Bobby Hunt & Doug Graves
 

Does anyone have any opinion about whether these two were official members of the band, however briefly, in 1974? There seems to be a bit of ambiguity about this- in Mick's autobiography for example he talks about the band having "personnel spasms" (or at least I think that was the phrase). They aren't listed as members in the booklet that accompanies the Chain , however.

Rolling Stone Nov 74:

"...But the real Fleetwood Mac is accenting the future – and right now that's the tour, a 43-date swing that ends December 1st – with yet another addition, Doug Graves on keyboards."

The question remains though, were they ever told "you're in the band" or were they told "we are hiring you for this tour"?

We will never know because Fleetwood will only tell us the story that he wants us to hear. Apparently if you have been keeping up with other threads on here, he might want us to forget that whole period between PG and SN & LB.

EDIT:

Mick's book says "We had some personnel spasms when we added a keyboardist, a black guy who was a friend of Bob, but he didn't last long. Then, to fill out the sound, we added another keyboardist in the person of Doug Graves, who'd been an engineer on Heroes. He was better, and didn't last either."

Poor old Robert Hunt, isn't named, is referred to simply by the colour of his skin, and to top it all off it is suggested he wasn't particularly that good.

I don't think they were ever consider "members". Since they were down to a 4 piece, they were just added for the tour, to flesh out the sound.

Thanks for your input. Somehow, Mick's take on it in his book leads me, fwiw, to think that they were considered to be "members" of the band at the time, rather than backing musicians (like Nigel Watson, Brett Tuggle, Asante, Steve Thoma amongst others) albeit just for parts of the Heroes tour. That they never recorded anything with the band muddies it slightly.

I guess part of the problem is that there is also a distinction between who was ever legally part of the band, rather than simply artistically- presumably like Brunning, Vito, Mason, Bramlett and maybe Burnette, Weston & Walker. I don't suppose that even Nicks and Buckingham were legally part of the band, rather than hired hands right from December 31st 1974. They were put on a salary, weren't they?

The tour poster that I've seen just uses the back sleeve picture from HAHTF.

I look at it like a law firm. There are para legals (i.e. Tuggle, Heywood, et. al.) and attorneys, which are divided into associates (Mason, Bramlett, Burnette, et. al.) and partners (Mick, John, Christine, et. al.).

Yeah so Hunt & Graves were the para legals. :) S&L were on a salary to start but were considered members. After the legal stuff it's understandable them being afraid to trust others (and that's probably why they made it out to them like it was a temp to perm thing), but they knew they could survive as a quartet, and let's be honest, that was the intention once Welch left and they tried to initially get (just) Lindsey. I think Bob said at his Q&A that he did have the option of staying with S&L joining but he chose not to. So the "partners" must have drawn that line in the sand, 4 minimum members, but more is OK (i.e. when they brought in extra hands e.g. Danny, Walker, etc.).

They started out as associates and became partners in the firm.

Not necessarily. I think Mick wanted to ask Lindsey to join even before Bob left the band. I think he felt, based on what he heard in "Frozen Love," that Lindsey's playing style would be a great fit for the band.

Then Bob left and finding another guitarist became a necessity, and that's when he got Lindsey (and Stevie by default). It would seem reasonable that after Stevie and Lindsey were on board, Mick gave Bob another chance to reconsider leaving (hey Bob, look, we have a new guitarist and girl singer...wanna stay), but Bob said no.

I'd be curious as to what conversations happened from December 1, 1974 (last HAHTF show) through February 1, 1975.

That's something that Peter Green started when he asked Jeremy Spencer to join the band. Peter didn't want to be the lone frontman, and thus the band's never had one.

There's some evidence that the band had made it known when they were performing that Doug Graves was a member of Fleetwood Mac in 1974- listen to the announcement at the start of this clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMnRXv9ljaw

Maybe Pete Frame should update the family tree? Or maybe not...

Sorry, don't know how to embed the video.

Not that Wikipedia is always the most reliable source, but their entry on Fleetwood Mac includes an interesting late-'74 quote from Doug Graves:

I think they just wanted to introduce the people playing the show. Don Kirshner introduced them as the ORIGINAL Fleetwood Mac.

Remember, they were trying to reestablish that they (Mick, John, Christine, and Bob) were indeed the REAL Fleetwood Mac.

Never saw that before. I wonder if he was really asked to become a member and the others changed their minds, or if he just misunderstood the situation. It seems odd that the band would add somebody and it not be in the music magazines, even in 1974. Even Stevie and Lindsey joining got mentioned. I'd love to read the article in full.

