The Ledge - GRRR Stupid Boy Scouts!!!

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GRRR Stupid Boy Scouts!!!

apparently you must profess a belief in God, and attend some sort of service or you cant join or advance in rank. they dont recognize the Wiccan Way either.

Im really pissed right now because my son wants to join but I'll be DAMNED if I'll let the Religious Fundies force me or my boy to attend an organized religious service. and just in case anyone doubts their position:

Quote:

All levels of advancement in the Scouting program have requirements recognizing “duty to God”:

● Bobcat Cub Scout
A boy is required to promise to do his best to do his “duty to God,” which means “Put God first. Do what you know God wants you to do.” (seems harmless right?)

● Wolf Cub Scout
A boy is required to “[t]alk with your folks about what they believe is their duty to God,” “[g]ive some ideas on how you can practice or demonstrate your religious beliefs,” and “[f]ind out how you can help your church, synagogue, or religious fellowship.” (unless your church isnt recognized by BSA...then what?)

● Bear Cub Scout
A boy is required to “[p]ractice your religion as you are taught in your home, church, synagogue, mosque, or other religious community” or “[e]arn the religious emblem of your faith.” (see below)

● Webelos Scout
A boy is required to either “[e]arn the religious emblem of your faith” or do two of the following:

“Attend the church, synagogue, mosque, or other religious organization of your choice, talk with your religious leader about your beliefs, and tell your family and Webelos den leader about what you learned.”;

“Tell how your religious beliefs fit in with the Scout Oath and Scout Law, Discuss this with your family and Webelos den leader: What character-building traits do your beliefs and the Scout Oath and Scout Law have in common?”;

“With your religious leader, discuss and write down two things you think will help you draw nearer to God. Do these things.”;

“Pray to God or meditate reverently each day as taught by your family, and by your church, synagogue, or religious group. Do this for at least one month.”;

“Under the direction of your religious leader, do an act of service for someone else. Talk about your service with your family and Webelos den leader. Tell them how it made you feel.”; or

“List at least two ways you believe you have lived according to your religious beliefs.”

and they dont recognize Wiccan religious symbols (for example, the Hart and Crescent--

Quote:

Question: since AA talks about a higher power, are they a religious organization? I gotta wonder how that would play in the press.

Answer: Yes, they are. Courts in several states have ruled that AA attendance can't be mandatory precisely because they are a religious organization, because of that bit about a "higher power" (AA isn't the only game in town, and their success rate isn't very good anyway). Courts can mandate alcohol treatment, but they can't mandate theistic alcohol treatment.

The BSA has refused to recognize a Wiccan religious award (the Hart and Crescent) apparently because they don't like that religion.

taken from Are the Boy Scouts a Religion?

And here is a court case they lost (check out the last sentence--this is from the BSA legal issues site):

Quote:

● Barnes-Wallace v. Boy Scouts of America, 275 F. Supp. 2d 1259 (S.D. Cal. 2003) The City of San Diego has established policies for leasing City property to nonprofit groups which benefit the community. Other lessees include the Girl Scouts, the Salvation Army, a Jewish Community Center, and Presbyterian churches, among dozens of other community organizations. Still other groups receive money subsidies from the City, although Boy Scouts does not. Nevertheless, the District Court held that the lease to Boy Scouts violated the Establishment Clause because the City did not seek non-religious bidders to compete for the lease. The effect of the decision is to discriminate against Boy Scouts for believing in God.

there's more believe me...Im just outraged that the Fundies have taken over this hallowed American Organization. I know it wasnt like this when my Brother was a member...and to show Im not Bull****ting ya:

Quote:

Hey, the Boy Scouts USED to be a public accommodation until they got taken over by theists. Shoot I got my Religion merit badge with a project that basically said the only viable religion was Deism signed off by a Baptist minister.

