Rumours Part 2... are you serious?
 

I'm checking the Bob Brunning 2004 book "The Fleewood Mac Story - Rumours and Lies" I recently recovered, I had already given it up for lost until my brother called to say he’d found it in his attic. It’s a long story how it got there.

I had forgotten much of what is in that book, different or not included in Mick's book. One of those things caught my attention; I want to ask if anyone remembers any reviewer or critic saying this about Say You Will:

The new album, Say You Will, was completed in November 2002 and released in April 2003. It immediately entered the UK and US charts and was largely welcomed by reviewers and fans alike. Some reviewers carped a little, referring to it as Rumours: Part Two. But considering Rumours: Part One has now sold upwards of 25 million copies this might be regarded as a huge compliment, and certainly not something likely to worry Warner Bros.

If I had to choose an album as a Rumours 2 -which I don't— it would be Mirage. But not SYW. Not only because Christine isn't on it, but because it's quite different from Rumours.

Perhaps they were referring not to the sound or sales of the album but to the subject matter, as on a few songs such as "Destiny Rules" "Thrown Down" and "Say Goodbye."

All those sped up vocals and instrumentation, and oddball production generally (not on the whole thing, but on much of it), are sonically at odds with not in keeping with Rumours.

Bob Brunning's writing style was really terrible.

It is much more condensed than Mick's book, and you can tell it is a collection of articles and interviews he must have kept. But though more condensed, it includes some info not mentioned in Mick's book.

Several stories in Mick’s book are also based on articles—some exact phrases appear in YouTube interviews—but most of the book is narrated as if he were recalling himself, sometimes adding a touch of emotional truth that makes the book more engaging. Of course, this can also spark controversy, as there is room for disagreement—especially if we have read other sources that contradict the account.

SYW is nothing close to Rumours. It much more like Tusk. As the fans of this board always say: its too long, its too cold, its not mixed correctly, I cant sing to Immune, Lindsey had too much control. The same criticisms of Tusk. SYW is a brilliant album. I understand Lindsey completely. The album rocks and is a musical orchestra. Fleetwood Mac has never played like this on an album before. So much music basses thumping, drums rolling, great guitar, etc. Lindsey's guitar offends people on Come. Boo hoo

I agree it's nothing close to Rumours. Tusk too long? Maybe (I'm sure Warner thought so), but I didn't find it cold. I'm not a music pro so I can't analyze SYW or compare it to the other albums technically. What I do know is that, even though there are some things I didn't like about Tusk, I listen to it very often, entirely. I rarely listen to SYW.

I think Lindsey would agree with me that the process was similar. The band was against him and made him cut tracks. They wanted even more tracks cut but he got his way and they stayed. There is also experimentalism on SYW which is very similar to Tusk. Songs like Come, Illume and Everybody Finds Out are not the typical Mac songs. The band was against him but yielded to his ways. Mick says during the SYW documentary that if the album only sells 500K copies Lindsey is going to be so depressed. Sadly that is what the album sold back then.
So the process of creation was more similar to Tusk than Rumours. At the time of release both were considered slightly failures (in their time). Tusk clearly went platinum right away but those days albums sold.
And before the SYW haters jump on me YES I agree the album is missing Chris.

But Tusk came on the heels of the biggest album in the world.

SYW came 16(SIXTEEN!!!) years after Tango. They should have played it safe(r). Cut that bitch down to 12 tracks, and made it a more pleasant experience for the CASUAL fan.

Oh yeah, and without Christine, it was gonna suck anyway...

I'm sure Reprise and Warner would have agreed with you. Casual fans are who at the end define their market share.

I remember there were threads and poll here, about which songs would we have chosen so that t SYW would have a usual runtime.

If it had only 12 songs, would I listen to it more often? Maybe, but I don't think much more. Definitely not as much as Tusk.

Would it have sold better? Probably, Google says when Fleetwood Mac released Say You Will on April 15, 2003, the standard CD version carried a standard list retail price of $18.98. Correct me if I'm wrong but that was a bit more expensive than the usual price. How much more would it have sold if it had cost ~$13? I don't think much more; it was already 2003.

How many casual fans cared that Christine wasn't there, to the point of not wanting to buy the album? That's a good question.

