Shame on you, NC

[jannieC]

This situation is bad enough on its own without attacking one another on here.

[Sleepless-Child]

I wonder how would everyone react if someone came here and said "i'm a catholic and i am against gay marriage" (not that there's an analogy between those two, but for most of you, there apparently is)?
I wonder just who would then be open-minded, and who wouldn't, then, attack that person.
The truth is, you only hear what you want to hear.

[vivfox]

Originally Posted by markolas

We understand, TrueFaith77, we just think you' re a piece of garbage.

Speak for yourself. I think you should be banned for breaking a board rule by calling that poster a bad name.

[HomerMcvie]

Originally Posted by vivfox

Speak for yourself. I think you should be banned for breaking a board rule by calling that poster a bad name.

I second that. It was OVER the line.

[vivfox]

Originally Posted by markolas

How naive can you be? That piece of paper ensures that my partner and I aren't legal strangers, which has very real consequences for those of us who don't live in hippy dipshlt land.

And vivfox, please spare me anymore of your nonsense PMs about the status of my relationship. The last two were not appreciated in the least.

First of all, I haven't pm'd you in over 2 months and when I did it was a response to pm's you sent me. Secondly, if you didn't like what I had to say you should have told me so in a private pm, not in this thread where it doesn't belong. I can't even imagine what you were thinking by posting it here.

[BombaySapphire3]

Originally Posted by vivfox

Speak for yourself. I think you should be banned for breaking a board rule by calling that poster a bad name.

I don't think he cares as he seems to have left on his own volition after firing a few parting salvos.

[TrueFaith77]

I do care. I think he/she should be banned if that is against the board rules to call people "garbage." It has made me feel totally uncomfortable and feel as though this board is a hostile place. If we are allowed to call each other "garbage," then that is just the risk I take participating in this board--and I am likely to so less often. So it's up to the moderators.

[tilthefirefades]

Just to throw my 2 cents out there...I personally couldn't care less one way or the other. But I've never understood the thought to hinder rights in any way. What does one gain by taking them away? If there are gay couples out there that need a sheet of paper to validate their love, then have at it...it should be their right. I understand some feel it makes them equal, but in this regard, we are not equal. Gay couples are different from straight couples. Not that I believe marriage should be between any two people, but I just don't see the point in fighting restlessly over something that in the end will only cause disappointment and futile debate...at least in our day & age. Perhaps one day people will open their eyes and realize that gay people deserve everything that others get, but I don't know that I agree gay marriage should be defined by equality. Equality is a mentality, not a law. You can make all the laws you want, but until America as a whole agrees, there is no equality.

[sparky]

This is a very emotional issue for many people. And that is just the way the politicians like it.

Since Reagan, when the Republican party decided to harness evangelical Christians into the party and ultimately sold their soul to them, they have trotted out the twin issues of gays and abortion to fire up the unwashed and overchurched masses and get votes. It is the utmost in cynicism and a blatant emotional manipulation to gain power. But it is so basic. They are manipulating the uneducated and unsophisticated with emotion in order to garner their support. It is as simple as that.

But this country was not founded on emotion.

At the heart of this issue is logic. It is logical that all people should be able to love who they want, choose their mate, and live their lives unmolested by the government. That love affects no one but the parties involved. But logic and religion do not mix. I am not saying all religious people lack logic. But religion requires a disconnect with logic and that bridge is faith. Not everyone has it. And news alert! Not everyone in this country is Christian. And not every Christian buys the Bible as a historical document. So most Americans are on a lot of different pages. Most Christians I know look at the gay thing the way they do with all the silly Old Testament issues about shellfish and mixed fibers - it sounded good at the time and served some purpose but it doesn't anymore. Men wrote that book. Kings edited it. And trying to determine what a 2500 year old word really meant in that context when it had 3 different meanings is splitting hairs and hunting old camouflaged deer.
Enough on my theories about the Bible.

The bottom lines here are freedom and respect. There is so much brouhaha about the word marriage. And that is the hangup. I think it boils down to semantics. A vast majority of this country does believe that two women or two men in a relationship should be able to be in some kind of contract that affords the exact same legal protections and rights as a "marriage" but they are loathe to call it that. No one wants to see an evil family come in and take the home of a surviving partner because the law does not see them as related. That is cruel and punitive and violates all standards of decency. The problem is those same people think that civil unions or domestic partnerships will prevent that and they afford all the same protections as a marriage.

