Destiny Rules documentary
 

I felt like watching this was but didn't feel like trying to find my DVD. I was happy to find the whole thing uploaded onto YouTube. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQOjptfZLJ4

Anyone watched this lately, especially after Lindsey's firing and everything that happened? What does everyone think about the documentary now?

I'm in the middle of watching it now. Had to laugh out loud at this exchange:

Stevie: Maybe we should have your guy mix, like, two of my songs that are...
Lindsey: Two, now? Okay. :rolleyes:

:lol:

Simply put: you can easily see that the rest of the band can’t stand him but they put up with him for his creative genius . Stevie is over dramatic and reactionary but Lindsey really just goes out of his way to antagonize her.

Not just for creativity, but for the name value of the (almost) Rumours lineup reforming for an album, which they actually seem to expect to sell much better than it would.

Behind The Mask and Time had sold poorly, while Tango and The Dance had sold well. The common denominator to good sales seemed to be having Lindsey and Stevie together.

I thought he downplayed her value [after getting her songs done he says they now just have to get her "presence on" (rather than "contribution to") his songs]. But how did he go out of his way to antagonize her?

I will say this: His idea of making it a double-CD was crazy (18 songs were too many). Stevie barely had enough songs to contribute to a single-disc album. If you can't say what you have to say in 80 minutes, something's wrong. He should have done what he "threatened" to do at the beginning: given them his most commercial songs and kept the others for solo work. He may have feared he couldn't get solo work released, but if he had gone to a label like Artemis he probably could have.

I watched it on youtube a few years ago. In some ways it does not feel that long ago and in other ways its a reminder how long ago it was. Its fun to see the "old" cars and flip phones.
I really enjoyed it and glad they did it. I wish we could have gotten one for another album. I was so empathetic to Lindsey's plight. You can see so many of his Tusk elements for SYW. Everyone wanted a shorter commercial album. The sad part is when Mick says Lindsey will be really hurt and destroyed if the album only sells 500k copies. And guess what, the album sold 500k copies. Even that shows how long ago this was because an album today selling 500k copies would be hugely successful. The music industry was changing at such a rapid fashion.
I know I am in a minority on this board but I love the album. Of course it was hollow without Chris. But I am thankful they went forward and created the album. I really don't hate any of the songs. It used to be my workout CD back in the day so I must have listened to it a million times.

I also love this album…it took months to get into it, and even now it’s not always easy listening.
But I like that, something that’s complex and great to really get your teeth into.
Yes a couple of the songs I don’t appreciate…..but it never was Rumours.

Destiny Rules is a great driving song.

I used to listen to it cycling home from work late at night, hurtling past the city lights and along a dark river. Now it always takes me back there.

I totally agree. I rewatched it a few months ago and got a strange sense of nostalgia. My mind still thinks of SYW as their “new” album despite it being nearly 20 years old. Listening to it brings back the excitement of being 12 and going to Tower Records after school to buy a brand new Fleetwood Mac CD for the first time ever.

Of course I could (and have) spend hours imagining how much better and different it would have been if Chris had been part of it. (That could be a whole other thread in itself.) But I’m also glad it happened. I’d place Thrown Down, Smile At You, Everybody Finds Out, and Destiny Rules among Stevie’s best songs of all time, and I like most of Lindsey’s songs on it too. Plus I see it as the spark that started the long cycles of touring that eventually gave Christine something to come back to when she was ready.

Endless touring started when people stopped buying cds. Artists were no longer making enough money off album sales, and had to resort to touring constantly for the income.

I’m not sure how much of that applies to Fleetwood Mac. Rumours alone has to line their pockets.

So that's why Mick has been bankrupt(financially, but also morally) so many times.

They haven't earned much from BTM, Time, SYW, or BuckVie. And Tango is 35 years ago.

I’d be willing to bet all of his bankruptcies since 1984 are Chapter 7 to do away with business debts. I’d be shocked if most of his ventures aren’t LLCs. That’s completely different from what happened in 1984. Businesses do it all of the time.

