Shame on you, NC

[jannieC]

Originally Posted by KarmaContestant

We are in a period of time where there is a national debate over equal marriage rights for gay and lesbian couples, but I have no doubt that full marriage equality is coming, and it's coming soon. It is inevitable that some people will fall on the wrong side of this debate, so to speak, and years from now others may very well look back and wonder how in the world anyone could have been opposed to marriage equality.

The notion that only heterosexual couples could marry will seem ludicrous, I have no doubt whatsoever.

Because it's a current issue and many are apprehensive about change, feelings run deep and tensions are high - but the fact remains that for some people, anyone who disagrees with marriage equality may very well be considered "garbage". Is it kind of harsh? Maybe. Should that opinion be kept to oneself? Perhaps. But for some of us - myself included - this issue of gay marriage is as critical as any other civil rights issue, and I doubt any one of us would have a problem with a board member calling an advocate of white supremacy garbage - or calling a mysogynist who was posting about the inferiority of women garbage, regardless of the rules. If a member of this board were on here posting about how our soldiers were being killed in combat, or that a U.S. city was devastated by a natural disaster because America is too liberal towards gays and God hates fags, would anyone *truly* care if another member called them garbage? You may say yes out of political correctness, but I wouldn't believe you.

It's all relative to me. As any gay person can testify, the world we live in isn't always a nice place to be.

One could just say, "what you're saying is complete garbage." It's not cool to call names; we have the ability to defend our positions without resorting to that. The message gets lost, in my opinion, when we speak that way.

But for some of us - myself included - this issue of gay marriage is as critical as any other civil rights issue

I get this and find the whole situation heartbreaking.

[HomerMcvie]

Originally Posted by jannieC

I get this and find the whole situation heartbreaking.

But the change is coming. And people hate change! It's only a matter of time....

[jannieC]

Originally Posted by HomerMcvie

But the change is coming. And people hate change! It's only a matter of time....

Stupid NC's decision has definitely created a lot of dialogue. I was on vacation with a friend over the last few days and noticed that every news channel had some sort of discussion about these issues going on. That has to be a positive, right?

[HomerMcvie]

Originally Posted by jannieC

Stupid NC's decision has definitely created a lot of dialogue. I was on vacation with a friend over the last few days and noticed that every news channel had some sort of discussion about these issues going on. That has to be a positive, right?

Absolutely. And as strange as it sounds, I think NC's idiotic decision has probably helped gay rights, more than anything, since it's brought about such debate!

[KarmaContestant]

Originally Posted by HomerMcvie

But this is a FORUM. Debates are all part of it. If your own(not you) view of the world is so myopic that you can't TOLERATE any opinion, other than your own, then you probably shouldn't participate.

#doesn'tplaywellwithothers

Originally Posted by jannieC

One could just say, "what you're saying is complete garbage." It's not cool to call names; we have the ability to defend our positions without resorting to that. The message gets lost, in my opinion, when we speak that way.

Yes, you're both absolutely right in principle. I know personal attacks aren't cool, but I just don't think a ban is the solution, and that was my point.

I'm sure markolas knows he went too far.

[HejiraNYC]

Originally Posted by HomerMcvie

Absolutely. And as strange as it sounds, I think NC's idiotic decision has probably helped gay rights, more than anything, since it's brought about such debate!

I think this could all be part of a sea change toward enlightenment or a thousand major steps back in evolution. Mr. Obama definitely bet the house on this move.

On the one hand, I think it's incredibly powerful that the most powerful man on earth has stated his support for equal rights for GLBT. Regardless of where one stands on this issue, that kind of support is undeniable. And hopefully people who have kind of sat on the sidelines without feeling strongly about it one way or the other will feel more inclined to support the president. Rather than stating outright that religious institutions should have nothing to do with public policy in a secular society (which he could have!), I appreciate that he is turning the "golden rule" back on the religious wingnuts who wouldn't know the golden rule if it smacked them against their knuckles (probably because they were dragging on the ground to begin with). The vast majority of the unwashed Christian masses have probably never popped open a bible in their lives and have pretty much accepted the biblical messages spoonfed to them (selectively) as hate speech at their places of worship. Perhaps Obama's stance will encourage them to question the dogma they've been listening to all these years and really try to reach the core of Jesus's teachings about compassion, humanity, greed and salvation.

On the other hand, the lowest common denominators in society are coming out of the woodwork and are now being given a platform to preach their hateful bigotry. It is appalling that hate mongers like Tony Perkins, Maggie Gallagher and others of their ilk are being given any kind of voice in this debate, yet it's happening. It goes without saying that some will hear them and agree with them or solidify their pre-existing stances against equality. And anything can tip the balance in the battleground states.

I just don't know how this is going to play out. But in any case, I look forward to Obama giving a historic speech about human rights at the Democratic National Convention this summer.

[HejiraNYC]

I don't think media coverage like this is necessarily helping Obama... :facepalm:



Reading some of the comments on blogs today, I am completely *astonished* by the level of stupidity out there in America. There is a sizeable number of people who now believe that Obama is actually gay. smh!!

[jannieC]

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

I don't think media coverage like this is necessarily helping Obama... :facepalm:



Reading some of the comments on blogs today, I am completely *astonished* by the level of stupidity out there in America. There is a sizeable number of people who now believe that Obama is actually gay. smh!!

Seriously. SERIOUSLY? :facepalm: is right.

[TrueFaith77]

^^I don't know if Obama is gay or not (obviously). But there are is a rather vivid Internet mythology that proposes he is a bisexual freak. It's as compelling (and hilarious) as some shipperdom.