What happened is the BSA went before the highest court of the land and claimed they had become a private religious organization and by doing so they voluntarily closed a number doors that are open to public accommodations. A federal agency CAN'T sponsor a private discriminatory religious youth group anymore than they could a chapter of DeMoley or the KKK Youth. Civil municipalities operate under the same rules usually. The BSA tossed all these options away because THEY changed and they became something they hadn't been in the past.

Any price they pay is the result of their own actions and of their own choice. Private religious organizations shouldn't expect to get special deals from civic governments.

Posted by: BobVB at February 19, 2006 08:59 PM

more by BobVB:

Quote:

As long as the BSA has a religious test for participation they ARE a religious organization be definition! This isn't about an 'acknowledgement' of God', the YMCA has that - but they REQUIRE a belief in God for participation -that they clearly confirmed this by their own statements before the Supreme Court of the United States is just icing on the cake.

(all these blog posts are found on the above link should anyone care to read the whole page, I must say its pretty enlightening...)

http://www.bsalegal.org/faqs-113.htm

Frequently Asked Questions

On this page we will answer the questions most frequently asked about Boy Scouts' legal issues, from its views and policies to individual cases. In the coming days we will add new sections dealing with current and past cases.

Q. Can an individual who states that he does not believe in God be a volunteer Scout leader or member?

A. No. The Scout Oath represents the basic values of Scouting, and it addresses the issue of “duty to God” before duty to country, others, and self.

Q. Why is duty to God important to Scouting?

A. Since its founding in the United States in 1910, the Boy Scouts of America has had an ongoing commitment to encouraging moral, ethical and spiritual growth. The Boy Scouts of America believes that the principles set forth in the Scout Oath and Law are central to Boy Scouts’ goals.

Q. What harm would come of admitting young people who are unwilling to do their duty to God?

A. The Scout Oath and Law have served as the foundation of Scouting for 94 years. It would be a disservice to over five million youth and adult members of Scouting to allow members to pick and choose among the elements of the Oath or Law.

Q. How does the Boy Scouts of America define religion?

A. Boy Scouts of America is not a religion; it is a nonsectarian association of persons who believe in God. The Declaration of Religious Principle describes God in a broadly interfaith way as “the ruling and leading power in the universe” to whom we are grateful for “favors and blessings.”

Q. What religions are involved with Scouting?

A. Virtually every religion is represented in the Boy Scouts of America, from Catholics and Protestants, to the Armenian Church of America and Zoroastrians. The Religious Relationships Committee, which includes over 30 religious groups represented in Scouting, determines whether a religion is an appropriate partner for Scouting, and reviews any “duty to God” material which is to be used in Scouting for consistency with Boy Scout policies.

Q. What allows the Boy Scouts of America to exclude atheists and agnostics from membership?

A. The Boy Scouts of America is a private membership group. As with any private organization, Boy Scouts’ retains the constitutional right to establish and maintain standards for membership. Anyone who supports the values of Scouting and meets these standards is welcome to join the organization.

Q. Don't Boy Scouts discriminate against gays and atheists?

A. Boy Scouts of America is one of the most diverse youth groups in the country, serving boys of every ethnicity, religion, and economic circumstance and having programs for older teens of both sexes. That Boy Scouts also has traditional values, like requiring youth to do their "duty to God" and be "morally straight" is nothing to be ashamed of and should not be controversial. No court case has ever held that Boy Scouts discriminates unlawfully, and it is unfortunate here that anyone would characterized Boy Scouts' constitutionally protected right to hold traditional values as "discriminatory." That is just name-calling.

Q. May an individual who openly declares himself to be a homosexual be a volunteer Scout leader?

A. No. The Boy Scouts of America is a private membership organization; leadership in Boy Scouting is a privilege and not a right. Boy Scouts believes that homosexual conduct is not compatible with the aims and purposes of Scouting and that a known or avowed homosexual does not present a desirable role model for the youth in the Scouting program. Boy Scouts will continue to select only those who meet Boy Scout standards and qualifications for membership.

