[face of glass]

Late, later, the latest. That’s the story of my life on these boards. Please don’t mind the occasional weirdness, this was mainly written during night.

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
The only "argument" I have with that statement, is that... out of about 113 Nicks-penned songs that have been officially released with Fleetwood Mac, on a solo album, or on a soundtrack or b-side, Lindsey only has production credit on 21 of those (10 of those being the 'SYW' tracks, and not counting "Seven Wonders," which Stevie only added some lyrics to). Of course, we should probably credit him for at least arranging the 'Buckingham Nicks' tracks, as well as "Rhiannon" and "Landslide," and I'm sure he had more than just a little input on the 'Rumours' tracks (despite the lack of a production credit)... but Lindsey is definitely not the "only one who knows what to do with Stevie's songs," as is often implied.

If it seems that I have implied so in this thread, then I have to apologize. I guess I’ve been looking at the whole thing through Buckingham-filled spectacles (I wonder if Stevie uses those too). Let it be stated now: I love Bella Donna and The Wild Heart; I like Rock A Little, The Other Side Of The Mirror, Trouble In Shangri-La and even Street Angel. No, I do not consider them the greatest albums in the history of the universe but I do have tolerance to Stevie’s approach, to the point where I can honestly say that I do not actively dislike any track on any album. Yes, I do think that all of them have their amount of monotonousness; on Street Angel it gets to the point where I can’t even begin to discern the majority of songs from each other. And yes, I do think that every album could use a bit of that diversity that Lindsey gives Stevie through his production. But that’s just a minor complaint.

What I feel that producers other than Lindsey are doing is just picking up the crumbs from a table where he just feasted. They are building on what he helped to create, and for me at least, the results seem secondary when compared to “the real thing”. You have to consider the circumstances though.

In the ‘70s female singer-songwriters who were dealing with these “feminine, romantic topics” were basically all given the same production (except for those who had the reins in their own hands, like Joni Mitchell); you usually slapped on a piano, an acoustic guitar and a bunch of strings and that was that. That was the producers’ idea of romance at the time. Then enter Lindsey Buckingham. What Lindsey, Ken and Richard basically did was show to the world that you can convey a sense of romance through other measures too. This style starts in earnest on “Dreams” and runs through Stevie’s Tusk songs. It’s a non-conformist style that does not fail to sell but doesn’t bow to the mainstream; it’s not dependent on what’s going on around it. Enter part two of the story:

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
Keith Olsen, Richard Dashut, Ken Caillat, Jimmy Iovine (my favorite of anyone who's produced Stevie's music), Rick Nowels, Mike Campbell, John Shanks, and others, have definitely added wonderful touches to many of Stevie's songs over the years... though I'm most definitely not belittling Lindsey's contributions.

So there it is. Suddenly Lindsey’s no longer in control; there’s this Jimmy Iovine guy who’s going to bring in a great band and give Stevie her music back. I have to agree with you somehow Johnny, Mr. Iovine is my favourite Stevie solo producer too. If what David told us earlier in another thread is true: that Jimmy was a very laissez-faire producer in that he let the band work on the songs throughout the whole arranging/recording period, then it’s simply a different approach to Lindsey’s.

Yet I still get the feeling that no matter how great work there is on Bella Donna and The Wild Heart, it would be even greater if Buckingham was let to leave his stamp on them. And it’s just not on the likes of “Outside The Rain” (which most people cite as the most FM-like song on the album). Stuff like “Leather And Lace”, “After The Glitter Fades” and “The Highwayman” come off as too routine and safe sounding; as if Stevie was trying to make herself appealing to the country radio. Compare those to something like “That’s Alright” where the chorus sounds like a grasp of ethereality from heavens and beyond and you’ll see what I mean. In concert a song like “Edge Of Seventeen” could have been a showcase for Stevie on the level of “Rhiannon” and “Sisters Of The Moon” if there had been a partner who would be willing to be the equal of Stevie’s vocal intensity with a guitar; namely Buckingham. Don’t get me wrong; I love the song. But there’s certain areas where Stevie’s unwilling to go if Lindsey’s not there with her. I guess that’s a bit beside the point though.