It's funny that he has come out with the same position as I have on this vote, yet he's lionized and I'm called "garbage." He believes it's an issue that should be decided by the states. If he considered it a Civil Rights issue, it would be unconscionable for a liberal to not think this is a matter of Federal jurisdiction. It would, essentially, be coming out on the side of State's Righters over Brown vs. Board. Like Obama, I'm sure, I believe that Bv.B is good law, is good Constitutional law, is right. This is an essentially Liberal perspective on my part and his. (I cite W.T. Lhamon's life-changing book DELIBERATE SPEED as my source for this reasoning.)

Like Obama, if given the opportunity to vote for this in the state of my residence, I would vote to include same-sex unions under the definition of "civil marriage."

Like Obama ALWAYS has, I would be against having the definition of marriage be cemented in the Constitution (thus, again, not a Civil Right).

Like Obama, I presume (at least officially), I do not think that those who oppose gay marriage are equivalent to the White Supremacists pictured here (gay people can't procreate; so the Satanic fear of miscegenation doesn't really analogize to my mind).

Unlike Obama, of course, I just don't believe in "Civil Marriages." (Admittedly, I may be wrong in how I've weighed the pros and cons of Civil Marriages--but I'm only one vote.)

[bluefox4000]

I'm not surprised. Call me a cynic but.....my god.....there's a lot of stupidity in the ole U.S

Mick

[Macfanforever]

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

I don't think media coverage like this is necessarily helping Obama... :facepalm:



Reading some of the comments on blogs today, I am completely *astonished* by the level of stupidity out there in America. There is a sizeable number of people who now believe that Obama is actually gay. smh!!

Wow .Thats a new one on the pres.

[KarmaContestant]

Originally Posted by TrueFaith77

It's funny that he has come out with the same position as I have on this vote, yet he's lionized and I'm called "garbage."

Well that's interesting. I re-read this entire thread and I really can't find one string of words you wrote that even sort-of implies that you and Obama share the same (or even remotely similar) position on this issue. I'd say most readers would walk away with the impression that you fall on the completely opposite end of the spectrum.



Just sayin'. Clearly - I, and others, misunderstood you.

[KarmaContestant]

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

I don't think media coverage like this is necessarily helping Obama... :facepalm:



Reading some of the comments on blogs today, I am completely *astonished* by the level of stupidity out there in America. There is a sizeable number of people who now believe that Obama is actually gay. smh!!

All I could think is "WTF!?!?"

And then I remembered - Bill Clinton was hailed as America's "first black President". I think this is supposed to be a similar sort of message, though it is poorly executed.

[TrueFaith77]

Originally Posted by KarmaContestant

Well that's interesting. I re-read this entire thread and I really can't find one string of words you wrote that even sort-of implies that you and Obama share the same (or even remotely similar) position on this issue. I'd say most readers would walk away with the impression that you fall on the completely opposite end of the spectrum.



Just sayin'. Clearly - I, and others, misunderstood you.

You mean this wasn't clear?

Originally Posted by TrueFaith77

I want it to be clear that I have not stated my opinion on this subject at all (i.e., I have not indicated how I would vote). My points were simply to explain that a) it doesn't take a bigot to think marriage is defined as being a union between a man and a woman and b) this is not Civil Rights issue, according to my understanding of the term (another analogy: if same-sex marriages were legalized, but effiminate men were excluded from participating in them (as was the case with establishments serving alcohol in NY), THEN it would be a Civil Rights issue). There are a lot of Civil Rights issues that are being neglected by elitist gays and their Gay Orthodoxy.

For the record and for the benefit of the rest of the board, since Civil "Marriages" exist, if put to a vote, I would vote to allow any two consenting adults to be "married." But, again, I'm only one vote. And I'm OK with that.

Obama agrees that it doesn't take a bigot to have the opposite opinion, he agrees that it's not a Civil Rights issue and that it should be decided at the State level, and he would vote for Civil Marriages to be expanded to include same-sex couples. Those are all the positions I stated in the above quoted post from 5/10.

ETA: I also re-read the thread and see that you had written this:

Originally Posted by KarmaContestant

I suppose that is the heart of our disagreement. I do see marriage for gays as a civil rights issue. It's okay by me that you don't.

So... you had noted that it was on that point that we disagreed, which means you recognized, at that time, that you and I and Obama agreed on most things, but that Obama and I disagreed with you re: whether it is a civil rights issue (which, by definition, deals with Constitutional law--and, thus, Federal jurisdiction, which both Obama and I feel it does not--and he's a Constitutional Lawyer, so....). So I'm confused as to where you "really can't find one string of words you wrote that even sort-of implies that you and Obama share the same (or even remotely similar) position on this issue," when you are the person who summarized my position (my "string of words")--and perfectly identified your difference with me & Obama--so succinctly.

[Ghost_Tracker]

I could be wrong of course but I think maybe I finally figured out what Obama is actually up to:

North Carolina helped Obama win last time. But - the failure of gay marriage to get approved in North Carolina means that he won't get those Electoral Votes there this time around. And so - - they had to go shopping.

I suspect the way the numbers pan out, in order to win this time, with the loss of N.C., Obama *must* win Ohio, Virginia, and -

Florida.

Well, aren't there a lot of gay persons in Florida? Especially in some of the Florida Keys? He's banking that the older voters there who might in general not like this will just stay home and gripe; whereas the gay and gay-friendly ones will come out and vote for him. There might be hope he can get Ohio again; for example I believe they do a lot of business with Detroit in terms of making car parts, etc. and Obama has received some credit for helping to rescue the auto industry. They can campaign heavily in Virginia and just hope - - -

and then Florida for the win.

It's a theory, anyway.