I received this from Javier last night; I'm not sure if I'll add it into the Q&A sessions as I hadn't given much thought as to how rebuttals would work; I guess I should.

quote:

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As you read this, you need to put aside your knowledge of S&L as members of that famous group Fleetwood Mac. You need to think back of them in the period in question (1970) as struggling artists way before their incursion into that band and the fate that awaited them. The point I am trying to make is that we do not live in a world where there is a level playing field for all. The opportunities they experienced would not and could not have happened to anyone who was perceived as 'other', that is, different from the white mainstream. In the three sections, I saw very few critical questions posed to Olsen. The adoring fans treated him more like a holy apostle than an ordinary person with ethnocentric foibles. But then, that's the nature of adoring fans.

I noticed he stated that he thought Lindsey's mono caused the break-up of Fritz. I guess those many years of heavy 'external stimuli' seriously wreaked havoc on Olsen's memory. Lindsey came down with mono at least 6 to 9 months after Fritz had disbanded. Also, Keith Olsen's curt, shallow answer to the only critical question posed (in my mind) of whether he picked out S&L on the basis of their 'look' did not surprise me. In order for one to make an informed and just opinion about the worth of another there must be some measure of empathy. Olsen wants you to believe he was fair-minded and that he gave all the members of Fritz ample thought and consideration. That is pure atrophied cow dung. He saw us perform once, one set of material. He had firmly focused on only two persons. Contrast that with Bill Graham, who'd expressed interest in the entire group. Curiously, Mr Graham never opined that only S&L were worthy of promotion--he was looking at the whole of Fritz, not simply pretty faces. Olsen conveniently overlooks the
well-documented reality of Rock music's star-making machinery and the patterns of racism pervading all aspects of the entertainment industry. Afterall, it is no coincidence that the chief moguls of that world are white and that Hispanics constitute less than one percent of all music venues. Well now, some of that has changed--now it is mostly black and white. But back in the 1960s many stars of African American music looked to Motown, Chess, and Stax labels in order to find the kind of support and exposure that was lacking for them in the cozy white enclaves of the times. I sense a cruel hypocrisy in his answers--or is it plain ignorance? His judgement that S&L were the only talented members 'worth fighting for' was based upon his hearing them performing my songs. It is curious that even back then he was able to detach them from the music and at the same time project that they would become the famous composers they are now, even though at the time they hadn't written anything of their own (with the exception of Stevie's pair of songs, which I don't believe swayed his thinking then). So he wants you readers to believe that this great leap of faith was based entirely upon his perception of their potential talent as a dynamic duo.

One last item to consider is one of regional values that I commented upon in the Fritz Q&A. We were a San Francisco Bay Area band playing music inspired by many of the big-name influences in the Bay Area at the time. We were somewhat a product of our environment. Olsen did not relate to this scene let alone, understand it. I had mentioned that Brian and I vehemently rejected the values of Tinseltown. Bob was unsure but willing to go along with everybody else, while S&L were bolstered and greatly encouraged by Olsen to go to the Southland. Now I understand clearly why their attitudes changed so drastically when we were gigging down in L.A. Our earlier band consensus had been that we weren't interested in becoming carbon copies of the Airplane or the Dead, we had our minds fixed upon our own originality. I like to think we had transcended the commerciality of the three-minute ditty. The prevailing aesthetic of Southern California recording execs was much more commercial and at great odds with our type of orientation. Therefore it is obvious that the band would have required a major overhaul in order to meet the $tandards of Hollywood. Therefore, it would be much easier to reform the sound by dividing up the group. Yes, its that old adage, divide and conquer. I tend to believe that it was a question of retaining major control. I discussed how David Forest (ex-con and thief) manipulated us to follow him to Los Angeles for the purposes of keeping his fingers in the pie. And I stand by my assertions of Olsen as a another racist product of the times. For him to imply that he was objective and fair-minded is spurious. Imagine if he'd heard East L.A.'s Los Lobos back in 1974--he would have been equally dismissive of that group ('no commercial potential'). Well they just aren't his 'cup of tea.' So just multiply that aversion by all the record/media biz sharpie insiders who make 'artistic' decisions on a daily, monthly, yearly basis and you have the macrohistorical patterns of discrimination.
Yes everyday thousands of CDs vie for the honor of 'discovery' and hit status. Established names are already shoe-ins. But you'd be amazed how far the primary contacts from major labels (even payola) can help to get those new groups 'over.' Again, its a question of empathy.

