the free or whatever it is. It's very ironic actually.

Actually down here in Oz we're heading in your direction, but in reality we're still a fair way from it. Our current prime minister does intend to run us into the ground by the time he's out, which by our system of government, could be 20 years away, if he can hold out. What's this, our tertiary education system is now the 2nd worst in the western world (2nd only to america)?

Meh, I could go forever so I'll just choose this random point to end on.

you're kidding me right? You can't POSSIBLY compare the US right now to 1930's Germany. It's ridiculous. We are the land of the free and the home of the brave and the best country there is. And I admit I hate Bush becuase of his Stupid War that we have no reason to be fighting, but there have been Stupid Wars in our history before, how is this any different. And Lux since you think we're so facist why isn't David Letterman or Jay Leno or any of those comedians who blast the goverment SHOT. That's what happens in real tryanical goverments. So until I hear that David Letterman has been arressted and executed by the goverment I think you are just crazy.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye

you're kidding me right? You can't POSSIBLY compare the US right now to 1930's Germany. It's ridiculous. We are the land of the free and the home of the brave and the best country there is. And I admit I hate Bush becuase of his Stupid War that we have no reason to be fighting, but there have been Stupid Wars in our history before, how is this any different. And Lux since you think we're so facist why isn't David Letterman or Jay Leno or any of those comedians who blast the goverment SHOT. That's what happens in real tryanical goverments. So until I hear that David Letterman has been arressted and executed by the goverment I think you are just crazy.

This is the apparent mindset of the far left. IMO it has no basis in rationale thought for the reasons you state and the reasons I stated above. BUT - I love you Dissention and you know it I mean these things are just not even relevant to what is going on. They are the truth with stretchers IMO and giant red herrings. But, both sides are doing it. So . . .

[gldstwmn]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

BTW - he won FL fair and square

57,000 (mostly black) voters purged.

[gldstwmn]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

Weren't you excommunicated?


I guess I just think it is demeaning to the Jews and homosexuals killed in Germany by Hitler to equate W to Hitler. Again, I am not supporting W. I despise him. I am just saying his actions are not the same as Hitler.

Tell that to the people of Fallujah. What we are seeing here on our media is very sanitized. We surrounded a town with barbed wire, wouldn't let anybody leave and then proceeded to bomb the daylights out of it. In this case, there is no singling out of an ethnic group or pepople of certain sexual preferences. Then they have the balls to put it on CNN as Shock and Awe II. THE MAJORITY OF THESE PEOPLE ARE CITIZENS NOT INSURGENTS. It's only because they went in there with no real plan in the first place that this is happening now. I also understand we're taking advice from the Israeli's on how to conduct urban warfare. Meahwhile, they've got Prince Bandar running around doing pr and the other day someone was talking about Fiesel. No one's heard from that guy since Carter was president. Y'all remember that? We had to go wait in line at the gas stations for gas.
So you make your comparisons and I'll make mine. But please don't tell me who I'm demeaning. That's your opinion. He reminds me of a Nazi.

[gldstwmn]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye

You are being WAY too overdramatic.

Oh my friend. Stop watching Newstainment. Start reading foreign accounts of what's going on. Look at the deficits. The republic as we have known it is on the verge of collapse. They're taking our rights away, little by little. Four more years of this **** and we're done. If we have a terrorist attack before the election, Bush could declare martial law. This could be the last election we ever have. These people want a dynasty. The want to make money for their industrial war complex. They're in bed with the Saudi's on it. Why do you think they were allowed to leave the country so quickly after 9/11? Why doesn't Bushco want 9/11 to be investigated? There is so much more to this I could go on and on. I used to think the same thing as you. Then the more I found out, the more I realized, these people are dangerous.

[Rob67]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

This is the apparent mindset of the far left. IMO it has no basis in rationale thought for the reasons you state and the reasons I stated above. BUT - I love you Dissention and you know it I mean these things are just not even relevant to what is going on. They are the truth with stretchers IMO and giant red herrings. But, both sides are doing it. So . . .

Ah....finally some reasoning, amongst a sea of paranoia...with no answers, to boot...

Rob

[Rob67]

Originally Posted by gldstwmn

Oh my friend. Stop watching Newstainment. Start reading foreign accounts of what's going on. Look at the deficits. The republic as we have known it is on the verge of collapse. They're taking our rights away, little by little. Four more years of this **** and we're done. If we have a terrorist attack before the election, Bush could declare Marhsall Law. This could be the last election we ever have. These people want a dynasty. The want to make money for their industrial war complex. They're in bed with the Saudi's on it. Why do you think they were allowed to leave the country so quickly after 9/11? Why doesn't Bushco want 9/11 to be investigated? There is so much more to this I could go on and on. I used to think the same thing as you. Then the more I found out, the more I realized, these people are dangerous.