Q. What does “known or avowed” mean?

A. “Known” is what is known about you. “Avowed” is what you say about yourself. “Known” focuses on cases where someone has engaged in conduct in the community which makes it clear that he or she engages in homosexual conduct. The major cases, however, have been those in which open or “avowed” homosexuals have come forward to test the policy.

Q. Why is the leadership role so important to Scouting?

A. The responsibility for instilling Scouting values and beliefs is entrusted to adult volunteer leaders. One of the most important methods of Scouting is adult association, because association with adults of high character is critical to a boy’s development. Scouting’s program for instilling values in young people teaches through both principles and concrete examples of adult leaders. Adult volunteer leaders not only espouse Scouting’s values and beliefs, but more importantly they embody them as role models to Scouting youth. Through teaching, counseling, and role modeling, adult leaders play a critical role in transmitting Scouting values and beliefs to the boys. A boy may spend more time with his Scoutmaster, on weekend campouts and other small-group activities away from home, than he spends with his own father.

Q. Why don’t you allow each individual chartered organization to decide on whether an individual homosexual is a suitable leader or not?

A. Boy Scouts believes it is important to have national uniformity of values. Troops from all over get together at camporees on a district and council level, and once every four years at the national Jamboree. Few youth organizations can claim that sort of national identity.

Q. May a group of individuals who openly profess to be homosexuals obtain a unit charter?

A. No. The ability to charter a Cub Scout Pack or Boy Scout Troop is a privilege and not a right. Boy Scouts of America reserves the right to grant or withhold charters upon the basis of the aims and purposes of the Scouting program.

Q. Is Boy Scouts implying that homosexuals do not have good moral or emotional character? What about other types of sexual immorality?

A. Boy Scouts regards homosexual conduct as not morally straight as required in the Scout Oath. Morally straight is a broad term which includes all types of moral behavior. There are many persons who may be unsuitable role models of the Oath and Law for adolescent boys.

© 2004 Boy Scouts of America
www.bsalegal.org

This excerpt is from ReligiousTolerance.org:

Quote:

The organization has excluded potential members and has expelled current members who are:
bullet Members of religious organizations (or individuals with personal religious beliefs) that do not have a belief in a god. This includes Agnostics, Atheists, some Unitarian Universalists, some Buddhists, and others.
bullet Persons with minority sexual orientations, including both homosexuals and bisexuals. Indications of homosexual behavior are not needed; merely a homosexual or bisexual orientation is sufficient grounds to terminate a membership. They are not expelled because of something that they do; they are expelled because of what they are. The beliefs of the BSA go beyond even those of most conservative and some mainline Christians. They believe that both homosexual orientation and behavior is immoral.

The Girl Guides have an oath that is similar to the Boy Scouts:

"On my honor, I will try, to serve God & my country,
to help people at all times,
and to live by the Girl Scout Law."

However, since 1999, they allow individual girls to opt out of the use of the word "God." They can substitute Jehovah, the Goddess, the Great Spirit, etc. (do I sense a double standard here?) This allows girls who follow Buddhism, Humanism, Unitarian Universalism, and other faith groups to join.

The BSA does not require its members to be Christian, or even monotheistic. They allow Scouts to wear religious emblems from the Asatru, Bah'ai, Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, and Zoroastrian faiths (But NOT Wiccan however). They permitted, then cancelled, then permitted, then finally cancelled the wearing of emblems by Unitarian Universalist Boy Scouts. Buddhists, in theory, do not recognize the existence of a personal god. So taking an oath to god would seem to violate their theological beliefs. Hindus worship many gods and goddesses. Zoroastrians recognize a dual divinity - one good and one evil. Followers of Asatru recognize the existence of Norse Gods and Goddesses. It would seem that belief in multiple deities would make it difficult for a Scout to swear to love or do their duty to a single god. But somehow, these minority religions are accepted. It appears that any deity or set of deities will meet the BSA standards. (Huh! How do they explain that?)

we dont have a boy who would want to join the Boy Scouts:

#1-Deb is a Wiccan

#2 I saw how they somewhat brainwashed my 2 older brothers all those years ago, that I promised no child of mine would be allowed to ever join.

