Tusk v. SYW: What's Lindsey's Best Work?
 

Now that we're beginning to hear SYW in its entirety, what is the reaction?

Is this as good, better or inferior to Lindsey's work on Tusk? I'm talking from a songwriting, musicianship and production standpoint.

Well, I think the somewhat stark Tusk was the child and the full blown and rich SYW is the grown adult. Also, computer editing and other tech marvels have greatly added to SYW what was not really possible in Tusk.

I don't know, I think Tusk sounded the way it did because Lindsey wanted it to, not because technology wouldn't allow something else to emerge. He said he made a deliberate effort to "go for slop" on several of his songs on Tusk. It was a stylistic choice. Say You Will (which I haven't listened to yet) is a different stylistic choice. Just my two cents.

First of all- I like the new album, it's great!
Now regarding the comparison Carne asked for...
Well Tusk is outstanding and will always be. I too think this is in its entirety the best album since tusk. But I don't see the musical connection to tusk that much.
Of course there are some "weird" songs:
Murrow
Red rover
Come
Say goodbye

But there are conventional pop approach songs also (which is not bad but different)
What`s the world
Miranda
Peacekeeper
Steal your heart away
Bleed to love her

So the "envelope" thing is a little overestimated imo. It`s a mix- on tusk it was more one direction.
On Tusk I like every LB song regarding the songwriting and the singing. On Say you will it`s different. I hate Miranda. It's sung O.K. but the production and the chorus is not my kind. What really amazes me- I think the singing parts are not always the best ones. Bleed to love her- the voice sounds weak there, the song also drags. Compare the bridge to it's original You do or you don't. It's sung better imo. Also the singing on Say goodbye... Some parts are changed to the GOS version and I think the voice was better there.
What is the point? Did he leave the voice machine out, did he use one but different...? I don`t know. It`s just I love the sound of his (studio)voice normally and I think it's unique- that`s one aspect why I'm such a huge fan and these 2 songs are somehow not that great. On other songs the voice sounds great so it`s either because of the time frame of several years he had been working on these or just because of a different production. What are your impressions regarding this?

He did a great job in producing Stevies songs and in contributing to them as a singer also.:wavey:

Stefan, keep in mind the sound quality of the streaming file you heard is not that great. So you think you may be hearing lower-quality vocals but it might just be overal lower quality sound.

I have not decided yet if I like this more than Tusk. Chances are I won't. Tusk will always by the delightfully quirky Tusk. I like the ****-kicking twang of some of the Lindsey songs, which SYW has none of. SYW seems more commercial to me.

But let's keep in mind that Tusk too had some very commercial songs: Sara and Thing About Me. They were few and far between, but they were there.

This is a good question and the answer is I don't know-not sure they can be compared. Tusk has Christine in it-I'd kind of have to listen to it without her songs to get an idea of what it would sound like if it was just Lindsey and Stevie.

This is certainly the best since Tusk, IMHO.

Yea, this is a very good question, and I'd be very interested to hear Lindsey answering it!

This album certainly doesn't follow the "safe/return to pop" methods of Mirage and TITN, but I don't think it's as daring as Tusk. Even though several of the songs definitely DO "push envelopes", they're not, IMO, as wacky as some of the Tusk songs. The thing is, SYW has pushed envelopes for Fleetwood Mac/Lindsey, whereas Tusk pushed envelopes for music.

I think Lindsey has definitely come a long way musically since 1987, and this is certainly some of his best work. If I was to take LB's tracks from Tusk and put them onto one disc, and do the same with SYW, I would definitely prefer the SYW disc, but with respect to both albums in their entirety, I prefer Tusk.

:wavey: :wavey: :wavey:

Hmmm.....
 

Yeah, Tusk is the epitome of "wierd" Lindsey in FM and this album, although unique, is not, IMO, wierd in ANY WAY!! I think LYRICALLY, he's on another plane, these songs are MIND BOGGLING...esp. Red Rover and Come!!! I cannot stop listening to Red Rover, even tho I've had this song for well over a year!! LOL The CD version is just THAT much more AWESOME!!!! Now that I know the lyrics and made my interp, it means more to me than before. It's NOW OFFICIALLY my second fave FM song. I have been reading that most people hate it!! EGADS PEEPS!!!! :eek: How can ANYONE HATE THIS?!?!!?! It's BRILLIANCE!!!! I guess I like DARKNESS....I always have.

