Is Carlos Santana really all that?
 

Since there have been a number of technical questions being asked and answered so well lately, I have to ask this question because I am already sick to death of that "Game of Love" song with Michele Branch.
Every time I turn on the radio for the last few days, there it is blaring at me. I think my brain will ooze out of my ears if I have to hear it every hour.

So, all you guitar players, please tell me.....
Is Santana really that great a player? Is his technical ability really that superior to my beloved Lindsey, or is it just radically different?
I just don't get the "vibe" or emotion off of his playing that I get from LB, so maybe it's that I just don't connect with him. Santana's playing just sort of lays there as far as I'm concerned, whereas Lindsey's grabs me and forces me to listen.

Everyone thinks Santana is just the be all and end all of guitarists. Has he just been very good at marketing himself a la Martha Stewart or Thomas Kinkade?
I don't think his playing is anything to get all that excited over.
Why does he have such a reputation?
Please fill me in on whatever it is that I am missing.

My criteria for being a great guitarist is if you can tell exactly who's playing in just a few notes; someone who's SOUND is like their DNA. Carlos is definitely in that category.

BB King
Albert King
Freddie King
Buddy Guy
Eric Clapton
Peter Green
Lindsey Buckingham
Mark Knopfler
Steve Howe
Jimi Hendrix
Carlos Santana
Eddie Van Halen
Stevie Ray Vaughan
Neil Young
Joe Satriani
Steve Vai

All have that "fingerprint" tone that makes them recognizable upon hearing only a few notes of their playing. Not all are "technical wizards" (i.e. Neil Young), but you sure can tell who's playing a mile away.


There are things about Carlos' playing I don't care for (his insistance on overly drenching his guitar with reverb...but, then that's part of his "trademark"), and he's not anywhere near the guitarist he WAS 20 or so years ago...due to that he's found his niche and has gotten comfortable. Back in the mid-70s, when he was playing more jazz-fusion material (Like the "Love, Devotion & Surrender" album he did with Mahavishnu John McLaughlin), he had some INCREDIBLE chops...since then he's found a simpler sound and has stuck with it. Like Peter Green & Eric Clapton, he CAN play "like he used to", but CHOOSES not to.

Thanks, ChiliD. That does help me to understand it better, and I think that reverb thing you were talking about is what I don't like about him either. And I sure can tell most of those guys from just a few notes.

I didn't recognize all the names on your list, but I guess I have a little research to do. My 9 year-old is getting ready to start guitar lessons after pestering me about it for about a year. He says he likes the way the strings feel under his fingers. I'm going to let him see what he can do. I read music myself, but I am going to have to learn about all this guitar stuff, so that is why I have been reading these threads. They are very interesting.

We are going guitar shopping this afternoon, as a matter of fact.

Hey, what about Keith Richard? He seems like another one who is no technical genius but has his own style.

So true, Chili. I bought Supernatural a few years ago because I thought it was a neat idea to record a CD with a bunch of other artists. But I have to admit that I have not listened to it in more than a year. Now comes another one, using the same formula, and I won't go near it. Interestingly, I have yet to hear the Michele Branch song in full; I simply don't listen to the radio anymore.

A colleague brought over the new record, I popped it into my computer, skipped through a few songs, and all I heard was the same tired licks over and over. I believe Chili hit it right on the head: Carlos found a comfort zone and has stuck with it.

This is all the more reason to appreciate Lindsey's work. Even though the Gift of Screws music doesn't break new ground for the most part, he seems to have been able to blend all the stuff he's done in the past to as close to perfection as you can get.

Yeah I agree with chiliD there although I would add Slash to that list as well.

I've got Santana's new album, as well as Supernatural before it and although it is very good it does seem too manufactured. Santana has found a new market with his grammy winning style, I just hope he doesn't run it into the ground. ;)

Speaking as a guitarist not a listener, there is nothing "special" about his playing in the last few years to me. I do like the sounds he gets (I used to have a PRS guitar with the same pickups) again a personal thing, but he doesn't make my jaw drop like Lindsey or Knopfler do.