I'm ever thankful my Mother let me play Baseball instead of join the scouts.

more from ReligiousTolerance.org:

Quote:

To our knowledge, all of the court cases involving BSA membership or employment discrimination revolve around the nature of the organization. Two options are:
bullet Is BSA a private group, like a church or a chapter of the Masonic order? It would be called an "expressive association" in legal language. Such organizations can discriminate freely against women or minorities, even if human rights legislation exists which normally prohibits discrimination based on sex, religion, sexual orientation, etc. Analogies would be the Mormon church which once prohibited African-Americans from being ordained, or the Roman Catholic Church which still discriminates on the basis of gender. The BSA takes the position that it is distinctly private. In support of this argument BSA states:
bullet It is basically a collection of small, local, intimate groups, called troops or packs or posts.
bullet Forcing the BSA to accept homosexual members would be like requiring the NAACP to accept a Klansman into their group.
bullet Gays, Atheists, etc. who bring lawsuits against the BSA are not really sincere members of the BSA. They are "testers" with a personal agenda.
bullet Is it a "place of public accommodation" which attempts to make scouting available to every boy who wants it. In favor of this argument:
bullet The BSA is the largest youth movement in the world. Between 1992 and 1996, the BSA total assets in the U.S. increased from 277 million to 441 million dollars.
bullet BSA's federal charter obligates them to serve all boys.
bullet Other than discriminating on the basis of sexual orientation and religious belief, BSA has no barriers to membership. It aggressively recruit new members.
bullet Many troops are sponsored by government agencies (e.g. public schools, military base, fire department) and thus cannot discriminate on the basis of religion.
bullet Federal laws have been passed to allow the military to provide transportation for Scouts and to loan them equipment without charge. Every national Boy Scout jamboree since 1981 has been held on a military base.
bullet All recent presidents of the U.S. have been honorary presidents of the BSA.
bullet Many local councils receive substantial funding from the United Way. Such United Ways have a national and local policy of not ordinarily funding any charitable organization which discriminates on a basis of religion or sexual orientation. Some United Ways have stopped funding the Boy Scouts. However, many still continue such funding.
bullet BSA operates and licenses retail stores to sell Scouting materials and literature to both BSA members and the general public.
bullet Groups that are much smaller and private than the Boy Scouts have been recognized as public accommodations. One example is Big Brothers of the National Capital Area.

One source lists some criteria which determine whether a group is "distinctly private": its selectivity in admitting members; its advertising for members; its history; its commercial nature; the use of its facilities by nonmembers; and the use of public facilities by its members. 1

Results of recent court cases, and reactions to them:

The BSA policy of excluding persons with unacceptable religious beliefs and persons with homosexual or bisexual orientation has been the topic of many court cases, starting in 1981. There has been no clear pattern of wins or losses in lawsuits before the courts, and cases before human rights commissions.
bullet 1998: The American Civil Liberties Union sued the City of Chicago over both the religious and sexual orientation issues in the Scouting units that the city entities sponsored. The city ended its affiliation with the BSA. The Parent/Teacher Association has adopted a national policy of not permitting its chapters to sponsor Scouting units.
bullet 1999-APR - Illinois: The ACLU initiated a suit against the Chicago public schools and the Scott Air Force Base in southern Illinois. The ACLU position is that "Schools, military bases and other publicly funded groups have no business sponsoring Boy Scout troops so long as Scouts are required to take a religious oath...public funding of Boy Scouts of America troops violates the constitutional requirement of separation of church and state." 2
bullet 1999-AUG-5 - New Jersey court case: The New Jersey Supreme Court "unanimously struck down the Boy Scouts' policy banning gays from being members or leaders in the organization..." 3 George Davidson, attorney for the Boy Scouts vowed to appeal the case to the Supreme Court. The case was brought by James Dale, 29, of Matawan, NJ. He had been in the BSA for 12 years, had earned about 30 merit badges, and was an assistant Scoutmaster.
bullet The ruling read, in part, ''To recognize the Boy Scouts' First Amendment claim would be tantamount to tolerating the expulsion of an individual solely because of his status as a homosexual - an act of discrimination unprotected by the First Amendment freedom of speech.''
bullet Another part of the ruling said that the BSA policy is "based on little more than prejudice...The human price of this bigotry has been enormous."
bullet BSA spokesman Paul Stevenson said: "The law against discrimination as applied to the Boy Scouts is unconstitutional...'The New Jersey law against discrimination applies [only] to public accommodations. The Boy Scouts is a private accommodation, and as such we're not covered.''
bullet Plaintiff James Dale said that his Scouting experience prepared him for the legal battle. "[This is] exactly what Scouting has taught me: to believe in the system and that justice will prevail...When I was growing up, I didn't know I was gay, but the Boy Scouts made me feel good about who I was. Whether or not they know it, the Boy Scouts do wonderful things for gay kids across the country.''
bullet The American Family Association Center for Law & Policy is a conservative Christian group. Their Chief Counsel, Steve Crampton, stated: "traditional moral values were placed squarely in the court's cross-hairs today when it pulled its rhetorical trigger-equating the reasons for BSA's revocation of Dale's membership with 'the cancer of discrimination.' The New Jersey Supreme Court's ruling is nothing less than an official indictment of all who believe homosexuality is immoral - it is a rejection of the moral teachings of over 2000 years of Western Civilization." Brian Fahling, Senior Trial Attorney stated: "the intrusion of the government into the affairs of private organizations is now complete. First we were prohibited from expressing our moral values in the public square, now we are told that we may not express them even among ourselves in private associations." 4
bullet 1999-AUG-11 - United Methodist Church troop sponsorship: 11,738 of the 37,000 congregations of the United Methodist Church sponsor Scout troops. They sponsor a total of 421,579 boys. Methodist churches currently sponsor about 12% of all of the BSA troops in the U.S. A drive has been organized to have a troop in every church. But the denomination has a ban on discrimination based on sexual orientation. Jane Hall Harvey, UMC assistant general secretary said: "We believe non-discrimination is the order of the day." The denomination will shortly be asked if its ban on discrimination based on sexual orientation applies to Scouting. If they pull out of the BSA the possibility exists for UMC Scout troops to form the nucleus of a parallel Boy Scouts organization -- one that does not discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation or religion.
bullet 1999-AUG-11 - Providence, RI decision: The Narragansett Council of the BSA in Providence RI announced a new policy on gays that was approved by the BSA head office in Irving TX. The council acknowledge publicly that a Scout can be a homosexual, as long as he doesn't advertise it. This is, in effect, the same don't ask, don't tell policy as is used by the U.S. military. This may signal the path for the BSA in the future: to adopt a type of local option concerning discrimination. Mary Bonauto, a spokesperson for the Gay and Lesbian Advocates and Defenders in Boston MA commented: "It sounds to me like the Boy Scouts are in retreat...They acknowledge the sexual orientation of their members is none of their business." The Westboro Baptist Church, owner of the homophobic www.godhatesfags.com web site, announced that they will be picketing both Irving and Providence on 1999-SEP.
bullet 1999-AUG-17 - BSA Study: The executive committee of the BSA had received a resolution which would authorize a study by a 12-member panel to review "the scientific and medical basis for the determination of sexual orientation." They would also review "The moral and religious basis for defining homosexuality as a moral issue." The panel would call for input from medical experts and religious leaders. Part of the mandate of the panel would be to consider changes to the BSA membership policies. Gregg Shields, a BSA spokesperson, was keen to point out that "This is a resolution. It's not a study, and it's not a policy" The resolution was referred to the "relationships committee...The nation [sic] executive committee is dedicated to the polices that we have in place, and we don't foresee those changing"