I guess it takes a special person to GET Lindsey. ;) LMAO!! Too much thinking involved. :rolleyes:

I am PROUD to be Lindsey's fan. I feel like I have a secret, ya know, like I know something special that not many others know!! I've always liked bands/music that not many others around me love and sometimes, I just wanna cry because they don't GET it and I want everyone to feel what I feel when I listen to the music. It's otherworldly and IMVHO, makes me feel closer to God. I know that sounds wierd to some, but it's true. Music and dance have a prominent place in the Bible, btw. :nod:

Yes, that is a little surprise for me also. I supposed a lot of people would have difficulties in getting into the song Murrow because of the high singing and the guitar solo. And Come would be controversial too although I don`t regard it as weird- it's just a rocker and not typical FM (some people still expect soft pop and ballads and don't want anything different from the group) But I`m really surprised how many people don`t appreciate Red Rover. I am too wondering how one can not like it. It's great guitar playing and the beginning raising chorus line has this great and somehow ethereal far away sounding manipulated voice part. I really thought this track would be appreciated by a lot of critics and listeners but even here on the board it's the most anti- mentioned. Or especially here? ;) I don't know, the tastes seem to be very different. But some mention, that they even think Silver girl is a better one... I mean really...! :laugh:
I am too very surprised about the quite bad review average which the album achieved. At first I believed that these were just single opinions but now it seems nobody really praises it, some say not bad and some make a bad review. Btw how was this concerning Tusk? Anybody remembers that, then please info me.

I still believe that they did not a good job by creating this running order (regarding the broader public and some critics reaction)

I like the album, but I can hardly compare it to Tusk in terms of style. Tusk has rare instrumentation on LB's tracks and follow one certain direction. (I always skip Christines songs on Tusk, as they don't fit onto that regarding style and idea whereas Stevies songs built the fitting counterpart there) Here on SYW he covers several different styles and jumps from pop to weirdness with full instrumentation. So Tusk is stranger imo- Say you will probably has no guiding line or however you may call it, what some people irritates. I think some of the critics are right by stating that it feels like 2 solo albums put together.
Perhaps I say it because I knew the GOS stuff so well before (but not the Stevie songs) and perhaps they say it because they read some of Lindseys interviews before :laugh: but I think it somehow is right and probably renders more difficulty in getting access to the flow of that album?

Tusk versus SYW
 

Yeah, Lindsey used kleenex boxes and chairs scooting on the floor for Tusk, on SYW, he doesn't do that, as far as we know. LOL It's a totally separate, unique musical experience than Tusk. It will be cool to listen to Tusk then switch to SYW. I think I'll do that later today. :)

To answer your question, Stefan, Tusk got panned by plenty of people, while others praised it. Even those who said the music was good called it calculated and self-indulgent (which, i don't see as a bad thing)

Definitely, SYW. I know he was going for a "low-tech" approach during Tusk, but SYW is just so much more sophisticated and complex that, IMO, it blows Tusk out of the water.

It's a tough comparison, and I haven't made up my mind. Lindsey's songs on SYW are some of his best ever.

Ultimately, I may like Tusk as a whole better, but I will probably like Lindsey's SYW songs better. So it's a toss up as of now.

I'm not sure how they might be compared.... as Lindsey would say, each of these albums has its own space in time, its own circumstances of orgination. His recent remark about SYW striking a balance between the popfest of Rumours and the artisitic integrity of Tusk... If I had to say which is his best production, arrangement, guitar playing .... the 18 SYW songs blow Tusk out of the water for me.. but I still don't see it as a fair comparison.

SYW is really a stand-alone endeavour for Lindsey. Tusk was very self-consciously a reaction to Rumours, so it is flawed for that, and it seems Lindsey thinks the same.

But thinking about this has made me think... what if Lindsey hadn't been freaked out by Rumours, and hadn't made Tusk... :distress: :( Let's not go there.

Bite your tongue!! LOL
 

NO TUSK!!!?!? :eek: ACK!!! LOL Yeah, let's not even THINK about that. :distress: I agree that it's a different time and place in history....Tusk is greatness and so is SYW. I love em BOTH, they are BOTH relevant, they are BOTH unique. :nod:

It's funny because I think Tusk and SYW are almost flawless albums in that there's only ONE song on each that is okay, but is just eh. On SYW, it's Silver Girl and on Tusk, it's Not That Funny. I don't HATE these songs, they are just my least fave on each album.

BRAVO LINDSEY!!

OK... "Think About Me", yes, but "Sara" is not very commercial. I remember a poster (I think it was you! :D) saying a while ago that it was weird that "Sara", a very uncommercial song, without a chorus, had reached so high in the charts. If there is another commercial tune in Tusk that has to be "Sisters Of The Moon", which, just like "Think About Me", did not go anywhere as singles.

