Silver Springs: The worst decision in the history of pop?

CarneVaca · #1 07-23-2003, 08:57 AM

OK, the title is somewhat misleading. We all know Lindsey made a last-minute decision to pull Silver Springs from Rumours. I Don't Wanna Know, a fair but not brilliant song, took its place. There wasn't enough room for Silver Springs.

Question: Is this the worst decision in the history of pop music, considering how great Silver Springs is? Should Lindsey have rearranged the album, maybe pulling out Oh Daddy for instance, to fit the song?

strandinthewind · #2 07-23-2003, 09:18 AM

Yes - this was the worst decision I can think of.

I think on some level some form of ego driven jealousy took over and some members of the band realized that if they included it that would probably give La Nicks the not necessarily better, but certainly most pop oriented and chartable (sp.?) song on the record, esp. given her popularity at the time (no slam on the pop oriented and definitely chartable Don't Stop or GYOW intended

). Moreover and not meaning to tread of pop history and perfection, I think all they needed was less than a minute of time to make it fit. They could have taken "a few seconds here a few seconds there" from other songs such as "Oh Daddy," "The Chain," etc., to accomplish this goal. This time could have been taken in different places in each song. For example, "Dreams" could have been edited about three seconds in the intro (i.e. she starts singing sooner) and she could have deleted one of the choruses at the end for an additional gain of about 10 seconds. She could have also shortened the music and perhaps one chorus of SS. So, my point is if they as a group had wanted it on Rumors, it was possible to put it on there. They also could have put it on Tusk. So, I think someone just did not want it on there for whatever reason.

Food for Thought

WednesdaysChild · #3 07-23-2003, 09:30 AM

I thought Mick took it off, not Lindsey...

DownOnRodeo · #4 07-23-2003, 09:43 AM

I think Stevie would have quit if Lindsey was being that overtly manipulative against her. It was just a more technical thing, and yes Mick was the one who pulled the short straw to tell her; but he was the manager anyway I guess. I know it's not for me to say one way or the other, but I just believe that Lindsey would not have been that boundlessly vindictive to actually tryu to work against the song being on the record if he thought it was good. Going from he's said about it in some VBOFM articles, he liked the song and really laboured on the arrangement and was very pleased with it.

As for I Don't Wanna Know and Oh Daddy - I'd be the first to see BOTH of these get the hike from Rumours, with SS in place - then it would be perfect IMO. But is it just me or at this point they weren't "backing away from commercial success" like in Tusk. They were aiming for it. Judging by the previous album from 1975, Chrsitine was they key to giving them the hits. I think that at that stage they gave more album weight to Chris than Stevie from what had been proven up until that point. That's for Oh Daddy. As for IDWK - well, how could they resist... it's total muzak.

I get the distinct impression Lindsey would have been happier to see SS in place of IDWK. But he was not calling the shots at that stage.

Les · #5 07-23-2003, 10:08 AM

Everyone from Ken Caillat to Richard Dashut to Mick Fleetwood to Stevie Nicks herself has said the song was removed due to time constraints with vinyl, and several of those people have also indicated it was a collective decision not arrived at easily.

So I have to disagree with the form of the question. It's never been said that removing Silver Springs was Lindsey's decision. I don't think it's got anything to do with anyone else in the band trying to deny Stevie of anything. If jealousy or anger or hurt feelings were involved, that would have stopped the song in its tracks before it even got started. The band wouldn't have gone through the process of completing the entire song and mixing it and making it the beautiful piece that it is unless they had very much originally intended for it to make the album. There is a great deal of blood, sweat and tears put into that song by everyone - a lot of completely beautiful guitar work by Lindsey.

Stevie admits herself that she doesn't like to cut things out of her songs. I imagine the notion of cutting something out of Dreams and cutting something out of Silver Springs to make them both fit on the album was entirely unacceptable to her. It would have been cutting off an ear here and a nose there. That's not something she was willing to do.

I suspect it didn't turn up on subsequent albums because Stevie felt it very much represented the Rumours time period and because she was always writing new things for new projects. She could have rerecorded Silver Springs for one of her solo albums, but she never did that either.

It clearly very much upset Stevie at the time, and understandably so, but ultimately Rumours didn't turn out too shabby and Silver Springs has probably taken on a greater meaning and mythology because of its path to be heard.