bullet Ongoing - San Diego CA: The American Civil Liberties Union and the Tom Homann Law Association have asked the city of San Diego to end its financial subsidies to the Boy Scouts until the BSA ends its discrimination based on sexual orientation and religion. The legal groups are also asking that the city council end its $1.00 annual lease to the Boy Scouts council for their headquarters office in Balboa Park. An end to the rent-free use of city-owned property on Fiesta Island was also sought. The city and ACLU settled the case in 2004. The city will pay almost $1 million in legal fees and court costs; the Boy Scouts will be evicted.
bullet 1999-SEP: The Commission on United Methodist Men of the United Methodist Church criticized the New Jersey court ruling.
bullet 1999-SEP-16: Presidential candidates: A newsletter that opposes equal rights for gays and lesbians, "Straight from the Heart," asked various Republican presidential candidates for their opinions on homosexuals in the Boy Scouts. A spokesperson for Governor George Bush wrote "He believes the Boy Scouts is a private organization and they should be able to set their own standards." He added that the New Jersey Supreme Court erred when it struck down the Scouts' ban on homosexuals serving as scoutmasters. A spokesperson for Elizabeth Dole's campaign said that she "supports the right of private organizations to set their own membership rules."
bullet 1999-OCT-10 - United Methodist Church troop sponsorship (continued): The United Methodist board of Church and Society approved a statement on homosexuals within the Boy Scouts by a two-thirds vote. The statement said, in part: "While the General Board of Church and Society would like to enthusiastically affirm and encourage this continuing partnership of the church and scouting, we cannot due to the Boy Scouts of America's discrimination against gays...The United Methodist Church ... strongly condemns discrimination based on sexual orientation." The Boy Scouts' policy "conflicts with our [church's] Social Principles." According to the Washington Times, the board will support the Lambda Legal Defense Fund during the appeal of the New Jersey decision to the U.S. Supreme Court. The LLDF is a homosexual support group seeking equal rights under law for gays and lesbians. Any decision to disengage the UMC from the BSA would have to be made at the UMC General Conference.
bullet 1999-OCT - New Jersey court case (cont'd): The BSA filed an appeal of the New Jersey Supreme Court decision with the U.S. Supreme Court. Spokesperson Attorney Steve Crampton, of the American Family Association's Law Center, was pleased with the appeal. He commented: "As we understood it, there was some discussion and debate internally as to whether they would pursue the case on appeal."
bullet 1999-OCT - New Jersey court case (cont'd): The Family Research Council discussed the New Jersey decision in its October issue of Washington Watch. Author and Senior Director of Cultural Studies, Robert H. Knight, raised some interesting points:
bullet Knight described an incident in his childhood when he was a Scout. Another Scout in his troop tried to sexually molest a fellow scout. The perpetrator was expelled by the Scoutmaster. Knight wrote that: "Under an August 5 unanimous New Jersey Supreme Court ruling...my scoutmaster would be in hot water." [Author's note: This appears to be a non sequitur. The court ruling dealt with BSA membership entry rules. It did not touch in any way on the conditions under which a Scout could be expelled.]
bullet Justice Allan B. Handler's mentioned in his ruling that a homosexual "is no more or less likely to be moral that a person who is heterosexual." Knight commented "This means that homosexual behavior must be inherently moral..." [Author's note: This also appears to be a non sequitur. The judge's seems to imply that some heterosexuals engage in moral acts, that some homosexuals do as well, and that the rate of moral acts is the same for gays and straights. Knight's interpretation of the ruling seems to imply that all homosexual behavior is inherently moral. It is not. Homosexuals can engage in coercive, manipulative, non-consensual and unsafe sex, just as heterosexuals can.]
bullet Knight commented that "In declaring the BSA to be a 'public accommodation,' Chief Justice] Poritz and her colleagues couldn't find any distinction between a Scout troop and, say, a bus station." [Author's note: This appears to be a misrepresentation of the facts. Some youth groups are private clubs; others are public accommodations. The court decided that the BSA was one of the latter. But anyone can see that the BSA does not resemble a bus station. Just about the only thing that they share in common is that they are both public accommodations.]
bullet Knight concluded by saying that "Judaism, Christianity and Islam all teach that homosexuality is wrong. If the judges are right...then religious people should expect their congregations to come under severe legal attack." He is apparently implying that if a minister teaches that homosexual behavior is immoral that they can expect to be sued by the state on civil rights charges. [Author's note: Again, this does not make sense. Ministers' free speech is protected under the 1st Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. In the past, some ministers have promoted slavery, opposed racial integration, opposed inter-racial marriage, promoted the unequal treatment of women, etc. without having been charged by the state. They will certainly be able to safely to include homophobia in their sermons if they wish.]