But that's a minor discussion. To me, in comparison, Tusk still remains Lindsey Buckingham's best approach in production. It's more energetic, more unique, if you should say. Christine's songs are taken in a way (except for "Think About Me") that blends perfectly with that "weirdness", and Stevie's songs are just the perfect addition to that mix. Say You Will showcases two songwriters, without that "bridge" that Christine's tunes had in Tusk, that bluesy/pop relax moment, with less tension and less strain. Say You Will just flows, and, while some of the songs are close to perfection, Tusk works better as a whole because Christine was there. My humble opinion.



Song of the moment - Say Goodbye

There's an interesting point here... a lot of people (my self included) have criticized Tusk for lacking integrity. While the individual songs are very well done and at times brilliant, the album itself does not come together as a cohesive whole. Lindsey's songs are loud, edgy, and experimental, whereas Stevie's are soft and dark. It is clear that Lindsey wanted to do something absolutely and completely un-Rumours-like, but if you just listen to Stevie's songs, all you hear is very Rumours-like songwriting with more advanced production.

SYW has a similar feel in that Lindsey writing edgy sociopolitical songs and Stevie sticking to her classic personal songs. But unlike on Tusk, SYW has Lindsey and Stevie not going in such diametrically opposite directions. I attribute this to the fact that Lindsey doesn't go nearly as crazy on SYW (WTWCT, Say Goodbye, SYHA) as he does on Tusk, while Stevie's songs on SYW(Illume, Everybody Finds Out) have a slightly harder edge to them than on Tusk.

One thing about Tusk is that it has a weird-for-weirdness-sake sort of feel to it, i.e. the "Why? Because I can" mentality concerning the production. I think that since then Lindsey has grown more mature in both his songwriting and production, losing that "rebel without a cause" attitude and using weird effects to make a point rather than just because he has the technology to. This makes SYW more cohesive and more accessible.

i'm not really sure which one i like better....they are both so similar, yet so different. SYW is definitely more commercial than Tusk. SYW also, IMO, isn't as risque as Tusk was. Sure, it has it's share of "weird" songs, but the entire album isn't totally out there. Tusk is brilliance....i love that fact that Lindsey made it as opposite to Rumours as possible. i think that Tusk, as a whole, pushed more buttons than SYW is going to. but there are certain parts to SYW that are just as deep/strong as the songs on Tusk. also, i think that not having Chris on SYW plays a part. Like Christian said, i think that Christine's songs on Tusk help lighten the mood a little and they tie the album together. i have to agree with the critics when i say that SYW feels kind of like 2 solo albums smashed together. not that that really matters; i still love it. so, i guess what i've been trying to say is that i think Tusk and SYW are both great,lol.

I really really like both of these albums, but i'm going to say Tusk is superior only because i'm a sucker for Lindsey's Tusk songs. I think they are magnificent! Not that his work on Say You Will is any less great, but Tusk (to me at least) sounds so cutting edge, even now, that I just love it.

I like both, but I'll say Tusk. I think the starkness of style & irregularity of song structures make it more innovative from a production standpoint.
To me, the greatest difference between album styles was mentioned by an earlier poster. Stevie's Tusk songs are often dark and faint. She doesn't let loose vocally on any of them. Sara sounds almost effortless, as do her other songs (Sisters pushes the line, but doesn't cross from reflective to passionate). The SYW album sounds more commercial in this respect, with Stevie offering a broader range. I'm not sure if it's Lindsey or Stevie who is responsible for the difference in vocals between RTTG and Goodbye Baby.
BTW, to me Think about Me & Honey Hi are Tusk's most commercial pieces.

- Jake

I'm coming to the conclusion that my biggest problem with SYW is its sheen. On some songs, especially Stevie's contributions, the 80s gloss is very present and, frankly, off-putting. If Lindsey had produced the songs more like Steal Your Heart Away and Say You Will, the whole album would have sounded better.

The production excesses of Running Through the Garden and Murrow, for instance, are turning a lot of people off. Add to that the indulgence of things like Come, and it's no wonder that the album is getting a fair amount of negative reaction. Mind you, I like Murrow, but I understand why a lot of people won't appreciate it.

I have also noticed that I have to fiddle with the treble button from song to song because of production differences in the tracks. For instance, Illume has a ch-ch cymbal sound that is a bit too upfront in the mix. Should have been toned down.

Ultimately, I think I will like Tusk better.