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[Edited 2 times, lastly by ThePenguin on August 29, 2000]

I didnt know if I was allowed to respond to this...but I just read it and I cant believe it!! Its been 30 years and he still remembers the harsh feelings he felt then...you can see he has not gotten over anything in such a long period of time. He still has so much anger.

I dont know WHAT to think..but maybe he isnt too far off. Lindsey and Stevie were really quite good looking and marketable..and sometimes I just wonder how together they were before being chosen ...and they were marketed..and I wonder if it wasnt for Keith ..if they would have become a couple at all..and if they really wanted to make music alone at all..I wonder if they were just like picked...brainwashed..then taken alone as the dynamic duo..and the ones left behind just to fade into obscurity.

We know what Lindsey and Stevie did become..but back then...did Keith really see that? Was he that much of a genius..or did he see like that two gorgeous young people could sing and play well enuf and could pose as these lovers for the mellowish early 70's.

Its easy to really get into what Javier is saying...and I must say...its hard to disagree or say hes TOTALLY wrong...of course I dont know if he is..but it would make sense..and it is a shame really........

I guess hes trying to make it a race issue..and also trying to defend that he wasnt playing anything different than what the scene was at that time. I guess hes really trying to say they were good..playing the music that was popular..yet the two white pretty people were picked out for no reason but the fact they were 1. white 2. pretty.

This deserves alot of thought I think. I could so easily just listen to both sides of this...I dont think we will.

The only thing is...S/L did show they had talent...and they both mention Fritz in interviews..and Lindsey is amazing and respected and Stevie is some sort of icon...and they didnt pose as lovers for long..and they did it their own way and they both really flew with it.

So...if FRTIZ made it...how much better off would they have been? Stevie still would have been doing HER thing..Lindsey HIS..they always were true ...and you cant blame anything for that but just how they are as people. So if Fritz were Fleetwood Mac..cant GET bigger than that...it still would have been the same as it is now..and he probably would feel just as angry..he got his SHOT..but S/L would have gotten most of the fame....expecially S.


[Edited 1 times, lastly by Janet on August 29, 2000]

Of course it can be discussed Janet; that's why I posted it here. :D I also told Javier that it was posted and invited him to join the Ledge boards so perhaps he will also participate in the discussions. I agree-- it is a very interesting topic and a lot to think about.

- Marty

quote:

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Originally posted by ThePenguin:
I received this from Javier last night;...yadda, yadda, yadda... Established names are already shoe-ins.

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Except for Lindsey, apparently :rolleyes:

-Lisa



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*If you won't fly you can't be free*

Um...excuse me...but, Lindsey and Stevie were not the only "pretty white" members of the band....they were the only ones selected by Keith Olsen. And I don't believe for one second that they manufactured a relationship in order to get in the biz (which is not something that Javier said...but, I'm just tossing it in). I do know that I have been a fan of theirs for quite some time and I believe them...I believe in what they sang and wrote and am not letting someone with sour grapes in his system influence my way of thinking to that extent.

The fact S and L wrote all their own material in Buckingham Nicks shows they did have the talent to make it as artists in their own right. If they were going to go the formulaic, tried-and-true route, those pretty white people (which, by the way, sounds a bit like reverse-discrimination to me...suggesting their race and looks had more to do with their success than their talent--but of course, it is well known that ONLY white people can be racists--so, I must be wrong) would have sung the songs of some popular song writer and to hell with their own ambitions in that area (and, they probably would have been more successful as Buckingham Nicks had they gone that route).

Does discrimination exist? Of course it does. Was it a part of this equation? I doubt it. Wasn't Javier the person who said that he wanted his work to be a lot more socially relevant than the other members of the band? When you are that far apart musically--and bickering as much as he said they were--something has to give. And, if the drive and overwhelming ambition is there...why couldn't the members of Fritz pick up and go on without Stevie and Lindsey, or on their own? Others have done it.
I think once in awhile, the blame game has to stop and one has to take responsibility for one's own destiny.

Just like Janet, I don't know what to think. I do find it a little strange that Mr. Pacheco would still be so bitter about it after so many years. Obviously, he feels gypped that Keith Olsen asked S&L to come with him to LA, etc. Mr. Pacheco blames it on race. Not once does he mention the other qualities that a person in Olsen's shoes would look at: stage energy, appeal to the audience, chemistry with the others (which S&L obviously had with each other). I mean, not to cut down on Mr. Pacheco's talents, but he was only a keyboardist. Now, I am not in any way saying that the keyboard is an unimportant part of the band. I just don't think a keyboard player is going to be as well-received by the fans as a singer (Lindsey sang in Fritz, didn't he?). He even made a comment about Olsen's wanting Lindsey and Stevie because of hearing them perform HIS (Javier's) songs. Well, being the singers of the songs, they usually are going to be the ones noticed for them.