In 2003 digital sales were beating CD sales. Not only had music changed but selling it also changed. Peacekeeper came nowhere close to getting to the top 40. I think it hit #80 but it did alright on rock charts. In 2003 500K copies was considered almost a flop. Today that would be a HUGE success. Another perspective is Chris's 2004 solo album. It had zero promotion and sold 50k copies. Few knew about it and it was a huge commercial failure. Fast forward to 2018 and Buckingham McVie selling 50k copies and it debuted in the top 20.
You are correct. Casual fans did not know or care Christine was not there.
Too many Stevies on this board that also make the claim songs should have been cut. Its like cutting songs from Tusk. Why? I think people are delusional thinking that if 4 songs were cut from SYW that it would have sold more copies. That makes no sense. I cherish all the songs. We need to stop judging albums and music by commercial success or length of album. By that standard Extended Play should be the most popular EP/album ever. I rest my case ;)

Casual fans are the ones who make your album sell 5 million copies. Die hards are the ones who buy your 50k.

A great album(ones that sell into the stratosphere) is a great experience, front to back. It flows seamlessly. I'd say that Tusk is that. SYW is NOT. I maintain that if they'd cut it down to the poppiest 42 minute album possible, that it would have sold more.

Casual fans not caring about Christine? Maybe not seeing her face, but hearing her pop songs, and her soothing voice? I've told this story a million times, but I got my copy of deluxe SYW from my cousin's roommate. She'd bought it, and tried to like it, but HATED it, and gave it to me. "This doesn't sound like FM!" She especially hated Come. I'd say she has good taste...

Well I do think it makes sense. But not because it would have been a better album. That's not my point. It could have sold more copies only if that had meant a lower price. By 2003, most casual fans interested in buying new Fleetwood Mac material already had other priorities—rent, children's school tuition, among other expenses. Yes paying a high price wouldn't have bankrupted them, but when you have more important things to spend money on, the reaction might simply be Hey, I will not pay that much for that album. Maybe 4 less songs wouldn't have meant an extreme cheap price, but a regular one could have eliminated the perception of an expensive product.

Those are my thoughts just about commercial outcomes. I am not within that "we" who judge albums based on that, but let's face it, that's a -not only but- important factor who may affect the future of any band.

And according to the review aggregator Metacritic, Say You Will received "generally favorable reviews" based on a weighted average score of 66 out of 100 from 8 critic scores. I know that just because I just read wikipedia. Actually I don't mind critics. Sometimes I check movies scores, but never music's.

So if SYW had only 12 songs, would I listen (entirely) to it more often? Maybe, but I don't think much more. I mean, I don't think I would have liked it much more, even if it had won the Grammy or sold more than Thriller. But that's me. As I always say, I love Empire Strikes Back but that doesn't mean that movie is better than The Godfather or Citizen Kane; "best" is not that same as "favorite".

Now you have a project to do. Put on SYW and listen front to back with headphones and rediscover the album you are not crazy about.
I still listen to Street Angel. Half the album is really good. I love the non-commercial aspect of it and the country rock feel. Songs are really good lyrically and there is lots of music unlike TISRA which sounded like studio musicians adding a soft back track.
I don't love the album but its got some good moments. One album I never bought again upgrading to CD is Rock A Little. Most of the album is a giant dud. It has a few ok tracks but nothing listening through for. When I listen to SYW I am blown away at the production and music. Maybe because I mostly listened to it with headphones? Who knows.

The Eagles Long Road OOE debuted at #1, AND was a double album, AND had an exclusive deal with Walmart, and I believe was only $9.99(maybe it was $12?) THAT'S how you sell your sh1t. And sold 3.5M in the U.S.(counted as 7M sold, since it was a double album).

For lack of a better and more socially accepted word....our band is retarded. Bad decisions abound!

I mean, can you imagine Tusk without Brown Eyes, Think About Me, Honey Hi, Never Forget, Never Make Me Cry, and The amazing Over and Over?

And then have those songs replaced by those two whackos? It would be a trashy mess, much like SYW is.

SYW is a substantial album. It has ideas. What’s good is very very good. But about 1/3 of it sinks under its weight.

Even the greatest moments on SYW leave me a bit chilled. For all of their supposed “chemistry” LB’s and Stevie’s songs on the album do not hang together all that well. As a listener, I find a lot of it interesting and even innovative—but it lacks earth, and it lacks heart. By contrast, Christine’s IN THE MEANTIME has so much heart, is so genuine and honest. No pretense or posturing…No calculation.