Absolutely.
It was my jogging CD if you could picture that today its laughable but if you remember when portable CD players came out they would skip if you jerked it or ran with it. The more expensive ones did not skip and I was so proud of it. So much of the album has an intenseness good for running or cycling. Even songs like Illume are angry and make you give that extra punch. When Everybody Finds Out came on, my pace would definitely pick up.
Your line about cycling next to a dark river with city lights in the background brings me to:
I like the coastal cities, I like the lights
I like the way the ocean bends into the city at night
It's like living on a working river this coastline is glittering
Like a diamond snake In a black sky

I love when the music hits home like that

When OSOTM came out I was under the influence of something walking along Daytona Beach at night listening to the cassette. It was one of the most magical times in my life and the part in Ghosts "and you feel as if someone is following you" I would always turn around and look :lol:

To me, this documentary is a clear visual of Lindsey trying to produce a Fleetwood Mac album, and Stevie's politics taking over the band in a way where, even her staff nearly have the same standing as a member of the band.

The album itself is non-cohesive and cold to say the least. Some great tunes on SYW, but the ^ above^ shift in power is playing out on a documentary. Add to that, the heart of Fleetwood Mac was in Great Britain restoring a house.

Two egos, an industry that's not even close to considering a single album, let alone a double. From a band that is absent of a key singer/songwriter.

Touring is the only option now to keep everyone afloat financially. Let's just hope the experience was good for Stevie since she has all the star power.
Let's see how this plays out. :shocked:

I think the documentary shows that Stevie got what she wanted with this album. Her favorite Chris Lord-Alge mixed her songs, but she wound up liking Mark Needham's mixes better so she only used Chris Lord-Alge's mix for one song.

I also wonder if they did a double album, how many songs would it have been? 30? And would Stevie have brought songs that were on In Your Dreams or 24 Karat Gold to the table for Say You Will?

It's played out. Over. Kaput.

Christine's death was the end. The stupid old goat firing Lindsey ended the band for me. Now with Christine's loss, THEY'RE DEAD TO ME. I'd go to a Lindsey solo show, but other than that, Mick can starve to death, for all I care. Merry Christmas, indeed...

YIPPERS..It played out.

Many thanks to the stupid old goat for ruining the last chapter of the band of our lives.

Not quite. Lord-Alge mixed one (maybe two) of her songs and she then relented and agreed to go with Lindsey's guy under duress. Stevie didn't choose Needham over Lord-Alge due to preferring the former's results. Rather, she chose not to fight about it with Lindsey and for the sake of social harmony just let him have his way.

I always felt Lindsey's reason for opposing Lord-Alge (at least as he states in the documentary) was a stupid one: that he works fast. So what? I work fast too, because I'm good at what I do and can do a good job fast.

What he could have said instead (and what is probably closer to the truth): As producer, I need the authority to choose and supervise post-production personnel. Perhaps he felt that would have been too politically toxic. I notice on Live At Boston that Lord-Alge mixes Stevie's songs and Needham mixes Lindsey's, just as was contemplated for Say You Will.

A while back I asked here whether, based on the one song on the album Lord-Alge mixed vs. the other songs, who was the better mixer. You all overwhelmingly responded that he was rather than Needham.

Leaving aside 24-Karat Gold, no songs from In Your Dreams would have gone on a longer Say You Will because none were complete at the time other than "Annabel Lee" (the best song on the album), which Stevie had forgotten about and was reminded of during the making of the album. Put that song on Say You Will and make it the lead single and maybe–just maybe–the album fares better.

One job of a producer is to pester relentlessly the songwriter (or the songwriter's staff) for everything in his or her hip pocket. Lindsey should have excavated "Annabel Lee."

Rock’s greatest soap opera ended with a plot twist? Who would’ve guessed?

I think she would disagree with this. She, in the end, was NOT happy with the album and NOT happy with the production of most of her songs. She wasn't especially fond of how Lindsey produced Thrown Down for sure. She would say that she did what she feels she's always had to do with LB as producer and that is compromise to keep the peace and as a result not like some of the results. She's always talked about how when a song is done not to her liking, she just loses interest in it. Or you wish you'd fought harder or whatever. I recall when she later did IYD with Dave she made it a point to say and to have it shown in the doc how much she DID know how she wanted her songs to sound, and added that it was so much easier working with someone (Dave) who didn't take her not taking their suggestions or contributions on a song personally. After SYW she never wanted to record with LB again.