Good luck to him, he is distinctive and successful but he has gone too mainstream in style to pull anything radical with a guitar for my liking.


:wavey:

Sure!! My list wasn't complete by ANY stretch of the imagination. :)

Also:

Pete Townshend
Jeff Beck
Danny Kirwan
Chet Atkins
Les Paul
Charlie Christian
Wes Montgomery
Joe Pass
Brent Mason

(and, I'm starting to feel that Rick Vito is closing in on being included in this group...I've gotten to where I can pick him out, too!)

Nah...
 

Carlos ain't all that...to me. That new song with Michelle is okay, but his guitaring (to a novice, like myself, hehe. LMAO!) sounds "messy" at times, it sounds like he's just strumming with no kind of melodic consistency...like a 5 year old banging on a piano. I HATE when guitarists do that, no melody, just trying to be the fastest or whatever. *Yawn* :rolleyes:

Anywho, I can, however, tell it's him when he plays...which is what Chilid was saying...but do I really give a hoot? Nope. :laugh:

Lindsey is the ONLY person to EVER move me to tears with his guitar playing, that, my friends, makes him my favorite and IMO, the best. :nod::D

And...
 

...Ry Cooder.

My wife can pick Webb Wilder out of a pack of 100 guitar players...not that that's a GOOD thing; it's just that he's so BAD.:distress:

I have a few...
 

guitarist to add to your list chiliD:

Gary Moore (Has anyone heard his live performance of "While My Guitar Gently Weeps" that he did with George Harrison???)

Brian May (Anything he did Queen-wise is great IMO...)

Did anyone watch Conan O'Brien last night? Mark Knopfler was the musical performer and I just HAD to @#$%^& fall alseep just before he appeared...I hate when that happens...Brian J.

I would definitely not say that Santana is "the be all and end all of guitarists".

I don't find anything that he has done (at least since his "re-launch") to be that impressive.

In fact, I'd say the same about any guitarist who's currently in the "pop world"....

Definitely wasn't the case 20/30 years ago and before....

But I do agree that Santana does have a very distinctive tone and that goes a long way...mucho respect!:nod:

I agree with ChiliD's list, and all the additions, and would also like to add two additions of my own:

Hank Marvin (that signature Echorec tone is INSTANTLY recognisable!)

Prince

:wavey: :wavey: :wavey:

p.s. of all the guitarists mentioned, I think Brian May's tone is THE most instantly recognisable, simply because of that awesome 0, 800ms, 1600ms delay / triple amp set-up he's had forever.

Thanks for all this wonderful input and opinions, guys!
Since I mentioned this earlier in this thread, I just wanted to follow up for anyone that might be interested......
We are now the proud owners of a sweet youth size Signature Greg Bennett-designed black gloss-finish guitar.
My son walked around wearing it and strumming it all evening.

Lessons start tomorrow.

Right now it's cute.

I hope we're as in love with it five lessons from now as we are at the moment! lol!!

I agree...
 

"p.s. of all the guitarists mentioned, I think Brian May's tone is THE most instantly recognisable, simply because of that awesome 0, 800ms, 1600ms delay / triple amp set-up he's had forever."

...I love Brian May's tone, Which is like ya said is Most recognisable (He has been rumoured to be playing some of the leads on the "Maybe-this-decade" Guns 'N Roses release "Chinese Democracy")

...As for a rhythm player I always thought Tom Scholz of Boston had a very recognisable tone...But I guess those SRD "Rockmans" & Les Pauls caused that tone, Brian J.

Keith Richards wasn't even the best guitar player in the Rolling Stones, mick taylor had that distinction.
Santana is a great player but i don't like much of his new stuff, especially the collaborations with the likes of Michelle Branch, etc. Santana isn't a marketing genius, Clive Davis is. Davis was the head of Arista records who concocted "Supernatural".