Christine didn't make promises on her sweet lips.
Nor did she have lies on her honeyed tongue!
But yet, magic in her fingertips... :D

Anything was possible…

Well I must agree with this since I listen to ITM all the way through more from time to time. SYW... I usually listen to songs that I always choose. Again, I’m not a music pro, so I won't compare albums technically, but as a simple listener, I simply enjoy ITM much more.

So I did the homework Macfan4life asked me to do. Yes SYW sounds great with headphones (Lindsey's production never dissapoints). But so does Tango or Mirage. Even The Dance, I loved to listen to it with headphones. Sorry but it didn't change my feelings about the SYW album.

For the record, I don't hate it. I do like some songs. But I do find the album less Fleetwood Mac, a bit cold, lacks heart.

Back to the topic, SYW is not Rumours 2 at all. Maybe the recording process and decisions had similarities to Tusk, but it is not Tusk 2 either.

Now, I remember back in those days there were "what if" threads about an In The Meantime Say You Will album. I found it fun, specially because that would have mean Christine never left the band. I think the title of that album would have been completely different—starting with the fact that it wouldn't have included 31 songs. I’m not going to play the game of picking which ones, but in that parallel universe, I imagine it with a more Mac sound.

A recent article re: SYW..

https://natscanfly.substack.com/p/i-...bout-fleetwood

If I were to get rid of a third of the album, I would probably end up with this as a running order.

Everybody Finds Out
What's the world coming to
Smile at you
Bleed to love her
Thrown Down
Steal your heart away
Say you will
Miranda
Destiny Rules
Peacekeeper
Goodbye Baby
Say Goodbye

I like the punchy, attention-grabbing opening of EFO (John's bass is great, as it is on SAY) although it's a shame the music wasn't written by Stevie; this tracklist also gets rid of LB songs on which Nicks doesn't really feature and it reins in Lindsey's weirdness (Miranda is his most edgy contribution that remains, IMO). It also has Christine's two archival contributions early on which means she's less buried in the saggy middle. It does remind us of her absence, though. I do find the album as it is a bit of an endurance test. Perhaps this suggestion is a bit more cohesive.

DR and Peacekeeper have a gloomy edge that twins them together. I like the jaunty sadness of Say Goodbye (think You and I part 2) so much that I want it to be the last thing I hear of the experience- it would be a counterbalance to giving the lead-off to Stevie for the first time.

It's not exactly Rumours 2, but maybe it's Tango 1.5.

Would it have made much difference in terms of reception and sales? Probably not. But the six excised songs could have featured in a follow-up Mac album, an EP or perhaps more appropriately on solo offerings.

[Edit] Hmm. I've just listened to my reduced SYW. I really rather liked it.

Wow, this is spot on! natscanfly, you nailed it.

Wow a bit harsh that article is.

Let’s see. What do I agree with? Well yes, I’m one of those who most prefer selected songs to the album as a whole. But though it doesn’t sound like the Fleetwood Mac I expected, I don’t call it a mess. That’s too much. I agree some of the 9 + 9 songs sounds like solo works together, but it is not a mess.

18 tracks too many? For commercial reasons yes, specially for an “old” band releasing an album in 2003. There have been $uccessful double albums like The Wall, Goodbye Yellow Brick Road and even phenomenons like Grease and Saturday Night Fever. But look at the years those albums from those old bands are from. A Fleetwood Mac long album (or a double one) was a challenge in 2003 that I don't think was necessary. But as Macfan4life said, we shouldn't judge albums based on sales (I agree, but that has nothing to do with whether or not we liked them).

Ok by 2003 Stevie Nicks wasn't writing songs as good as she did in the 70s to early 80s anymore, but I don't know which ballads are being referred to with “that sound like they were written by your stoned mom who just got back from Neverland”. I laughed at that, I must say. And I’m intrigued if it means the Disney movie island or the MJ ranch. :laugh:

When I read “The band encountered some difficulties with the sequencing for Say You Will”, I remember threads here from that year where some ledgies suggested a different order to listen to it, affirming “You'll like this album better with this track order”. Yes many didn't like the sequence, or blamed it for their dislike of the album.

I don’t like the title that much but Say You Will is better than Strangely Familiar. It could have started theories of What does it mean??? but it would have been like repeating the “rumours” all over again.

Miranda??:shrug:

I'm not sure I can see Come, Murrow or Red Rover working with the others. Maybe that's just me. I'm not a huge fan of Miranda but I thought it sounded OK there and at least Stevie contributes to it.