Do you honestly feel this way??! Really?

Rob

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by gldstwmn

Tell that to the people of Fallujah. What we are seeing here on our media is very sanitized. We surrounded a town with barbed wire, wouldn't let anybody leave and then proceeded to bomb the daylights out of it. In this case, there is no singling out of an ethnic group or pepople of certain sexual preferences. Then they have the balls to put it on CNN as Shock and Awe II. THE MAJORITY OF THESE PEOPLE ARE CITIZENS NOT INSURGENTS. It's only because they went in there with no real plan in the first place that this is happening now. I also understand we're taking advice from the Israeli's on how to conduct urban warfare. Meahwhile, they've got Prince Bandar running around doing pr and the other day someone was talking about Fiesel. No one's heard from that guy since Carter was president. Y'all remember that? We had to go wait in line at the gas stations for gas.
So you make your comparisons and I'll make mine. But please don't tell me who I'm demeaning. That's your opinion. He reminds me of a Nazi.

I am not saying innocent Iraqis are not being killed or that that is not a horrible thing. All I am saying is the mindset of Hitler is not there. So, I think any comparison to Hitler is at best tenuous. Again, we are not taking over Iraq. We liberated it. Hitler would have taken it over and put all non Aryan people in ovens. We are trying to est. a democracy. There is a huge difference there. And, you know I totally agree with you that W and his cronies have botched this to no end and should have to pay the piper for it. All I am saying is their intent was in no way Hitleresq

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by Lux

Whoops, forgot to mention that the whole argument supporting agression against Iraq is based entirely on false information. Small detail, I know. Say, didn't they tell us in 2001 that Iraq was not a conventional threat, that they had no grounds on which to base belief that Hussein had weapons.

Well they tried to bury that and your good selves that suddenly they assembled these weapons from resources that they couldn't possibly have had anyway (due to sanctoins). I think it might be unconstitutional for a leader to lie to his people about the reasoning for going to war. Doesn't anybody give a **** that they outright lied?

Originally Posted by Lux

Paranoia? Hardly. More like informed logic. Content ignorance combined with a ridiculous fear of strangers is exactly what they want. Instead, fear the government that lies to its people.

Once again and please read carefully this time , the UN for 11 years unanimously thought SH had WMD based on this false information; it passed resolution after resolution to try to get SH to comply. Yet, time after time, SH did not lift a finger to prove otherwise even though it was his duty to do so. Therefore, he is gone.

I am not in any way saying I agree with the way the US and her allies did this - I do not agree with it at all.

All I am saying is there was a reason behind it that the world agreed with for over 11 years about the WMD. HEll, we gave most of them to him. Yet, when it came time to do something about it, France and Russia take a bribe and bow out once again letting SH off of the hook.

I am also saying that this reason belies the credibility of your inital assertion that the US is acting like the Third Reich.

Any suggestion that I am saying otherwise is false.

Any suggestion that I am saying what is happening in Iraq is not horrible is false.

Any suggestion that I am saying innocent Iraqi's are not being killed is false.

Any suggestion that I am not saying oil had nothing to do with this is false.

Any suggestion that I am saying W did not lie about the exigency of the theat of Iraq to the continental US and her allies is false.

All and again ALL I am saying is there is no direct comparison to Hitler and his plans for aggression and world dominance to effectuate genocide to create an Aryan race. To throw in all of this other stuff that you did is not arguing against my sole point here which is, again, W is not Hitler - not by a long shot.

Got it now?

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by Lux

Eck! People don't still believe that do they? If Iraq were liberated it would be set free from confinement and foreign control. Not exactly a description of the state of Iraq. Did we 'liberate' Afghanistan too? Get rid of the bad guys and pass the population along into the hands of the previous bad guys.

Do people not believe that their are alteriative motives to the laughable concept that Bush wants to help the people of Iraq? They seriously have no other intentions? Nothing to do with control in the Middle East at all? Yes, because obviously Bush is such a bleeding heart he likes to go and help out all troubled nations, liberating them from their mean, mean leaders and providing safe living conditions and rations of candy.

Do you really think we should have let the Taliban and Al-Q rule Afganistan? Just let them go on without any reprecussions for 9/11 and all of the other attacks. Didn't we give the Taliban a chance to turn over Bin Laden and they said - "Oh BL could never have done what you assert -- BL is a peaceful man" -- then the Taliban said they did not know where he was -- then the leader of the Taliban appears on t.v. with Bin Laden a few days later. How stupid did they think we were. So, please do not expect any credibility to the argument that we (and the rest of the world mind you) should not have attacked Afganistan - if that is indeed what you are arguing. Interestingly, the liberals in this country were screaming for the govt. to do somehting when the Taliban took over Afganistan. Then, when W does something, because he is W, the liberals here cannot admit that the Taliban, which was bankrolled by Bin Laden, needed to go.