You know...this has been on my mind quite a bit. I'd like to get some reactions on Come, because it's just so different from the songs Lindsey has created in the past. Did people have the same reaction to I'm So Afraid when it first came out?

It just seems more like a showcase of what he can do, rather than an expression. The guitar is the focal point, and the song is second place. I don't get it. :distress: Isn't this the opposite of what he's said about guitar players, such as Eddie Van Halen and others?

I'm really trying to be open about this song. :confused:

I think ISA fit right in with the early to mid 70's heavy guitar rock and roll bands like Led Zepplin, Bread, etc. So, I do not think that song was an envelope pusher at the time.

As for Come, I like this song because I think it is very progressive and I particularly like the way he juxtaposes the heavy metal esq. guitar work and the softer parts of the song. Having said that, I do not care all that much for the way the lyrics are delivered because I do not in general care for voice manilpulation like this or really in any other way. But, LB seems to love it as he uses it all over SYW and has repeatedly used it in the past. All in all, I would give LB an A+ for the concept of Come and a C- for its ability to add in any significant way to a pop record like Say You Will.

Note: I know LB has said he loves to push envelopes and that he probably was not going for a pop record, but that is nonetheless what SYW is marketed as being. Moreover, he certainly wrote pop songs for this record (Peacekeeper, Steal Your Heart Away, Bleed to Love Her, Miranda (somewhat), etc.). So, I can get why the critics has dismissed appropriateness of some of the experimental/progressive songs like Come (which again I like).

I feel the same way. I remember Richard Dashut saying that for Tusk, they would get the song to something that sounded terrific and then Lindsey would say "Great, now let's turn all the knobs the other way and do the exact opposite." He wasn't going for what sounded terrific, he was going for what sounded different.

That said, Tusk is certainly a great album. But I think the experimentaion in SYW makes a lot more sense and seems to be there to add meaning rather than to be "different" or "experimental." I think that's an important distinction.

I really love anything that rocks as hard as "Come" or "EFO," regardless of how people might describe them as "self-indulgent excessiveness" or "80s sounding." I don't buy either of those descriptions. I just know I like them.

Nancy, what you like, what speaks to you, is what matters. To me, Tusk sounds timeless because it lacks that sheen. If you'd put it in a CD player in the early 90s when all the roots rockers were flooding the airwaves, it would have blended right in. Right now, we're going through a strange phase in radio, which I fear may have a permanent detrimental effect. But if you throw in a Tusk song or even a Rumours track, they will blend in too.

You can't really say that about Tango or Go Insane because of the gloss.

It seems to me it is the gloss in SYW to which people are reacting. I believe if it had been toned down for the whole album, more like Steal Your Heart Away and Say You Will, the reaction would be universally better.

Does it matter? From a sales point of view, probably. I like the album, regardless, but I would have dumped about three or four tracks.

Oh, I so wish that I felt the same way as you and Nancy do about this song. :sorry: I like most of his songs on Go Insane...or the songs that were considered envelope pushers at that time. I'm just finding it hard to appreciate this particular song for what it is. I'm really trying. :nod:

Overall, it's difficult to choose between Say You Will and Tusk. I like both albums for different reasons. Tusk will always be timeless. I guess we'll have to wait another 30 years to see how well Say You Will holds up.

:laugh: :laugh:

Also, I really got Stevie's reference to Tusk (song and album) as being a communal experience and a tribal thing of the tribe going to a sacred mountain, etc. I think that communal aspect is for good or bad missing on SYW. I mean although the songs were very different (esp. LB's songs), to me Tusk sounded like it had some common ground, theme, or feeling, which I think SYW does not have. Part of the reason for this could be that you can sort of hear it in that some of the songs on SYW sort of sound as if they were done at different times and then added to, and then tied together in one package as opposed to Tusk, which brilliantly sounds somewhat to me as if the songs sort of "suddenly" resulted from an all night, or, in the case of Tusk, year long, booze and pot smokin' hippie jam session :laugh:

I was thinking about this. When you listen to SYW, you kind of jump off the 70s with What's the World Coming To, make a quick stop in the late 80s with Murrow, then jump to now with Illume. The album stays on a 90s-to-now feel until it hits Running Through the Garden and Silver Girl.

Songs that have a contemporary sound are Say You Will, Bleed to Love Her, Illume and Steal Your Heart Away. Years from now, these will be hard to place within a time context if you don't know when they came out. I would even say that for What's the World Coming To, despite its 70s-ish sound. Then you have the weirdo stuff, like Red Rover, Say Goodbye, etc. These may well become timeless songs, unless they become so closely identified with this time period, as the Tango songs became with theirs, that we'll always say, Oh, those are so 2003.