Quote:

The Supreme Court decision:

The U.S. Supreme Court, in a close 5 - 4 decision, overturned an earlier New Jersey Supreme Court ruling that had found that the Boy Scouts were a public accommodation. The U.S. Supreme Court ruled that the BSA is a private organization and thus may set its own moral code. Forcing it to accept gays would violate its constitutional right to freedom of association.

Chief Justice William H. Rehnquist wrote for the majority. He said in part: "The Boy Scouts asserts that homosexual conduct is inconsistent with the values it seeks to instill. [Requiring the Scouts to accept homosexual scoutmasters] would significantly burden the organization's right to oppose or disfavor homosexual conduct." He did acknowledge that homosexuality had gained greater social acceptance. However, he wrote that "This is scarcely an argument for denying First Amendment protection to those who refuse to accept these views. The First Amendment protects expression, be it of the popular variety or not."

Thus the BSA can now legally discriminate on the basis of gender, age, sexual orientation, religious belief or any other basis. They do not have to follow local, state or federal anti-discrimination laws. One interesting implication of the court ruling is that the BSA will now have much more difficulty when they try to gain access to schools or government facilities, or when they try to tap into government resources. In the past, they had held scout jamborees on army bases; this may not be possible in the future.

The court decision only applies to gay scout leaders, "...and does not directly confront the question of whether the Scouts may ban gays from general membership..." 1

Conservative religious groups applauded the decision; civil rights groups were appalled. Two immediate reactions to the court decision were:
--Jan LaRue, spokesperson for the Family Research Council, wrote: "It is not the role of government to decide who should share a pup tent with the Scouts, who is fit to be a Scoutmaster, and what message the Scouts should deliver about homosexuality."
--Ralph G. Neas, spokesperson for People For the American Way Foundation wrote: "The court’s decision permits the Boy Scouts to hide their discrimination behind the First Amendment and rejects the right of New Jersey to create a just society for its citizens. The Court has allowed freedom of association to become a tool by which groups unfairly exclude a group of Americans."

Ive just found two alternatives:

Camp Fire USA (open to EVERYONE)

and possibly Spiral Scouts (a Wiccan Scout program, also open to EVERYONE)

I feel better now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by irishgrl (Post 568195)

Ive just found two alternatives:

Camp Fire USA (open to EVERYONE)

and possibly Spiral Scouts (a Wiccan Scout program, also open to EVERYONE)

I feel better now.

Most official Scouting organisations world wide include an oath to God:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scout_Promise

Ironically, one that doesn't is Israel.

There are other exceptions, such as Hong Kong which allows the word "faith" instead of God - that'd cover Wiccans.

Bizarrely, in Australia we dropped the Queen (from the oath, that is) but not God.

I do not agree with the Boy Scouts' position and think it is assinine. But, they are a private organization and, therefore, can do what they want. And, though I disagree with them and will never give them any money (though I was one mind you) - I support their right to act as they want as a private group. For me not to support that right means to me that I lose the right to bitch about the govt. interfering in my private life.