Jimmy had also the good fortune of producing some of Stevie’s best songs. She had some of those ‘70s “rejects” (rejects? Fools!) to give him and add to that the fact that her basic songwriting still hadn’t lost its freshness, that she was capable of writing material that would possibly interest a larger audience (than a group of hardcore fans) up to The Wild Heart was important in building her a significant following. Of course she and Jimmy were still leaning on the groundwork that came from Buckingham, Caillat and Dashut but they were also establishing a new audience; a bunch of Nicksheads that didn’t want to hear anything of Fleetwood Mac (although I have no idea how sizeable this group is).

Yet they were still following a mainstreamish path. Danny Goldberg may claim in the booklet of Enchanted that Stevie’s solo work was “artsy-craftsy, not muscular commercial music like Fleetwood Mac’s”, but for me it’s always been the opposite. I’m not denying the shades of mainstream on Fleetwood Mac’s albums but for me Lindsey has always walked the plank between the experimental and the commercial. He’s been more daring in his production than Jimmy Iovine and others. You may claim that doing “epics” like the title tracks on Stevie’s two first solo albums took some nerve but I might as well claim that they had the nerve to do those tracks because they were doing an entire album, not a collection of hit singles (or 2-5 tracks, as on Fleetwood Mac albums) where you would have to make sure that every track is commercially appealing. I mean, take a look at how similar those two albums are. The Wild Heart is essentially a repetition of Bella Donna with some synths slapped on (because the times demanded it; everyone at that point had converted to synthesizers. Thanks a lot, new wave); both begin with a long “epic” (why, they’re both also the title tracks! How come!), stuff like “Gate And Garden” and “How Still My Love” are practically interchangeable (for someone who doesn’t hear the subtle differences anyway), “Stand Back” has the same foundation to it as “Edge Of Seventeen” does (that little “sixteenth-note” thing that Waddy plays with the guitar constantly during “EO17” is too similar to the one that’s played on the keyboards in “Stand Back”), the synthesizers on “If Anyone Falls” do not add anything significant to it that wasn’t already there on Bella Donna, etc. It’s a bunch of people following almost the same approach two years later.

Buckingham’s quirks aren’t present on either of these and that’s a drawback for me (even though they do an admirable job in almost covering it up). The tracks set almost similar atmospheres throughout. At least Lindsey, when he re-uses something, uses the recycled idea in a new context. Lindsey’s shadow is still there looming on these two albums (on places where his influence is heard and where it can’t be heard = the most mainstream tracks; surely they didn’t want to sound like Buckingham all the time); hell, “Sable On Blond” is basically “Gypsy” all over again.
Sure, they’re adding synthesizers into the picture but that was something that the mainstream told them to do. They certainly didn’t want to appear as “non-modernistic” or anything like that. “I Can’t Wait”, for all its goodness, sounds like a typical ‘80s Fairlight experiment. Compare that to the approach of Go Insane where the Fairlight is used in an untrivial way. Yes, both approaches may sound dated today but Lindsey’s work on that album is more reminiscent of what Kate Bush and Laurie Anderson were doing at the time than whatever the “powers-to-be” in the music industry said was hip.

Then enter Rupert Hine. Sure, he’s creating this aura of romanticism too and it is a different kind of romanticism. It’s not like what Lindsey was doing on Tango In The Night. So what is it then? Loads of mainstream ‘80s production again. Generic, non-intrusive saxophone solos. Acoustic, “Spanish”-sounding guitars (come on, the guitar in “Family Man” is at least playful and quirky, these sound like they’re inviting you to Santa Barbara). In short, the usual deal, even worse this time. And I still like the album. Goes to show how much respect I have for Stevie.

Hello Street Angel. Oh, you’re a much maligned creature, even though you’re not that much weaker than the others. Now what do you have in there? Very little synthesizers? Something that at least sounds like a real band? Hooray! But oh, wait, it seems like your songs mostly sound the same. No great production and arrangement work has gone into you and it seems like the band isn’t that inspired either. Oh, the songs aren’t as inspired as on Bella Donna either. That explains why this particular approach isn’t working the fourth time around.

And so it goes, in comes Mr. John Shanks. Now we all know TISL very well at this point and I would have to say that right after Lindsey Buckingham and Jimmy Iovine Shanks would be the next in line for me. Who cares about those suspected Pro Tools or that the album sounds a bit too mainstreamish again; Stevie sounds good there and there’s enough arrangement details so that I can separate the songs from each other. There’s one small problem though and that’s something that other people, including veterans like ChiliD have noticed too; Shanks’ style on this album is essentially an imitation of a Lindsey production, except on places where it once again sounds way too mainstream. I can’t deny it myself either and I can’t escape from thinking how much better the thing would sound in Lindsey’s hands. I even find myself escaping to the original demos of “Sorcerer” (because what could replace those valuable Buckingham vocals?) and “Planets Of The Universe” (take that technophilia off from the final take!).