Well, since Tom Scholz was the person who DESIGNED AND PATENTED the "Rockman" amp, I guess that would be true. ;)

Both Mark Knopfler & Billy Gibbons (of ZZ Top) were avid users of the Rockman amp (used as a pre-amp), too.

Main (but, not the ONLY) examples of each:

Knopfler: "Money For Nothing" (from "Brothers In Arms album)

Gibbons: "Rough Boy" (from the "Afterburner" album)

Thats what I meant...
 

about Mr.Scholz and the "Rockmans", but I didnt know he sold SRD back in 1997 though, That was a surprise to me to find out...Brian J.

PS-I forgot to add that the whole "Afterburner" album by ZZ Top is one of my all-time favorite albums mainly due to the songs "Rough Boy" & "Stages"

Re: I agree...
 

Brian, any idea as to when this album is going to actually come out?? I've been hearing dates for years and years now, and I was under the impression that it was definitely going to be released in October....so now when is the proposed release date? ("Madagascar" is awesome!)

:wavey: :wavey: :wavey:

Seteca...
 

...This is from a radio interview at KISW:

Q: It sounds like you've really nurtured relationships with these guys, and the new disc, "Chinese Democracy"… Do you have any idea when the fruits of those labors will come to harvest?

Axl Rose: "Sometime during the next year (February...tentatively). With the guys, I do have a really positive relationship with the individual members, and each one of them excites me with what they bring to it, creatively or just as a person, and how each one of them works really hard. Because I think anyone that watches this project at all also sees the abuse that this project goes through, and these guys shoulder that really, really well, and they don't have a problem dealing with it, and I have to just respect the hell out of that with these guys...But also, this show is something that is designed to be growing over the next couple of years. It's like, this is the start of something, but then remember, we will be putting out a record, and then, about a year or so after that, we'll be putting out ANOTHER one (They have reportedly anywhere from 60-100 songs already finished), so there'll be a lot more material added into the set with a lot more things going on. This is the beginning, and we need to be showing people a lot of the older material, but it will grow."

60-100 songs!!!!!!!!
 

Well...all I can say is...fingers crossed!:nod:

Thanks a lot for that Brian.:cool:

:wavey: :wavey: :wavey:

I don't know where to post this... so I guess here is good.... since you are talking about great guitarists.

Have any of you heard of Don Ross????

If not, I'd advise all of you (especially the guitar buffs) to check him out!!!!

You can get some of his stuff on Kazaa. Look up "Tight Trite Night", "Micheal, Micheal, Micheal", "Klimbim", and "3 Hands". You will not regret it!!!!!!!! I don't even know what you would classify his style as... very unique if you ask me. I've never heard anyone play the guitar like this.



Kate

Nope...! But I'll check him out on Kazaa...cheers!:cool:

:wavey: :wavey: :wavey:

Re: 60-100 songs!!!!!!!!
 

It'll be interesting.

But GNR without Slash is like Mac without Lindsey, great band but the genius is missing.

:nod: :distress: :nod: :wavey:

madformac...
 

I love you. :D LOL

Re: Re: 60-100 songs!!!!!!!!
 

As you know,:nod:, I totally agree with you...that signature sound of G n' R IS the sound of Slash's guitar...

However, I'd rather they were still around and making music, than to totally disband....if Madagascar is anything to go by, I look forward to the whole album...:)

And hey, although at the moment both parties would rather cut their own wrists, you never know, one day, maybe, just maybe, he might come back.;)

(Stranger things have happened, as we ALL know on THIS forum!)

:wavey: :wavey: :wavey:

Hey, Seteca,

I agree Madagascar sounds really good, I hope the new stuff is more like this and not that "End Of Days" type sound.

Slash hasn't ruled out a return to Guns. In fact he said he would love to rejoin the band eventually, he just wants Axl to get the ideas and music he is writing now out of his system first, then if there is agreement on the "musical differences" side of things he'll be back, and so will the record sales. :D

Wondergirl9847, I love you too! :D :laugh: :wavey:

I wished I had the faith y'all have...
 