I could go on longer, but I really haver to get going! Thanks for posting this Marty...very interesting.

Yeah it's called sourgrapes I guess.Stevie and Lindsey deserved to make it and he's just jealous. :p
And it made me :mad: for him to say something to the effect of "they wouldn't be a couple if it wasn't for Keith" Yeah right whatever :rolleyes:Heck they were probably dating secretly in Fritz ;)
They might have been the most beautiful and marketable,but who's to say they couldn't get by on raw talent-they can't be compaired to anyone simply because they do there own thing :D
Point is it happened God intended it to happen and that's the end of it.Why can't this guy be a little less hostile.Does he think he was the only member of a band that got dropped.The best Q n A they did was with "Hoppy" sure he was upset they left,but he was proud they made it and remebered all the good times he had spent with them. :)
I have to admit if it wasn't for fritz FM wouldn't have happened;however that dosn't mean you have to get all hostile about it-what's done is done! :cool:
"Never Break the Chain" FM
-alex-

Interesting response, and interesting points by everyone. I had actually sort of been hoping that Javier might have stumbled upon Keith's Q&A while it was happening, giving them an opportunity to address each other directly.

In defense of Javier just in terms of the tone of his rebuttal, I can understand why he responded as he did. He raised some important social issues that he firmly believes shaped the whole Fritz situation when the band was crumbling, and outside influences sped up the disintegration. His thoughts were met with, and this is my own opinion, a fairly arrogant and disrespectful response initially that didn't address the issue, but instead was dismissive and insulting to Javier as a person.

Keith said:
" . . . and I took Lindsey and Stevie aside and said to them " You know...you two really have a unique sound together.... but the rest of your band will hold you back" ......( a nice way of saying that they sucked!)... I could go on and on but there you have it!"

I do think that a good deal of what Javier is saying about a "level playing field" and the opportunities afforded to non-white kids, especially in the 70s, is true. But without that, I think it's possible to understand why Keith's comments hit a raw nerve and solicited the kind of response Javier sent. Perhaps Keith is right and the rest of Fritz didn't have "it" in his eyes, but there are more thoughtful ways to say it. If you put yourself in Javier's shoes, to have his heartfelt concerns quickly eschewed with seemingly very little considered thought, and to have his life and music flippantly dismissed as simply having "sucked," -- that's harsh.

I have some mixed feelings about Javier's original Q&A, and I do think that sour grapes enter into the picture in certain instances. But honestly, I didn't especially enjoy Keith Olsen's Q&A because I thought he seemed abrasive and did show a lack of empathy.

[Sidenote: Neither Javier, nor Keith are entirely in possession of all the facts about how Stevie and Lindsey worked things about between them, what their own ambitions were as a duo, how they truly felt about all the circumstances surrounding Fritz, BN, FM, etc… But I don't really think this dispute is actually very much about Lindsey and Stevie as people or musicians. Stevie and Lindsey simply provide the backdrop upon which Javier and Keith are making their points, because Lindsey and Stevie are what Javier and Keith have in common.]

I think everyone is making good points here. I really wanted to read other opinions..because I tend to empathize a little too much to make a real statement.

If I were Javier I would be angry too, angry that I had a band that totally broke up..and that two people from this band found 100 percent total success. Yes..I would be very bitter at them..and at Keith...and at the whole music industry altogether.

But others HAVE gone thru racial barriers...the 70's were all about breaking woman barriers as well as racial barriers. Take disco..take raggae...take the whole movement that started to happen.

If he had been spectacular enough..would he have also been "chosen" by Keith? Thats the question that I guess there isnt an answer to.

I trully believe Keith saw something special with Lindsey and Stevie because of their beauty...talent and presence. He saw money..he saw this great ability to market these two as lovers..I dont think he ever saw a Roxette or anything.

That isnt so wrong..his job was to sense talent..and he was right with those two..again we will never know about the others...and all Javier can do is sound like a very angry bitter man...no matter how he really handled it.

I know I upset people when I said that S/L were not really a couple until they were put together to make music alone. The whole couple issue has been bothering me alot lately.. not to get off the subject..tho I am...its very disturbing to me to read what I read or see what I see in this whole new light...and to realize..how quickly AFTER fame..how S/L totally parted ways and so quickly got into other people...but that comes from my frustration of all the recent news ...when it comes to S/L ..I take it too seriously..and think about it too much..and its easy to sway because anything could be read in different ways....