Also, please demonstrate how W and America are not trying to est. a democracy in Iraq. Hopefully, their govt. will be est. on June 30. Granted they are not getting full power, but they are not ready for it are they. Moreover, history demonstrates that for the US to pull out now would be a horrible thing. Rather, it is a good thing for us to stay there and help them est. a democracy and keep the peace while doing so. So, yes, W and his cronies may have a hidden agenda, but so far it has not played out. In fact, quite the contrary has happened in that the US has givem not loaned, billions to the Iraqi people and gotten rid of a horrible person who defied committed genocide there and defied the world for over 11 years. How is that a bad thing notwithstanding the loss of life in the struggle which is horrible and unnecessary IMO?

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by Lux

But what's that got to do with weapons inspections and resultant economic sanctions?

Again, you asserted W's regime was the same as the Third Reich. As I mentioned more than once, I was commenting on that alone. When I suggested that W was no Hitler, you went off about how Iraqi's are dying for a senseless and illegal war, etc. So, I pointed out that W at least had a reason the world supported for 11 or more years as opposed to Hitler who did not. That is all I am saying. I basically agree with you and others that the war in Iraq could perhaps have been avoided and that W lied to get us there.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by Lux

Democracy, in Iraq? Well I'm keen to see how that one goes. A very unrealistic prospect from a historical perspective.



Well, I hate to be blatantly politically incorrect, but perhaps the Taliban was thinking the exact same thing (except in reverse). They certainly weren't justified, nor supported by their people, but I suggest their reasoning was that you **** our people over for long enough, we strike back. American agression seems to go unnoticed, but if someone even steps on America's toe, let alone punches it in the face (like my metaphors?), America seems to be justified in it's aggresive response. Maybe it's because they own all the weapons.......? Ruling the world through fear of aggression.

Anyway, back to what we were talking about.....Afghanistan. Right, well America sure put that country straight! Yes, let's invade (and murder whilst doing so, rather hypocritically seeing that the reasoning for the invasion in the first place was that the Taliban were murders), put warlords in power, chuck some puppets in front of microphones and pretend we liberated them. 'You killed our people! Now we're going to kill some of yours (but pretend we're liberating them).' Doesn't make them much better than the terrorists.

Again, what else should have been done in Afganistan? I am all ears for an alternative solution. Should the US leave the Middle East altoghether? While that sounds good it is not a feasible option. Moreover, exactly how did America screw Afganistan over? How has America screwed Saudi Arabia over. I suggest America has not. But, these people see America as the aggressor who acted alone. I think that is wrong. I mean why not go after The Vatican. Surely the Roman Catholic Church is far guiltier than America is at trying to dominate the Middle East (at least Isreal). But, instead, they try to punish us for teaching them how to drill for and then buying their oil, which the rest of the world does as well and are not similarly blamed. Moreover, without the oil, the world would cease to function (sadly so I might add). So, while yes the West in general has been historically horrible to the Middle East, America certainly was not even created during much of that and she certainly has not acted alone since. I think it all boils down to religion and their religion cannot stand the fact that Jews are in Israel and protected by the West and that non-Muslims have any power in Saudi Arabia.

[Rob67]

Originally Posted by Lux

Eck! People don't still believe that do they? If Iraq were liberated it would be set free from confinement and foreign control. Not exactly a description of the state of Iraq. Did we 'liberate' Afghanistan too? Get rid of the bad guys and pass the population along into the hands of the previous bad guys.

And your plans for a long term and stable Middle East would include???

And if we look into history (which many people convieniantly neglect to do) we find that it took about 7 years or so for us to turn full control over to the Japanese after WWII. In comparison, Just over a year in Iraq does not seem unrealistic. If we were interested in expansion...Japan could be the 51st state right now....(well...actually 49th).

And look how many years it took to rebuild Europe....Where did the Marshall plan come from again???

Rob

[dissention]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

Conversely, W has not advocated or caused the execution of millions of innocent Jews and homosexuals. Also, unlike Hitler, W has also not advocated mass genocide and taking over the world to create one perfect race that I know of.

Nope, he's advocated the genocide of the Iraqi people. Not to create a perfect race, but to create a colony for America in the Middle East.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye

You are being WAY too overdramatic.

Pick up a foreign newspaper (or even a Canadian one) and tell me I'm being overdramatic. You're not being dramatic enough, my friend. Four years under a police state is enough for me.