THEY DO NOT.

There is not a simple way to fix that problem. It would be simple, if people didn't have such an emotional and religious connection to the word marriage. But they do.
And I kind of understand it. It may be a generational thing. I never once thought I would "marry" another man, except as a joke. In my mind marriage actually does imply a man a woman. A man and a wife. And a truckload of gender specific BS about roles and behavior. We were shown Alvin Toffler's movie "Future Shock" when I was in grade school and there was a same sex marriage in it. Everyone snickered. I was horrified. Who was the bride? Who was the groom? I have since learned that Yes Virginia, there doesn't have to be a Man and a Wife or a Top and a Bottom. Two men can be together and that doesn't mean one is a Woman or has to sacrifice his masculinity.

I still remember Leave It To Beaver and Donna Reed. And I am as gay as Adam Lambert's leather jacket. I never once pictured marrying another man. Living with? Sure. Spending my life with? Maybe. Getting married? Marriage? Please. The very idea has always looked and smelled like misery. Suburban birthday party-screaming kid-miserable nagging wife-regretful sexually frustrated husband-midlife divorced-shattered dream-diverted goal- sacrifice your independence and identity hell in a big bow made by Target. No thanks. I know enough miserable married and divorced straight people who don't like either their spouses or if you can get get them drunk enough to admit it, their own children or their very lives.

So I was never sold on marriage.

However, if I ever did find a dude I wanted to commit to and spend my life with, I would want the process of making sure the legalities are binding to be as smooth and seamless as any str8 couple who landed in the Elvis chapel and decided to take the jump (yes I am talking to YOU, Britney). With all the risks and heartache that entails. If I die, he gets everything, if I am sick, he calls the shots, he gets on my insurance, I get on his, he gets my pension and vice versa. I pay my taxes. I am a law abiding citizen (mostly), and I should have that right. Call it marriage, call it a union, call it whatever the hell you want. It should be identical to a wedding between opposite sex people. Marriage isn't all about babies. Infertile people can get married. 80 year olds can married. A commitment is a commitment. And that kind of love is of the same substance. And btw I am not making any babies and pay a boatload of taxes and am not burdening the system with more people. I am a net gain. In the final analysis I am a huge bonus to the economy. And that allows me to dedicate 60+ hours a week to create ridiculous entertainment for everyone to distract themselves with and that time given to my career is not depriving anyone of a Daddy. So yippee for me and everyone else. I give more than I take to this economy and this country and I suspect that is true for most gay men.

And to those who say all people have the same marriage rights - you can marry anyone of the opposite sex like anyone else! Do you even hear yourself? Do you have the ability to imagine a life where you have no sexual and emotional attraction to the opposite sex? Can you imagine being forced to lie to someone your entire life and force yourself to have sex with them when the very idea and experience repels you on the cellular level? Imagine having to sleep with someone of the same sex every night for the rest of your life and put out. And pretend you like it. Walk a mile in a homo's shoes. Walk a minute. Just think of how much damage that does to everyone involved. The spouse, the kids, and all the extended family. People who are attracted to the same sex should lie and then destroy the lives of everyone they touch? And bear the burden of that damage? Or maybe just live their entire lives devoid of human intimacy and companionship? Just because you believe in some ancient book some men wrote up 2000 years ago and you choose to believe in it and follow it's often edited and suspiciously interpreted language? You take that as a legal document and demand a country follow it as a doctrine?

Anyone who would even imply that exhibits a spirit so cruel, and so inhumane, that I can hardly imagine what goes on in their minds. That is a subhuman statement to make. It denies the fact that all people are different and that there is a range of human experience, and implies that love of one kind trumps another. And do not toss that "People will be marrying their dogs and children" foolery into the mix. This is about people's humanity and their ability to love and find joy in companionship. Get off that missionary position only train and marriage exists for procreation only bandwagon for a minute and actually use your brain. There are other ways to live. Not everyone demands to live in a world where everyone's lives must look exactly the same or be subject to attack and destruction.