DownOnRodeo · #6 07-23-2003, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Les

It clearly very much upset Stevie at the time, and understandably so, but ultimately Rumours didn't turn out too shabby and Silver Springs has probably taken on a greater meaning and mythology because of its path to be heard.

Hear hear Les. I wanted to remark that frankly I'm almost happy that it turned out to be this 'jewel in the crown' when it was reapproached for The Dance, but I thought it'd be too heretical against the Rumours-version fans

And I've realised what the Worst Mistake in the History of Pop/Fleetwood Mac: Oh Diane making the UK/Australian version of the 1988 Greatest Hits CD.

CarneVaca · #7 07-23-2003, 10:23 AM

Attribute my pinning the decision on Lindsey in my original question to my faulty memory. But I think if he had really pushed for the song, it would have made the album. I could be wrong, but after all, Lindsey was as much the producer of that project as anyone.

There was a technical problem, yes, but pulling out Silver Springs was the easisest decision they could have made. If you take out Oh Daddy, the low point of Rumours in my view, and insert Silver Springs, you have a tremendous album. Not that it is shabby otherwise.

Strand, I'm not sure I would call Go Your Own Way a chart-friendly song. Now that 25 years have elapsed and we've all heard it on the radio thousands of times, it may seem like a radio-ready song. But in 1977, you had the oddball beat to contend with, and the band actually took a calculated risk in releasing it as the first single off Rumours.

CarneVaca · #8 07-23-2003, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DownOnRodeo
And I've realised what the Worst Mistake in the History of Pop/Fleetwood Mac: Oh Diane making the UK/Australian version of the 1988 Greatest Hits CD.

Oh, dude, now you've done it! Wait till Mrs. Carne sees this!

Les · #9 07-23-2003, 10:27 AM

Quote:

And I've realised what the Worst Mistake in the History of Pop/Fleetwood Mac: Oh Diane making the UK/Australian version of the 1988 Greatest Hits CD.

LOL! Lindsey himself has said he doesn't much like Oh Diane, so he might agree with you.

strandinthewind · #10 07-23-2003, 10:37 AM

Hey - I like Oh Diane!!!!!!!

I don't love it, but I really do like it

But, I totally agree with it being the low point!!!!!!

Also, I, too, am glad SS made its way to The Dance. it just seems to have "made" that already great concert by injecting it full of, for want of a better word, venom.

CarneVaca · #11 07-23-2003, 10:37 AM

He said that!!??

I like that song.

CarneVaca · #12 07-23-2003, 10:38 AM

There are definitely worse songs in Mirage than Oh Diane.

RavenOfRhiannon · #13 07-23-2003, 10:42 AM

Actually, In a 1991 interview just before she hit the stage at the Roxy, Stevie was asked about 'Silver Springs' and she said she was going to rerecord it for her next album. This was around the time she was furious at Mick for not letting her have the original recording to put onto 'Timespace.'

It is a godsend that she didn't record it in a Klonopin haze...

Randy

gldstwmn · #14 07-23-2003, 12:23 PM

On hearing the Mirage outtakes, it seems to me there was wealth of unused material for that record, some of it actually much better than what made the record.
As for Silver Springs, it was too long to be a single I think, which probably factored into the decision not to put it on the album. When you think about it, it was really one of the first of Stevie's "angry songs" to be recorded and FM has a pattern of not going with Stevie's angry songs. Sure, she was allowed to tear up Rhiannon live but not on the record. I think the band thought the bitterness factor of Silver Springs didn't fit with the rest of the sound of Rumors. As far as it being a mistake, I view it as a blessing in disguise because we got it in 1997 instead. I'll never forget the MTV special when she turned to face LB and let him have it with the end of that song. That, to me, epitomized the Buckingham Nicks magic in Fleetwood Mac.

strandinthewind · #15 07-23-2003, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by gldstwmn
As far as it being a mistake, I view it as a blessing in disguise because we got it in 1997 instead. I'll never forget the MTV special when she turned to face LB and let him have it with the end of that song. That, to me, epitomized the Buckingham Nicks magic in Fleetwood Mac.

I, too, will never in my life forget the chills I had when I saw that. I was alone and thinking there is no way she will ever be able to do that vocal with her current voice. Boy was I wrong. And then she turned and barked - Sigh!!!!