But Slash isnt going to be in GnR ever again (Too many lawsuits/counter-lawsuits/"mudslinging"/etc. after he gave his notice and left the band have more-than-likely killed those chances...) It's sad because I liked the original lineup as much as anyone else but it's a permanent divorce...No chance for a reconciliation.

I have read several recent interviews where Axl has been offered tons of money for a reunion tour/album/etc but refuses to do it because he is concentrating on the current GnR lineup and he feels that the other former members would only be interested in a reunion for just the cash and nothing more and he doesnt feel they would really give their "all" to try to push the band foward...I really wished it would happen like everyone else, But being realistic it won't happen.

BUT also, Here is something that makes you still have faith for the future of REAL Rock-N-Roll; Slash, Duff McKagan, Matt Sorum & Izzy Stradlin are currently recording an album...All they need is a singer who could fit their type of music, Which isnt a "GnR revisited" scenario type of group...If you want to read more go to www.mygnr.com and click the "November 2002 News" icon and check out whats going on with this new lineup...

BTW, The new completed GnR tracks are very awesome in sound, Not the reported "Techno" sound that everyone has been "rumouring" about...(ie-"Chinese Democracy" has a killer riff which is very memorable...)

estranged4life, thanks for the info.

A Slash/Izzy/Duff/Matt album, sounds good, just need a great singer.

I seem to recall Faith No More needed a new singer, Mike Patton got the job and they went on to far greater things....

When Slash talked about rejoining Guns in the future that was about a year ago in Guitarist magazine, guess things have moved on. :laugh:

The best gig I've been to was a GNR gig. Milton Keynes 1993. Axl, Slash, Gilby, Izzy, Dizzy, Matt, Mike Monroe and Ronnie Wood. What a combo! 3 hours of screaming Les Pauls.

:wavey:

Re: I wished I had the faith y'all have...
 

I heard about this a month or so ago, and to say I can't WAIT is the understatement of the century....this is going to be awesome. Pretty much the original line-up minus Axl.....So Axl's gonna do his thing, and these guys are gonna do their new thing....the more material from all of them, the better. Regardless of what they say about it not being a "G n' R scenario", nothing can change the fact that the sound of G n' R was the sound of Slash (I was just listening to the Godfather Theme from '92..and it's just amazing how with that FIRST note...no bend....no other band....just him hitting one note, you INSTANTLY think SLASH/GnR), which means that that sound will go wherever Slash goes. And that's a GOOD thing.:nod:

:wavey: :wavey: :wavey:

I can't recall Lindsey ever saying anything about Django Reinhardt. Of course, as soon as I post this, three people are going to jump and say, Well in 1978, Lindsey was taking a crap backstage during one of Mick's interminable, self-indulgent drum solos, then came back out and said, "Boy that felt good. Now, where did I put that dang ole Les Paul? Oh, there it is." But notice, he didn't actually say "Django," though in his inebriated state "dang ole" sounded like "Django."

That doesn't count.

I'm not sure what the point of all that was. But I just wanted to say, Django! If you haven't heard any of his stuff, make sure you go check it out. Of course, Lindsey must like him because he named a little ditty after him.

This thread has taken such an amusing turn..........

LMAO..! How about when he told Warner that the name of his new solo album would be "Django In The Night" after his tooth operation?:)

I love Django Reinhardt. He's in my top 10 guitarists of all time, and has actually influenced a lot of my playing, particularly his fluidity. I often wondered also how big an influence he was on LB, and why LB decided to cover John Lewis's tribute to him: was it because he really liked the John Lewis song, or because he was also a fan of Django?

Weirdly, "Django" is a very beautiful song, but sounds nothing like Django (if ya get what I mean!).

:wavey: :wavey: :wavey:

p.s. I'm playing it as the opener for my gig next week.:cool:

In the new...
 