As for her liking Needham's mixes better... she says something to that effect in the doc, but I don't believe her. I think she was just capitulating to make it easier for the band. Especially based on what she said after the album and then the tour for SYW was done. Once she's done her due diligence, been a good soldier and sold whatever is the latest album and tour in all the interviews etc "best ever " blah blah blah, once the money has been made and it's done and dusted, THEN her real feelings come out.

And, she’s wrong on that. The demos were almost as lifeless as “Dreams” until Lindsey did something with them. “Thrown Down” was one of the best on the album.

Ok, I'll believe you and stand corrected. In my recollection of the documnentary, I thought she had Chris mix Destiny Rules, Everybody Finds Out, Silver Girl, and Illume which I think were the four songs she did in Phoenix right before coming to meet Mick, John, and Lindsey. And then she decided to keep Chris' mix of Destiny Rules for the album.

As far as not using songs from In Your Dreams for Say You Will, wouldn't Secret Love and My Heart have been completed by 2002?

Maybe you're right about it being four songs. As I recall it (perhaps wrongly), the agreement was for Lord-Alge to mix one or two songs of hers and then perhaps more, but she relented after the one or two and agreed to Needham.

As for "Secret Love" and "My Heart," I didn't know they were pre-2002 songs. If they are, I'm the one who must stand corrected.

As evidenced by Live In Boston, where she has Lord-Alge mix her songs while Needham mixes Lindsey's.

We could have had one final album from the band, if it weren't for her.

Are we forgetting. We got the best quote from this documentary that is used all the time on this board: Would you say that to Bob Dylan?

Looking back I wish Christine was allowed to partake in the SYW sessions even though she would not tour. But I completely understand why they were not crazy about that idea. Fleetwood Mac was trying to be relevant in they are a band still creating new stuff. Members that are half in sort of dissolves that premise a bit. But we did get a sensational solo album by Chris the next year.

Yes we are all bitter. Stevie put up with all this drama for decades. She could not have done it for one more album and tour? They dont even see each other on the road except on stage. The silliest and stupidest firing in rock history since Sammy Hagar.

We did. Did you really miss her on LBCM?

That said, they could have put “Miss Fantasy,” “Without You,” “Sad Angel,” and “Not Make Believe” on the album, dubbed in Christine, and released it as Fleetwood Mac “On With The Show” in late 2017.

I think Say You Will was one of the Phoenix four songs and not Illume, so my bad. But I think Destiny Rules was the only one mixed by Mr. CLA.

I thought the Lord-Alge decision was because of his price as in I thought Lindsey wanted Needham because his fee was less than Lord-Alge's.

Lindsey felt Needham was more creative, and actually thought about the songs he was mixing, rather than the production-line (no pun intended) approach of CLA, who is in high demand and thus needs to crank each song out within..what was it, like 4 hours? So that way he could presumably finish 2 a day and fit in all his clients... So basically LB felt like CLA wasn't doing anything creative or unique for a given song but rather giving it the cookie-cutter CLA treatment, whereas Needham really crafted each song to what suited it best. Recall how LB was impressed with how Needham fit in the "together, together, together" vocal with Lindsey's trademark twinkly guitar sound on his mix of Thrown Down. Honestly my sense with Stevie is she wants to make sure her vocals are loud and upfront. That was the thing that really struck me when BD came out... how way out in front of the rest of the tracks her voice was, giving it a somewhat harsher effect, compared to where they put her in the mix on the FM albums up to that point. Compare the official mix of Silver Springs to the remixes later where they pull the louder, stronger vocal out (her preference). One thing I loved (and others often don't) is how upfront Sharon and Lori's harmonies are on BD. As she did more albums, their vocals got further back as well, and hers even more upfront. "I wanna be a staaarrrr....I don't wanna be a cleaning lady"

Maybe a little off-topic but I wish somebody would have convinced Lindsey to slow down "Say Goodbye" or even re-record it as a proper duet with Stevie (I think she just put her vocal on top of his solo recording) and make it sound closer to the live arrangement.