I wish I could hear something from Keith tho...I think he REALLY did believe in them SO much...its just life that Javier didnt get the same break...


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*~You can try...but you can't get me...into the fire...'cause I'm all out of sympathy...and, baby I can't walk this wire~*

*~Ask anybody...they'll say I should walk out...but thats not what I want...ask anybody...and they'll all say the same...but that's all right...cause I know somehow...we can make it right...~*

*~ We fall down...we get hurt...we get up...and take a drink from the loving cup~*

Wow. This is a great discussion. Uhm...I think Javier probably has some good points to what he is saying. But S&L weren't the only white people in Fritz. If Keith was going for good looks and white skin, then why not ask Brian along. I mean in those pictures that Javier was nice enough to share, Brian was just as 'pretty' as Lindsey. Javier was cute himself and so was Bob.
But I think there a great points that were pointed out by everyone. Like Stevie and Lindsey were the ones singing. When you go to a Bruce concert you see Bruce because he is the one singing and out front. Let's face it. Keyboardist and drummers aren't really the ones noticed. You even see that in FM. Christine gets underrated, maybe because she's stuck behind the keyboard...which is where she likes to be.
IMHO, I wouldn't be surprised if the reason Javier and the rest got overlooked--especially Javier--had to do with the social music he was writing, since Keith wanted commercial appeal of radio songs. He seemed like he didn't want to "give-in" on anything or on any respect in order to get a foot in the door for the radio music scene. Stevie and Lindsey, though, managed to blend the commercial with the innovative ala Tusk. In any career, there is some kind of "giving-in" until you can finally make it and stand on your own, like S&L do now.

OK--to throw this out there because I really don't know...and maybe someone else does...but, were Stevie and Lindsey marketed as lovers? Ever? Cause that's not the impression I got. I mean, yeah, you have the B/N cover ... but it was my impression that they weren't "marketed" at all. Two talented people who came with a built-in public relations "angle" and the record company didn't do anything with them. And, even when they joined Fleetwood Mac...I admit I really didn't pay attention as it was happening in the 70's, but I didn't think anyone stressed the fact that they were a couple WHEN they were a couple. I think they only stressed it when the group needed to explain why the heck Rumours was taking so long to record. I don't remember seeing or reading one interview from pre-Rumours where they "marketed" their being lovers in any way at all. You couldn't even tell from the way they acted on-stage together at that time that they were together.

Like I said, I don't know...but, that's not the impression I got from the evidence I've seen...and from what I've read from someone ("Hoppy") who could also have an ax to grind, but doesn't seem to...Stevie and Lindsey, in their off-stage moments, with no one around but friends to see them, were very much a couple and in it together for the long haul. I don't think they could have gone through all they went through when times were really tough if they didn't have that bond...and, in spite of the fact that they did have many lovers after each other, there was still a very strong connection between them.That doesn't come from a business arrangement gone bad.

Anyway...obviously Stevie and Lindsey know the truth about what they meant to each other and they both have presented it to the public in interviews, song, etc. and that is the version of the truth I'm choosing to accept. No matter what went wrong with their relationship in the 70's, I think it's pretty amazing that a debate still rages on in a new century...that's some pretty strong chemistry there.

First of all, I have to agree with Regina's posts. I will try to explain my feelings on this issue although she has already stated a lot of what I also think about this.

I'm sad that Javier feels so angry some 30 years later about what has happened. It's also sad to me that he has to be so bitter that he puts his harsh opinions out there to make fans start questioning the people that they admire. I understand that he has a right to his own opinions and that he is expressing his feelings of being slighted. But everyone in the business knows just how rough and dirty the music business can be when trying to get recognized. Like many others have said, S&L have proven their talent and it doesn't seem fair to me that those that were in their lives so long ago had to make up excuses for why S&L were discovered over themselves. I know I would be extremely hurt if my 30 year career as a musician was being questioned...on whether it was only my looks and race that got me where I was today. S&L have put way too much on the line for what they have today. To have someone come along and undermine the reasons for them being where they are today totally disgusts me.

Another issue besides the musical talent that has been questioned is S&L's personal lives. I agree with Regina's post...I didn't recall S&L being marketed as anything other than a male and female singer/songwriter team that had the perfect dueting voices to sing together. That was their appeal...their voices...at least in the beginning. Do you really think that anybody cared that they were a couple back then? They didn't have the drama of a break up like they did during Rumours and after. What benefits would that have really created for them?

It seems to me that Javier is coming up with excuses for why S&L have made it to where they are...overlooking the fact that they are truly talented people who deserve to be where they are today.