Interestingly, I actually worked on this case (the private acts aspect) when this was a big topic.

i went to a private christian elementary school. it was just the best school in the district. i clearly remember that my mom talked with me about making decisions and that i was old enough to make some and stand up for myself. we had bible study every day and chapel every week. the bible study wasn't so bad. i still remember the books in order and the song that goes with them...

then there was chapel. i sang along sometimes. i never prayed. that was my silent decision. everyone knew we were atheists. we never went to any of the services and we were the people that never said the pledge of allegiance or mumbled along with the prayers. it was awkward.

even now i stand politely with hand to chest every morning when the kids say the pledge. one of the kids called me on it. i told her that i show my respect silently and that i thought it was not disrespectful. and that was that. why is it so hard to be an atheist?

Quote:

Originally Posted by irishgrl (Post 568195)

Ive just found two alternatives:

Camp Fire USA (open to EVERYONE)

and possibly Spiral Scouts (a Wiccan Scout program, also open to EVERYONE)

I feel better now.

i was a "camp fire girl" when i was young, i joined after being in 1 yr of the "girl scouts", "girl scouts" are the same way as "cub/boy scouts", it was awful how they tried to cram their beliefs down your throat~ the next yr i joined "camp fire girls" & so enjoyed it for many yrs~ i always thought they were a great organization~

I just want to clarify that I have no problem with believing in God/Goddess, and I went to Sunday School myself as a child and I wasnt ruined from it. I dont think it would necessarily ruin Brendan to go to Sunday School either. The problem for me is, I absolutely deplore organized religion anymore, and I object strongly to the notion that a person must attend some sort of church service or be denied membership in the Scouts. Then there is the problem of actually having to pick a Church that we could go to regularly....I frankly object IN PRINCIPLE to the requirement.

Jason, the Boy Scouts didnt used to style themselves a "private organization". When my brother went, they were considered "public access". See the post above from ReligiousTolerance.org that compares/contrasts the two positions. But there is no doubt now that they are operating as a private "club" and as such, can make their own rules (I posted quite a bit of material on this, I hope some of you read it!!!)

I know I went a bit crazy with all the info I posted but I like to research a thing pretty thoroughly and well, I was just incensed. :sorry:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neb-Maat-Re (Post 568202)

Camp Fire USA does NOT.

I did not see anything in the RT blurb about the BS ever maintaining they were anything but a private organization. Yes, they have taken public funds, used public things, etc. - but that is a tricky test. On the one hand, the BS do a great deal of public service. So, not to let them on public property or not to give them a ride would seem silly. But, if they take too much, then they are considered to fall under the public works.

Quote:

Originally Posted by strandinthewind (Post 568254)

here is the specific part:

Quote:

Is it a "place of public accommodation" which attempts to make scouting available to every boy who wants it. In favor of this argument:

--The BSA is the largest youth movement in the world. Between 1992 and 1996, the BSA total assets in the U.S. increased from 277 million to 441 million dollars.
--BSA's federal charter obligates them to serve all boys.
--Other than discriminating on the basis of sexual orientation and religious belief, BSA has no barriers to membership. It aggressively recruit new members.
--Many troops are sponsored by government agencies (e.g. public schools, military base, fire department) and thus cannot discriminate on the basis of religion.
--Federal laws have been passed to allow the military to provide transportation for Scouts and to loan them equipment without charge. Every national Boy Scout jamboree since 1981 has been held on a military base.
--All recent presidents of the U.S. have been honorary presidents of the BSA.
--Many local councils receive substantial funding from the United Way. Such United Ways have a national and local policy of not ordinarily funding any charitable organization which discriminates on a basis of religion or sexual orientation. Some United Ways have stopped funding the Boy Scouts. However, many still continue such funding.
--BSA operates and licenses retail stores to sell Scouting materials and literature to both BSA members and the general public.
--Groups that are much smaller and private than the Boy Scouts have been recognized as public accommodations. One example is Big Brothers of the National Capital Area.

As for the Scouts being on public property, no one is saying they cant merely that they not be given a preference over other groups based on their God-centered tenets. Unfortunately, High Schools cannot sponsor them because they discriminate, and Many United Way organizations wont fund them any longer for the same reason.

The Boy Scouts just built their local headquarters literally around the block from my house. Want me to go & egg it for you? :shrug:

:D