Come and Murrow didn't belong. They don't sound like FM at all.

The Ledge, I Know I'm Not Wrong, Tusk, all need removed from Tusk. They don't sound like FM at all.
The hate for Lindsey on this board is just too much

Come and Murrow barely sound even like Lindsey. Murrow I kind of like, but I'm trying to think of a solo album of his that they would fit on. I love Red Rover, but it's definitely in keeping with "small machine" Lindsey.

For the record, I really like Lindsey's Tusk songs with the exception of NTF and WMYTYTO. That album was right for its time. With SYW, something else was needed, which wasn't quite what we got.

Just for Lindsey? Think about it.

I agree those 3 plus other Lindsey songs didn't sound like FM at that moment. Of the 3 songs you mention, I don´t like The Ledge, I often skip it. Not crazy about IKINW but it's ok. Though I usually skip all the alternate versions included in the Deluxe.

Tusk was called an experimental, new wave, different, etc. album and in large part, it was because of Lindsey. I agree with that, but I do like most of Lindsey Tusk songs. And for the record, Rumours is my favorite album.

I don't like Come, Illume, and Miranda. I've almost forgotten what they sound like.

Lindsey has always been experimental. Its in his DNA. I am trolling the hypocrisy of those that love his experimentalism on Tusk and Law and Order but SYW is a bridge too far?

Say You Will Similarities to Other FM/FM-Related Albums
 

As expressed by many, Say You Will is like Buckingham Nicks 2, with each songwriter having distinct songs (or distinct portions of a song - Frozen Love being the only official shared songwriter credit). In my opinion, it is more like Tusk in that you can isolate Lindsey’s songs and the result is like a Lindsey solo album (as Lindsey has commented on Tusk). On Say You Will, you can definitely hear Lindsey’s production skills and guitar parts on most, if not all, of Stevie’s songs, but Stevie’s background vocals on Lindsey’s songs are barely noticeable.

A side note, I cannot bear to listen to the album version of Say Goodbye. The version from the leaked Gift of Screws songs from 2000 is (imo) a much better version. The album version is sped up way too much for my liking. The live version is way better than the album version as well.

I agree 100%. SYW version is too fast, when I listen to it makes me think Yes, Lindsey, I know you're amazing and work wonders with the guitar, but in this case (Say Goodbye) it doesn't go with the song's lyrics; it causes the message to be lost.

The live Soundstage version (with Stevie) is slower and, above all, emotional; it conveys a beautiful nostalgia. That’s how it should have been on the album. My opinion.

I love Lindsey's Tusk songs, with the exception of NTF. I'll never understand his love for that song, because it blows goats(no, not that one).

Come is AWFUL, and not for the subject matter. I think he was trying to prove that he's a rock god on it. He failed.

Murrow is just too much noise, and too repetitious.

I had to listen to Come today to remember the song to better remember the song (I skipped it when I was listening to the album with headphones). It starts… interesting. But at 1:31… well, that is when I think someone did need an exorcism: Lindsey in Come, not Stevie in the 1975 Green Manalishi (quoting the last thread at Early Years forum).

I remember Come was compared to So Afraid and the Tango song, I guess because those songs also feature an impetuous shift at some moment. But I disagree with that. SA and TITN did rock. Lindsey had already proved he is a rock god. At least to me, at least at those moments.

I think what I mean by this is that when Fleetwood Mac was triple-headed, there was somehow more space for Lindsey to do his own thing. Christine could also contribute Songbird effectively as a solo, with minimal guitars from Buckingham. The song styles, after all on Rumours did vary considerably and the them of personal break-ups ironically held the whole thing together. By Tusk when everyone is apart, there is even greater room for sonic adventure.

So they reboot for the Dance but they then lose Christine. They record four years later but that more limited version of the band, with a bit more discipline, could have produced a great Buckingham-Nicks album with a killer rhythm section. Pruned a bit, maybe it has echoes of that.

Perhaps I'm not making much sense. I rarely do, these days.

Is there a YT link to this version, or could you please upload the file and respond with a download link? Thanks.

P.S. Same for anyone who has One Man Show. It's out of print and I'd love a copy. Thanks.

This one has a Lindsey explanation of the song.

Thanks......

I gotta say a lot of the blame for SYW lands squarely at Lindsey's feet.

Exactly. Hard to market a turd. And agree Homie.. they really haven't been a marketing machine. Rumours has fueled them to the finish line.