Was Bobby Hunt the keyboardist responsible for the amazing organ work on "Believe Me" during the Sausalito session? If so, he is waaaaaaaaaaaay more than merely Bob's black friend, Mick Fleetwood.

Well, there's a copy of that issue on eBay if you're interested:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/MELODY-MAKER...item4d177000d8

I don't know that I'm THAT interested, although I'd be curious to read Bill Bruford's review of Santana.

It's not Don Kirshner doing the announcement in the clip I mentioned above

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMnRXv9ljaw

He says "and tonight we're very happy to present Mick Fleetwood, John McVie, Christine McVie, Bob Welch & Doug Graves- in other words the real Fleetwood Mac."


I can't make out what he says his name is. Can anyone make it out or recognise the photo?

Oh, the picture is of Mitchel Reed, found by googling "disc jockey WMCA"

I know. I was referring to when Kirshner introduced the band on Rock Concert.

Agreed, but I was thinking more of Danny in the sense that they were happy having Jeremy there, but had no problem "adding" to the core but didn't want to go lower than a certain amount (apart from playing as a trio during PG's songs when they were a quartet).

Also, it would be strange to add Graves or Hunt as member(s) at that point since that would've confused matters in terms of getting people to understand who the real FM was at that time (something they clearly wanted to establish with HAHTF) as new fans would say "this guy (Graves/Hunt) isn't on the older albums" whereas it would be easily understandable to new fans if just Welch/MF/JM/CM were the only ones there since they had been in the band for a while by that time etc. so maybe Mick meant if things worked out they could be officially added later?

I wonder if Mick thought Christine was going to leave soon since she was the last person to agree to move to the US and even if things did go well she might leave anyway as it was well known by then that she didn't like that lifestyle to begin with so he wanted to have 2 keyboard candidates in the wings in case she left. Not that this answers the vacant guitar slot after Welch left issue but you could be right on the possible conversations between Dec '74-Feb '75).

John

I had read somewhere recently that Doug Graves (and probably Bobby Hunt) were secured for the tour because the band decided Christine should be more visible and upfront onstage, rather than stuck behind a large bank of keyboards. This makes some sense. Up to that pint she was pretty much in the semi-background.

But it also seems the lack of a second guitarist--a first for the band in 1974--necessitated filling out the sound.

I found something that looks like Bobby Hunt's old website at

http://archive.is/90Tu

On it it says Upon returning to Los Angeles Bobby was invited by Bob Welch
to work with Fleetwood Mac. Following these tours Bobby
resumed working with his organ trio. so "work with" would appear to not be a claim for membership.

I haven't found anything out about any recent activities from Bobby as the site is now defunct, but I've emailed him, just to ask if he has any memories from that time that he may care to share with us. It's worth a try. I'll let you know if anything transpires.

I believe Bobby Hunt was a member of (possibly the leader of) the band Head West, with which Bob Welch played before joining Fleetwood Mac. They were a soul/funk band if I remember correctly.

I find the idea of putting Christine more "upfront" to be a little surprising. Did they actually do that during the Heroes tour? It doesn't seem she would have wanted to abandon her post behind the keyboards. I think the bootlegs from that tour sound weirdly non-Fleetwood-Mac-ish with the aggressive, funky piano (nothing at all like any of the keyboard sounds previously created by any Fleetwood Mac keyboardist).

Both Bobby Hunt & Doug Graves were specifically hired to play organ & synthesizers. Christine stayed strictly on piano & electric piano.

I think Mick has the chronology backwards...Doug Graves started the tour, but Bobby Hunt finished the tour. I saw them on one of their last shows of the tour in December '74 Hunt was there. When I was in the audience for the Don Kirshner taping (which was in late August/early September), Doug Graves was playing (complete with his sparkly silver sports coat).


RIP Doug Graves.

That is very interesting to hear, ChiliD, thanks. Maybe Doug was hired as a member (artistically, at least) and was then fired over some reason that we'll never find out about. It would explain his comments about expecting to work on a post-Heroes album. And of course, Doug was an engineer on Heroes so logically, the band would have asked him to join for the tour first. Don Kirshner and Mitchel Reed announcing the five of them as members at that point would make sense in that context. Then Bob Welch called up his old friend Bobby Hunt to finish the tour as a backing keyboardist to fill in for what Doug had been doing. How's that for a theory?

Maybe we should start an unofficial campaign to get Doug Graves posthumously recognised as a 17th member of the Mac.

By that logic, doesn't that mean that Brett Tuggle, and all the rest of the FM orchestra, are members?

Well, Neale DID co-write "Come" with Lindsey...