GuitarPlayer magazine Carlos Santana is on the cover and the first paragraph of his interview says alot about him having a comfort zone...

GP-Like its predecessor, "Shaman" is a cooperative effort. Did you try to approach this project differently from "Supernatural"?

C.S.-"I'll use Wayne Shorter's beautiful words: "It was completely new and totally familiar."

BTW-There are a couple of GREAT interviews with David Gilmour & Mark Knopfler that seem way more interesting than the Santana interview...I never knew Mark Knopfler was a left handed person...That would explain why he has a great hand for the fret board...Brian J.

Re: In the new...
 

WOW!!! Two of my favourite guitarists! I spent the past month or so working on an FX-created tone that would be "the best of both worlds" of the MK tone and the DG tone...and it's come out quite well...Madformac will attest that for me (I hope)!

Thanks for the heads-up Brian, I'll be getting a copy of that first thing tomorrow for sure!


:wavey: :wavey: :wavey:

Re: In the new...
 

Yes indeed, Knopfler, my favorite guitarist, is left handed which is why I guess, he has the power to pull perfect triad bends (three strings at a time) and vibratos plus also has such left hand fluidity and speed.

Having said he is my favorite, it changes between Knopfler, Buckingham, Peter Green and the great Eric Patrick Clapton every day or two.

Seteca's fx generated tone is very good, a bit of Knopfler, Gilmour and Green rolled into one. Slick stuff.

:wavey: :wavey: :wavey:

Speaking of Mr. Clapton...
 

what do ya Brits think of his new 2 cd Live release? And what did you think of his performance last Friday at the George Harrison tribute show? Brian J.

Yep.

First time I heard "Game of Love" I knew it was Santana.

I think he DOES have the emotion.. I think his playing is all emotion, actually. I loooove how he gets REALLY into what he's playing and he just throws his head back, opens up his mouth, and really starts to enjoy what he's doing. He's done that forever..

one of the reasons why he's among the greatest.

(Still love LB.)

As for me, I'm not sick of "Game of Love" yet. Give me another month of heavy FM radio rotation and I might be.. but I'm still just enjoying every track on Shaman: GoL included.


Sarah

Re: Speaking of Mr. Clapton...
 

I think the new 2CD set is quite good, there are some songs on there, My Fathers Eyes etc that Eric hasn't played that much live so in that respect it was good, the bad thing was the sound mix, not up to the usual Clapton standard (My favorite is the Live In Hyde Park DVD). The other thing that annoyed me a little was the sound of Eric's 00042 EC Martin guitar. The action was set far too low for the stuff he was playing, far too much rattle.
The highlight for me was Billy Preston's performance. His little dance (I have the DVD) was cool too.

Maybe ChiliD could help us because he was probably there on August 18th 2001 at the Staples Center, LA. Chili?

I didn't see the Harrison gig although I did see a bit of the rehearsal on TV. I would have loved to go to the gig but tickets were changing hands for $2000 each! Not really in the spirit of the concert.
I chose to spend the night playing some of George's music (including his very honest "new" album Brainwashed) and remembering what a great player and human being he was.

:wavey: :wavey:

Nope, didn't see Eric this past tour...only the third tour I've missed of his since his 461 Ocean Blvd comeback tour in 1974. (the other two...the Ronnie Lane ARMS Benefit tour in the mid 80s; the "all blues" From The Cradle tour in the mid 90s)

I've listened to the 30 second clips of the "OMC, OMD" set at CDNOW; pretty much what I'd expected, except for "Going Down Slow"...THAT sounds like the Splinter Group doing "Real World"!!! (btw, what's with this "CDNOW/Amazon.com" thing? What a way to ruin a good online store).

It was nice to read that Carlos mentioned Peter Green THREE TIMES in this latest GP interview.

