[face of glass]

The usual apologies to everyone. Once again I haven’t been reading the board for several days. Let’s hope this is the final inclusion of the sort into the thread.
I believe it’s this sentence that has seemingly bothered some of you:

Originally posted by face of glass
On that particular day in September 2001 he must have thought along the lines of “I told you so”, like a significant amount of European newspapers did.

I agree I went way too far there. The thing Nancy spoke about later happened there; I was “projecting my own views of 9-11 onto Lindsey.” And I was way too blunt also. The only things I know of LB’s political orientation are the few I’ve read from the BuckinghamNicks.net message board and even those must have become distorted in my head. So I’m sorry for writing that. That’s the reason why I have that particular signature these days; I need to keep my head straight amidst all my speculation. This time I didn’t succeed in it. I stand behind everything else though.

Originally posted by CarneVaca
The man has said these songs are some of her best stuff yet (an assessment with which I disagree) so let's take him at his word, at least on this.

A) Lindsey may think so but would it necessarily prevent him from inserting shades of other emotions into them? Would he treat them as “sacred” and leave them untouched? Listening to the demos of “Thrown Down” and “Not Make Believe”; I think he wouldn’t.
B) Show me an artist who doesn’t tell the media that “our latest work is the best work we’ve ever done”.

Originally posted by Bella Figura
but it is not right to mock even one death...no matter what your politically motivation but it is right to be shocked, dismayed and to feel the heartache.

I never said he was trying to mock the event itself (or any particular death); he was just providing us with an alternative reaction to Stevie’s lyric. Stevie didn’t write the all-encompassing take on 9-11 (and I’m sure no one is capable of that), she wrote her own interpretation of it. If you think “Illume” is beyond criticism as the most adequate take on the whole tragedy, then you and I aren’t on the same wavelength. And I still find the song moving, I share very little of CarneVaca’s criticism on Stevie’s lyrics.

Originally posted by Bella Figura
btw, just curious, what's the death toll from terrorist attacks in Finland???

Seven, indirectly. Some guy went into a supermarket exactly thirteen months after the whole 9-11 thing (at least, the media doubling in September 2002 was probably a partial influence) and blew himself up along with innocent people. Of course nothing like that is big news in there; here it shocked many. Let me just tell you, however, that no one here (except for the most obstinate communists) had the “I told you so” reaction immediately after the whole 9-11; those started surfacing about a week after the crashes.

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Non sequitur: Speaking of death, war and Fins. I recently saw the movie Cuckoo, which is Finnish. Brilliant. Check it out.

I know it probably seems like the two countries are inseparable from the good ol’ USA, but that’s a Russian movie you mentioned, even though one of the main characters is a Finnish sniper played by a Finn.

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
”Illumé”

Just an aside: I’ve seen you type the title that way a few times before. Are you hinting at the way Stevie pronounces the word during the song?

Originally posted by sodascouts
I said this on the BuckinghamNicks.net board in response to Gaius' post - using the voices to mock Stevie as well as anyone feeling extreme grief for the victims of 911 would be appalling and, from the above quote, he feels that grief as well. I can't imagine where ANYONE would get the idea he thinks that the sentiment is one to be mocked - unless he/she were projecting his/her own ideas about 911 onto Lindsey.

You’re right in that I can’t prove he wanted to mock Stevie’s lyrics deliberately. That’s the impression I got, however, and it was weird at first to hear such a choice in a song like that. Even you, as you said on your board, got that impression at first but obviously you didn’t want to cling to it. It’s impossible to say objectively whether there’s a sarcastic tone used or not as the interpretations would vary depending on the listener. For me it is one though.

I was thinking of that LB quote too when I wrote my thoughts on “Illume” into this thread. I have no reason to doubt that he felt very shocked that day. If he didn’t, then he’d obviously be one of these intellectuals who oppose to these things only because they want to be “different”. I also believe he fully shares (or shared) Stevie’s grief. However, that does not prevent him from taking an alternative view.

For the record: I agree with Dissention’s take on “Illume” completely, especially “of it's constraint of being about only one persons feelings”. That’s a flaw in Stevie’s writing occasionally; for the uninitiated it can come off as pieces of a personal world that might seem far too esoteric at first. Her producers capable of wrapping these pieces up into something that the casual listeners can also find appealing, they’re capable of colouring Stevie’s images into something more attractive. Especially Lindsey. He’s not afraid of bringing in these “alternate views”, through his own voice or his production.

So, is he mocking Stevie then, like many kids in the schoolyard used to mock something someone was saying with a funny voice? Nah, not that blatantly. If he shares Stevie’s grief, it’s not necessarily Stevie and her emotions that he’s mocking, he could be poking at himself for his own reaction. If Stevie wrote “Illume” directly after the events and didn’t do any editing on it, then it is natural that she wouldn’t be capable of taking on a point of view other than her own. However, it was different when LB received the song way after the tragedy and obviously worked on it for a long period of time. He could already take some distance to it, he could ruminate on the topic instead of being completely crushed by emotions. In short, he wanted to reflect on other possible interpretations of the tragedy, not just the Nicksian grief. For “Illume” is a very one-sided song; Stevie has only inserted grief in there (which she subtly varies, though). But since Lindsey has started to act as a sonic painter of sorts; someone who doesn’t just spurt a single emotion on the canvas but uses several intersecting ones at the same time, then it’s understandable for him to put something like that in “Illume” too. It is there in his own songs, along with this self-ridicule; “Come” is basically a parody of male aggression (which I’m sure is not unfamiliar to him) which he crosses with the verses that sound like the confessions of an obsessive lunatic, “Family Man” is LB laughing at his disability to write a good lyric (up to that point, at least) through the various voice manipulation while setting the tune to harmless ‘80s backing music. So, if he can do this with his own songs, why can’t he do it with Stevie’s too? For me saying that “Illume” is just a “simple” song about sadness/grief after LB’s treatment is the same as saying that “Say Goodbye” is just Lindsey waxing nostalgic after a love affair. There’s so much more other things that he adds into these songs.

The problem that people are having with my suggestion is probably that someone who mocks a serious song about a tragedy seems like a cruel person. That someone would have the guts to make an open joke about a tragedy. I don’t think there is that obvious a joke in the song; otherwise I wouldn’t be alone in my position. It is a subtle joke, not something that seems to underestimate the lyric. It’s just something that deflates the imagery a bit; it’s not the history of the world Stevie is talking about in there, it’s her own story.

Is the using of those voices humorous? For me it is partially; although it’s humour that’s born out of the unlikelihood of something like that happening in a song that’s supposed to be full of sadness. It doesn’t make me laugh directly or anything like that. It serves as a necessary reminder to the mourner; life isn’t all centred around you and there’s people who just won’t care for what you feel. You’re just a drop in an ocean. It’s an intellectual thing, of course, something that one can only come up with after the tragedy, but no less valid an expression than anything Stevie is doing.

I don’t know. I guess I’m just a bit bothered by the fact that there’s this common opinion in our society of grief and what it should be like. These days, after an event that shocks the nation, you’re just not supposed to be showing any other emotion besides pure mourning. Anything else, even a variant of that, and then you’re a freak. For me there’s always been so much other things involved in it; cynicism, anger, depression and yes, even sarcasm. That’s what Lindsey reflects on. We may watch all these funerals and tragedies from the TV every year but even then it’s usually because of voyeurism. You never see anyone showing true “negative” emotions in public and that’s obviously because most people wouldn’t bear to watch it. LB is not afraid of recognizing these things in people though.

I refuse to believe that Lindsey was “cheapening the message of the song” with those voices. He was just trying to give us a glimpse of something else. It’s easy to wrap oneself in mourning and stay in that state for a long time. These people usually dismiss humour as escapism. For me humour, the like of which is in “Illume” too, is not about pushing away one’s problems and fears. It an ability to look at yourself from a larger perspective; the fears won’t crush you then.

“Illume” may have been written as a direct response to what was happening all around Stevie but the fact that she apparently didn’t alter the message of the song when recording it with Fleetwood Mac proves that she didn’t want to express anything other than grief. Such a song, hell, even the original Stevie demo would have been an understandable release if it had been put out at the tail end of 2001. I have no reason to believe that Lindsey would have wanted to do something that would alter the atmosphere so significantly that quick. He shared her grief, as we admit. However, in time your perspectives are bound to change and you will start seeing other sides of the matter. Which is what happened to Lindsey too, and he wanted to communicate that through music and the lyrical repetition. And especially the tones he chose to use.

Originally posted by sodascouts
Instead, I think Lindsey was once again trying to be "cool" and "different" by manipulating the voices and it backfired.

And I don’t share this view with you either. It isn’t just a case of replicating “Madonna circa 1995”, it’s such an obvious a deviation from the overall atmosphere of the song that it has to represent something else. Whether it’s the fear and confusion of all those people on that day or just “mere sarcasm”, depends on the interpreter.

In the end, Nancy, I think you sometimes underestimate Lindsey’s sonic paintings; the different feelings they can evoke and the musical quotations he makes. I think those could be used as a basis for interesting song interpretations too, along with the lyrics. Of course that stuff might be more vague than whatever Stevie’s giving you to work with, but I’m sure that in many cases the results wouldn’t be that much more nebulous than what some of the reader comments at your site are.

Another necessary disclaimer: This is all just my humble opinion! But I guess most of you knew that already.