So there you have it. That’s why I still prefer Lindsey to any other Stevie’s producer. This is not to underestimate the contributions of the producers or Waddy or Sharon (& other vocalists) or whoever but I think that certain sides of Stevie come out only when she’s working with Lindsey. It shows right there in the way he wraps his guitars onto a Nickssong so that it becomes difficult (for me, at least) to imagine that there’s some other kind of approach. It’s also there in his singing and how he cleverly inserts his voice into Stevie’s work; he knows the reactions that their two voices still generate. Above all, it still creates this network of emotions that’s definitely alone-standing in the world of rock music.

I haven’t tried to suggest here that Stevie should solely work with LB or that she should not do another solo album. I’ve only tried to explain why I prefer Lindsey to any other producer of Nicks that there is. If Lindsey’s the perfectionist he’s reputed to be in the studio, then I see no problem with Stevie doing a solo album including all the usual hubbub that comes along with it. But neither do I think that anyone will ever come and match Buckingham’s impact on Nicks’ music and life; that’s what you wanted to hear you romantics!

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
But in my opinion... regarding Stevie, or any songwriter... I'm always going to give 70/30 credit, with the songwriter first, and the producer second, as the producer is only really embellishing what's already there (in my opinion).

Opinion understood. Of course you’re speaking as someone for whom the lyrics are an integral part of music. I’ve explained this several times: lyrics don’t hold that much value for me (it’s not that difficult to write lyrics that are adequate to the piece, or something that’s thoroughly incomprehensible and thus the message wouldn’t matter), that’s why I’m prone to give more credit to those who are responsible of the actual music. When there’s this “hi-jacking” going on; large atmospheric shifts that happen when Lindsey takes a particular Stevie song into his gloves, my appreciation for the arranger will be even bigger. Like David once quoted, it’s “magnificent castles of sound built out of seemingly thin air”. But I guess it doesn’t matter how we put the ratio here; Stevie’s performance is always crucial to the success of a song. And we all love these songs in the end.

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
At any rate, I'm still chuckling over the fact that, nearly 17 years after its release, we're still having multi-page debates about "When I See You Again."

That’s how it tends to be with works of art where self-parody and seriousness go together hand in hand. Note though, I still appreciate the song, like I appreciate “Family Man” which is another self-parody that deserves a book written about it.

Originally posted by darklinensuit
I agree, and IMO some folks rely too much on that Christine quote about Lindsey fixing Dreams.

It’s not just a single quote that I’m basing this on; it’s by comparing Stevie’s demos to the final products and by intent listening on Lindsey’s playing that leads into this. For me “Dreams” is musically all about that guitar and those harmonies. One of the message boards I like to visit on is a board where people discuss all kinds of music. Occasionally there’s a discussion on FM; a while ago they were talking about “Dreams” and how the track seems to have no immediately grappling musical hook on it (as you can guess, there’s no FM fans on that board; I wonder if they have anything else than Rumours anyway). They came to the conclusion that the track relies on subtle little things: how darn sexy Stevie sounds on it, how the minimal groove of Mick and John contributes a lot to the final track, etc. They praised the guitar and the harmonies especially. No one commended on Stevie’s basic songwriting. It just proves to me that you can go from very rough beginnings to something so great that even former musical snobs would feel the significance.

Originally posted by EricBliss12345
I was in no way trying to stir **** when I said Lindsey let her make an ass out of herself. Do you really think none of the other band members winced when they heard that vocal track play back? I really thought I was giving a well thought out and balanced opinion there! That's the best I can do!

No problem there Eric; I overreacted myself and apologize for that. Your comment just seemed to me to be playing around with the stereotype of Lindsey being this “dominative ego-feeding idiot” who around the time of TITN sessions didn’t want to support Stevie because of emotional problems or whatever. Basically it would be the same if I went to the pre-Rumours board and started talking about Bob Welch being the biggest stoned-out hippie whose writing is always the same because of a brain atrophy (compare 'HOW-many-PEOple-SIT-home-at-NIGHT...' with 'And ALL of the THINGS that I SAID that I WANted'). Mind you, I wouldn’t do that because I respect Bob deeply. Anyone who creates an album like The Other One can always have a pint or two in my household.