Me too. He was cutting corners by not redoing it. And as you say, at least slow it down – or save it for Under The Skin, where a sped-up version (without Stevie) would have fit.

What is "BD"? "Blue Denim"?

They had to have Lindsey and Stevie to tour as Fleetwood Mac. With Christine retired at the time, it couldn’t just be Stevie, Mick, and John, that pretty much would have been a Stevie solo tour with Mick and John on drums and bass.

With Christine’s death, it makes he resent that they fired Lindsey in 2018 right before what should have been their farewell tour. It would have been the perfect final chapter in their legacy. I can respect and empathize with Stevie for not wanting a toxic work environment and not being able to put up with Lindsey anymore, but at that point, she had done it for so many years, she could have stuck it out for one more tour with him. And Lindsey for not wanting to compromise on their proposed timeline for the tour. He knew Christine was in a delicate state, he had just toured with her in 2017 and even mentioned it in an email to Mick. That first TV interview they did when they announced Lindsey’s removal from the band, you can see on Christine, Mick, and John’s faces that they were not happy with the situation.

I do too for Stevie and anyone feeling or being abused. However, it's still unknown by us what was toxic? That night at MusiCares, she wrapped her arm around his arm. They held hands on the red carpet. What did he do to her? Why didn't Mick or John do anything about it like pushing him up against the wall and saying you do that again and I'll eff you up!

Really, I think that's how SYW was made. Dubbing in the other vocals. It would have been nice in another dimension if they had Christine's keys on all songs. (If she had been welcome to participate).
I think Christine would have helped balance Lindsey in the studio emotionally as well. Without her, it was a mess of nasty emotions. No longer break up emotions, but greed and control issues.

I didn't miss Stevie on LBCM. I wouldn't have minded is she was the one who left the band and they continued as a 4some. The four of them touring in smaller venues would have been sensational.

yes.

i love Destiny Rules doc, but compare it to the warm and easy Making of Buckingham McVie, and it's easy to see where all the drama and toxicity was coming from in Fleetwood Mac.

Unlike Stevie, Christine didn't have a solo career to put on hold when working with Lindsey or with FM as a whole.

My theory: After 2002 (maybe 2004), Stevie wanted to get away from Lindsey for good. She promoted Say You Will in 2003-04, but couldn't get Lindsey out of FM until Christine returned, as the band needed at least two of its Rumours lead vocalists.

When Christine returned Stevie finally had her chance, but needed a tour with Christine in the fold before making a move. Then the Buckingham McVie project postponed her taking action. The 2017 East-West concerts were too small in number to justify a coup then. Then there was MusiCares.

Finally, and especially having come off her most successful solo tour perhaps ever, she made her move. I believe she may have been prepared to walk away from the band had they chosen Lindsey over her (she didn't need it anymore). But as they were now strictly a live act and not a recording one, she was clearly more valuable to the enterprise.

And so, at long last, she got away from Lindsey.

And ruined the final chapter of our band. I hope she regrets it, although I seriously doubt that she does.

Steve, you, Elle, Tony, and I have been saying all along that it would have been a blessing to get a four-piece. Market it correctly and that little niche of FleetBuckVie could have been some great albums and tours.

I think we even did Setlists:

The Chain
You Make Lovin Fun
In My World
Don't Stop
Red Sun
World Turning
Got A Hold On Me
Trouble
I'm So Afraid
Say You Love Me
Little Lies
Isn't It Midnight
Big Love (band)
Bleed To Love Her
Get Like You Used To Be
Go Your Own Way

Encore
On With The Show
Carnival Begin

You and I Part II (Acappella)

Even if she did have a solo project, I don't see Christine being toxic with her band. Her ego was mostly in tact her entire career. That's why she's a billion times more important that Nick$.

wait, so you are saying if one is more successful than others around them they have to be toxic to those people? while just a tiny a bit less successful people can have nice warm working relationships?

interesting theory. might be happening in many bands, but hopefully not most.