There are already a few bootlegged tunes from the Harrison Tribute show in circulation...(about B+ sound quality...audience recording; real echoey)

Tom Petty & Jeff Lynne (Tom singing George's part, Jeff doing a great job singing Roy Orbison's part) doing "Handle With Care"
Ringo doing "Photograph"
Paul McCartney doing "For You Blue" (wow, hearing Paul's voice on this is really eerie)
Paul on ukulele doing "Something" (ala the way he's been playing it on the Driving US tour) then segueing into the full band w/Eric on vocals finishing the song (ala the original recording)

Hey chiliD...
 

there will soon be "A+" quality bootlegs of the tribute show due to it being filmed for a future release...Plus with all the access to www.bootlegzone.com I'm hoping to find it sooner than later...(I'm anxiously awaiting to receive my copy of the great George Harrison/Gary Moore live version of "While My Guitar Gently Weeps"!!!)

I'm also curious to see the it due to the fact that some of people who played the show have a dislike for Clapton and said he was supposedly "Grand-standing" and that their dislike showed up on the stage while playing with Mr.Clapton (Clapton was the "band director")...Their dislike was even to the point that most left the aftershow party before E.C. showed up (He was announced to show, Which he never did.). Aww those big British Rock Hero Ego's...lol...Brian J.

In Eric's defense, I would imagine that it was an EXTREMELY painful thing for him to deal with. Not that it was any MORE painful than anyone else who participated, but Eric & George were probably closer than George was with his two "Beatle brothers" for the past couple of decades. Hence, Eric's being virtually silent in regards to a public statement since George's passing. I think no matter WHO the "Music Director" at this show would've been, there would've been some hard feelings toward the MD. I mean just look at the egos involved...Sir Paul, Jeff Lynne, Tom Petty, etc, are all BAND LEADERS in their own right and are used to calling the shots themselves. That the show even got off the ground is probably DUE to Eric being the MD and his usual "humility" probably got everyone THROUGH the show...whether there was back-biting going on or not.

Even at both the Queen's concert last summer and the "Concert For NY" last fall, there visibly didn't seem to be any love lost between Eric & Sir Paul...which is probably why they haven't worked together in any major capacity over the years.

Re: Hey chiliD...
 

I read something about that too on the Fox news website a day or two after the show. It's always hard to know how much of this stuff to believe as the writer did a lot of projecting and editorializing, but this is what was written:

Did Clapton Give McCartney Short Shrift?

Much as he worked tirelessly to make The Concert for George a hit, Eric Clapton nevertheless made some enemies Friday night.

In his overzealousness to put on a perfect program, some of the musicians claimed he over-rehearsed them. More than a few noticed Billy Preston's fingers were swollen from putting in eight-hour days, six days a week for nearly three weeks. But apparently Clapton felt that if he was paying Preston he should adhere to the schedule.

Same for the other famed sidemen whom Clapton brought to the show including Jim Keltner, Jim Horn, Klaus Voorman, Ray Cooper, and Emil Richards among them — all names that appear on countless solo Beatles albums.

Jools Holland, the English Paul Schaffer who put together the shows and was musical director, is said to be furious that Clapton didn't thank him from the stage for all his hard work.

Clapton also didn't do much to make Paul McCartney feel good. McCartney doesn't take to not being in the spotlight — he took over both The Concert for New York and the Queen's Jubilee shows, for example.

As a Beatle and a friend of Harrison's long before Clapton, McCartney felt that he should be prominently featured in the show. But after his introduction by Ringo Starr, McCartney's ukulele rendition of "Something" — which he does on his tour — was circumvented by Clapton taking over mid-song and finishing "Something" as a rock number.

McCartney then performed a beautiful version of "All Things Must Pass" and then was demoted to a piano on the side of the stage. I watched him pretty much not strike the keys for the balance of the show, clearly seething over his tertiary role.

Ringo must have known how he felt, because he went out of his way to split from the after-party before Paul and wife Heather arrived. The McCartneys spent the shortest time possible — just minutes — maybe anticipating Clapton's arrival. (He never showed though.)