Sometimes I really wish that S&L would do a Q&A to stand up for themselves. This hasn't turned into just a debate of Javier vs. Keith...it has somehow turned out to be about the credibility of both the talent and the relationship of S&L. But, in a way, why should they have to justify their own lives? As long as they have been true to themselves then that's all that matters. How upsetting for talented people to have to explain their lives in order to be redeemed as worthy.



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~*~*~Melissa~*~*~

I guess I'm tending to look at this whole thing in a way that isn't so much about Stevie and Lindsey, as it is about Javier and Keith.

Javier certainly has a way of being extremely blunt with his opinions and the way he's chosen to express himself may actually be more of a hinderance for getting people to see his point of view, than if he tried to be a little more placating. But that's his choice (or problem), I guess.

Bluntness aside, I don't actually think Javier is saying that Lindsey and Stevie haven't deserved what they've received. The fact that Lindsey and Stevie were not a flash in the pan and have been able to sustain their careers the way they have for decades speaks volumes for their talents. Javier is certainly upset that he didn't get his shot and he believes he wasn't afforded the same consideration given to Lindsey and Stevie . . . but I don't think he's actually saying that those two somehow skated by on good looks and nothing else. In his original Q&A I believe he actually said that he thought that they were deserving of their success because of their talent. I think his point is that he slipped through the cracks because of his "bad" looks.

Where Javier gets into dicey territory is when he seems to vaguely question compromises Lindsey and Stevie may have made to "make it" in L.A., when he really doesn't know what Stevie and Lindsey did or thought or experienced as much as he may like to think he does. And in his attempt to explain why his "look" wasn't acceptable, he may go a little overboard in emphasizing how their looks got them everything he feels he never got -- not wanting to consider that talent may have played a greater role.

But when I read Javier's response, I don't actually see a great attack launched AT Lindsey and Stevie belittling their talents . . . I see someone with a ton of anger who feels like he was as talented, but wasn't allowed to show it because a flash judgment call was made about his appearance.

Having not been there, obviously it's impossible to know what truly happened . . . how much time Keith spent listening to each member . . . what sort of impression Pacheco, Aguirre and Kane didn't make that Buckingham and Nicks did . . .

As is usually my middle of the road kind of thing to say: There's two very different versions of events here bewteen Keith and Javier, and I figure there's probably some truth to each side and the truth lies somewhere in between the "they sucked" version that Keith believes, and the "I wasn't given fair consideration" version that Javier believes. But none of that really actually has a lot to do with Stevie and Lindsey and what they've been able to accomplish in the years since working with Javier or Keith.

There really isn't anything about this whole discussion that makes me question anything about Lindsey and Stevie, their feelings, their choices, their words, their talents at all.

I agree with a lot of points others have made. However, I think that a person doesn't think much of himself if he is still holding a grudge against people after 30 years. He needs to get a life!

I also think that Keith had an idea of what he was looking for and a sound that went along with it. Stevie & Lindsey happened to have that look and sound and it worked for Keith. If the others were just as talented, then I am sure they could have tried to have success on their own without Stevie & Lindsey. Some people just want it more than others so they work harder for it and they sacrifice a lot more.

I don't believe they were marketed as a couple and I don't think that they have to justify their lives to anyone. If Javier is upset with them, he should not go on a forum with their fans and bash them. It should really be between him and them.

If you listen to their music you could easily see just how talented Stevie & Lindsey are. You don't stay in the music business this long just based on looks alone. You actually have to have some talent too!!

Another point that some people have breezed over, and got me thinking, was Javier's saying something about him not being given a 'fair chance'. Well, Stevie and Lindsey weren't really given "chances" either. If they had been, they would have had to audition, and they did not have to at all. Javier had an EQUAL chance as Stevie and Lindsey: those performances that Keith said he witnessed. Of course Lindsey and Stevie are going to stand out more than Javier, becuase they sang, and like I said, that will attract more attention than a keyboardist.

I could understand his comment about that if Keith had held auditions and not included Javier, or anyone else besides Stevie and Lindsey, then YES, he could say that he wasn't given a fair chance. Keith saw this band perform, recognized the OBVIOUS talent in Stevie and Lindsey, and convinced them to go solo.

I haven't read the Javier Pacheco Q&A for a while, but as someone mentioned in an earlier post, didn't Javier say something in it about a lot of argueing going on? If that was the case, a 'break-up' might have happened anyway. I think he is just looking for someone to blame, and decided Keith Olsen should be the one.

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***Back and forth, lies unfurl...in the eyes, in the eyes, in the eyes of the world***