Should all marriages be annulled at infertility or menopause? I often wonder if the people who hoot about this whole "sex is for procreation only" concept ever kiss. Kissing doesn't make a baby. Hugging doesn't either. God knows oral sex doesn't. And for the benefit of wives everywhere, even the evangelicals, I hope that isn't off the table. And don't even mention anal. Something like 50% married couples do that. If marriage is only for procreation, then I suppose no other physical contact other than that which achieves fertilization should be allowed. All of a sudden the Mormon underwear starts to make sense. Perhaps full body shields with access holes are the answer. Those Mormon underwear really need to cover mouths though, because kissing doesn't make babies.

In conclusion, I still don't know if I would every want to be "married" to another guy and make that leap of commitment to another human being. But in this country, in this year, with our constitution, how dare anyone say I can't?

How dare they even suggest it?

This country was created on the concept of freedom. Get the hell off mine.

[GypsySorcerer]

^^^^ I've missed you, Sparky. Come around here more often, 'kay?

[vivfox]

Sparky, that was absolutely brilliant. Brilliant is your color babe.

[KarmaContestant]

Originally Posted by vivfox

Speak for yourself. I think you should be banned for breaking a board rule by calling that poster a bad name.

Originally Posted by HomerMcvie

I second that. It was OVER the line.

Originally Posted by TrueFaith77

I do care. I think he/she should be banned if that is against the board rules to call people "garbage." It has made me feel totally uncomfortable and feel as though this board is a hostile place.

We are in a period of time where there is a national debate over equal marriage rights for gay and lesbian couples, but I have no doubt that full marriage equality is coming, and it's coming soon. It is inevitable that some people will fall on the wrong side of this debate, so to speak, and years from now others may very well look back and wonder how in the world anyone could have been opposed to marriage equality.

The notion that only heterosexual couples could marry will seem ludicrous, I have no doubt whatsoever.

Because it's a current issue and many are apprehensive about change, feelings run deep and tensions are high - but the fact remains that for some people, anyone who disagrees with marriage equality may very well be considered "garbage". Is it kind of harsh? Maybe. Should that opinion be kept to oneself? Perhaps. But for some of us - myself included - this issue of gay marriage is as critical as any other civil rights issue, and I doubt any one of us would have a problem with a board member calling an advocate of white supremacy garbage - or calling a mysogynist who was posting about the inferiority of women garbage, regardless of the rules. If a member of this board were on here posting about how our soldiers were being killed in combat, or that a U.S. city was devastated by a natural disaster because America is too liberal towards gays and God hates fags, would anyone *truly* care if another member called them garbage? You may say yes out of political correctness, but I wouldn't believe you.

It's all relative to me. As any gay person can testify, the world we live in isn't always a nice place to be.

[HejiraNYC]

Originally Posted by KarmaContestant

The notion that only heterosexual couples could marry will seem ludicrous, I have no doubt whatsoever.

[KarmaContestant]

"Race mixing is Communism."

[HomerMcvie]

Originally Posted by KarmaContestant

We are in a period of time where there is a national debate over equal marriage rights for gay and lesbian couples, but I have no doubt that full marriage equality is coming, and it's coming soon. It is inevitable that some people will fall on the wrong side of this debate, so to speak, and years from now others may very well look back and wonder how in the world anyone could have been opposed to marriage equality.

The notion that only heterosexual couples could marry will seem ludicrous, I have no doubt whatsoever.

Because it's a current issue and many are apprehensive about change, feelings run deep and tensions are high - but the fact remains that for some people, anyone who disagrees with marriage equality may very well be considered "garbage". Is it kind of harsh? Maybe. Should that opinion be kept to oneself? Perhaps. But for some of us - myself included - this issue of gay marriage is as critical as any other civil rights issue, and I doubt any one of us would have a problem with a board member calling an advocate of white supremacy garbage - or calling a mysogynist who was posting about the inferiority of women garbage, regardless of the rules. If a member of this board were on here posting about how our soldiers were being killed in combat, or that a U.S. city was devastated by a natural disaster because America is too liberal towards gays and God hates fags, would anyone *truly* care if another member called them garbage? You may say yes out of political correctness, but I wouldn't believe you.

It's all relative to me. As any gay person can testify, the world we live in isn't always a nice place to be.

But this is a FORUM. Debates are all part of it. If your own(not you) view of the world is so myopic that you can't TOLERATE any opinion, other than your own, then you probably shouldn't participate.

#doesn'tplaywellwithothers