No, I don't think so. The point I was trying to explore was whether Doug Graves was actually a part of the band rather than just one of the many backing musicians that have toured with them over the years. The Melody Maker quote mentioned earlier in the thread- It came to me as a shock when Mick asked me to join but I am enjoying playing live with the band, and hopefully will start a new studio album with the band soon, illustrates that he at least may have thought he was a member of Fleetwood Mac at the time. OK, he never appeared on an album as a credited member and obviously something happened in 1974 to prevent that occurring, but that doesn't mean he wasn't a member of the band per se.

I can't think of anyone else (bar Sheryl Crow, pardon me while I have a quick chortle, and the fake Mac) who claimed to have joined the band but who hadn't.

No.

Make that, HELL NO.

Although, it does lead to an interesting "What if..."

What if Bob stayed, Doug became an official member, AND Stevie and Lindsey were brought in?

WHAT is the difference? They've all played live with FM, so I don't see how he is ranked above any of the other auxiliary players....

This.

I think it just came down to interpretation (that Doug saw it as a slam dunk and I think Mick at that time thought it was more if Christine left then Doug/Hunt would've been offered the keyboard position in the band, as a member, and all that, but that didn't happen so...).

John

Like Billy Preston was to the Beatles? Well, maybe not, but I feel like I now know more than I could have wanted about these two briefly associated musicians. :woohoo:

I suppose that post-Weston there may have been the feeling of Bob needing someone else up front on stage, at least it makes sense to me. Dave Walker was a huge presence on stage going by various live appearance photos, so in a way they were probably still recovering from that in 1974... neither John nor Christine McVie were about to start jumping around and doing the splits... should've tried keeping Dave... "would you like to try wearing this silver sports coat"... good thing Stevie Nicks came along to twirl around some or they'd never have lasted post-Welch as a live attraction. :lol:

Yep. No doubt at all that FM would be a better band today if that had occurred. :)

Bobby Hunt and Doug Graves: Fact, not members
 

Bobby Hunt and Doug Graves were never members of FM. They were paid players. I talk to Bobby quite often and he is an amazing person and a musician. He will tell you that Christine McVie was the reason that Bob left FM. Fact! Also, he played with Bob before both of them were with FM. Bob brought him to the band. I know this because we are all good friends. Just ask him if you really want to know the truth. Bob Welch adored Bobby Hunt and his talent!

Thanks for this, Mrs Welch. In his book, Mick says that Doug replaced Bobby, but ChiliD reckons he's got his timeline mixed up and that it was the other way round. Do you know why Doug was let go? From some of the quotes I've seen, Doug seemed to be under the impression that he was on the point of formally joining the band. Just interested. I appreciate this was a long time ago...

Replacements
 

I wish I knew the answer to that question, but I can call Bobby Hunt and some others that were really there and would tell the truth and find out.

They are not official members at all. They were hired support musicians for that one tour. That's all. A blip.

???? I don't understand your "problem." It's pretty clear. All the people you cited above were official band members. Any ancillary support for their live shows are not considered official members. For instance, Lori and Sharon -- yes they are part of the touring band, but not official members of the group itself.

Bob Brunning was just a stand in for John.

Can't image: "Ladies and Gentlemen, Welcome Fleetood Mac: Lindsey! Stevie! Christine! Mick! John! Lori! Sharon! Brett! Lighting Guy! Sound Guy! Stevie's Dog!

There is a clear distinction between band members and support players. Lots of big bands have support players. Sometimes they are part of the touring bands for years on end. They are associates of the band, not members.

Ok so imagine that Rick Vito and Billy Burnette had quit after the Tango tour but before they had ever actually featured on an album. Would that make them members or hired hands? The intention was there when they were hired to make them members of the band, but perhaps it didn't work out, perhaps there was a personality clash, etc, and they had departed.

As for Mr Brunning, he was hired perhaps as a temporary member, but he was still a member and if John McVie hadn't left Mayall, Brunning might have still been a member of the band right up until he passed away.

I'm not saying Doug Graves or Bobby Hunt were members, but perhaps, especially in Doug Graves case, they were told they were in the band as members (which there is at least some evidence to suggest HE thought he was in the band permanently).

Yes, because FM held a presser specifically to introduce the new members of FM (Billy/RV). Take someone like Dave Donato of Black Sabbath. Nothing he recorded with them was ever released (I think he just did demos) but he was announced as a member (I guess Dave Walker could fall into this category with them as well, though they did make 1 public TV appearance when he was there).

Agreed on Brunning, though I'd be surprised if he'd have stayed with FM that long, maybe until '69, at a push but I guess we'll never know for sure.

John

Dave Walker in Black Sabbath is a good example, he only did one live appearance, but I think he is still generally listed as a member of the band not as part of a "touring band" or whatever.