Time will tell. But I suspect the treatment Lindsey gave to things like Gotta Get Away, The Singer Not the Song, Someone's Gotta Change Your Mind and Twist of Fate might have given songs like Running Through the Garden a more contemporary feel.

Overall, what matters is if you enjoy the damn album.

Yes, but in some ways this experience is similar to the making of SYW. In those studio clips leading up to the release of the album, you could definately see this tribal union between John, Mick, and Lindsey. They had this type of union during the making of Tusk...or maybe it just appeared that way. ;)

I didn't get a chance to actually sit and listen to SYW, with my attention just on the music, until last night. The first thing that popped into my mind was that it was another Tusk. Not so much in that the songs sounded the same, but in that the idea was the same. Lindsey has his songs, which appear to feature mostly him, and they seem a little more inventive than the usual mainstream tune. Layered vocals, lots of interesting production ideas, etc. There is a big difference between the more mainstream songs on this album ("Peacekeeper" obviously, among others) and the ones that Lindsey just went off with ("Murrow Turning Over in His Grave" comes to mind for me). I can't say which is better because Tusk is my favorite FM album and I haven't had the chance to explore SYW very much at all yet, but I agree with the comparison of the two, because I see a similarity in Lindsey's song style in the two albums.

OK, guys, I'm getting close to making a determination here. I know you've all been wondering. Come on, admit it.

I was listening to Tusk on the way to work. I have to say, it was almost like having a weight lifted off you musically. While SYW has some brilliant stuff, it's almost too intense. The music slaps you around, grabs you by the ankles, let's you hang upside down, tosses you from left to right, spins you and pins you.

Of course, that's cool in many ways.

But there is something terribly reassuring and comforting in the simplicity of Tusk. Even the textures of songs like Storms and Sara seem far more tasteful than the glossy stuff that appears on SYW.

I'm thinking maybe production was a little much on some of SYW. Interestingly, that's never bothered me about Cradle, nor did it bother me about Tango. The only problem with Tango now, in retrospect, is its 80s sheen.

Then again, in five years I may look at SYW and feel the same way about it as I do about Tusk now. But for now, Tusk remains on top.

I totally agree with all of this CV. Tusk has a feeling about it which is superbly unique, and forever will be. Say You Will is a great album, and separately, all the songs, with the exception of Silver Girl, are fantastic. However, just like Fleetwood Mac itself, for Tusk the whole is definitely greater than the sum of the parts.

:wavey: :wavey: :wavey:

I agree Carne...
 

Tusk is a MASTERPIECE!! Stevie's songs are soooooo good on Tusk, they are her collective FM songs masterpiece. She peaked on the album, IMO. Lindsey's songs are so unique and wierd, they go off onto tangents and out in left field somewhere...when I listen to Tusk, I'm all "Um, Lindsey, where did ya go?" LOL When I listen to SYW, I go "DANG, Lindsey, THERE you are!!" So, I get what you mean, Carne in terms of soothing vs. manic. LOL

Although, it's hard to compare an album from 1979 (a classic) to this new album (not YET a classic) and we need a good 10 years I think to REALLY compare the two. Stacking it up against songs of today (LMAO...yeah, right...it's HEADS ABOVE ANYTHING on the radio right now...my bad. LOL) is gonna be easier later down the road.

I love Tango and it's 80's (appropriate) sound. It DOES sound a tad dated at times, but overall, it STILL has a unique sound to it. BUT YET, some albums you NEED to sound like a particular decade because we would get confused!! :laugh:

I think that the true sign of a great piece of work is one that you can listen to at any time and in its entirety. I can't sit through SYW as an entire album...I either find myself skipping around to specific songs or just skipping the majority of the Stevie songs. On the other hand, I've been listening to Tusk a LOT lately and I can't get enough of it. There's something for everyone on that album and as eclectic as it is, it fits together well. After almost 25 years, it still holds up and can get in my head like most other things can't. I've been singing "The Ledge" for about three straight days now, enough said...

Ali

I think both albums kind of stand on their own. Its hard to distinguish between the two in regards to which was best. At the time when Tusk was put out yes, it was the "new" sound that Lindsey put out there. Its not one of my favorite albums from FM. I really love OOTC. But back to the Mac. I like how Lindsey incorporated his style with a little of Stevie's and a little of the Mac's. Say You Will is a great album and shows how they have grown....

Tamara:wavey: