The Infamous Bob Dylan Comment
 

So I had a question for all of my ledgies peeps.

What's the big deal about Lindsey Buckingham's comment on her first person to third person lyrics? I thought he put it nice enough.

I'm curious what you guys think of the "Well, you wouldn't say that to Bob Dylan" comment. I thought it was kind of rude since he seemed nice enough, but I'm ready and willing to hear what al you have to say!

She's a *****, and she can't stand him(Lindsey).

I think that it happened more than 14 years ago and probably they don't care or even remember it anymore.

I know right? It was reasonable and polite question. The response was a complete ego trip ladden slam that she keeps repeating as the worst thing ever for more than a decade now, as one of the prime examples why he's so "horrible" to work with. Pretty mind boggling for unbiased observer, unless of course your world view is filtered through chiffon.

I think you're wrong. She dedicated a whole section to that comment in her self-glorifying movie (which I love by the way 'cause, she deserves a lot of the glory) "In Your Dreams". I think she thinks of that comeback she had for him every time their eyes meet. She is a holder of grudges that claims she would never hold a grudge.

Anyways - what I think of the comment? He was right to point it out - but ultimately she WAS/IS right. Poetry is whatever you want it to be that expresses what you're trying to say. "And now you're going home" is more poignant and more beautiful-sounding than "And now he's going home".

The fact that she compares herself to Bob Dylan though is a little laughable. Don't get me wrong - I adore and worship the woman, I truly do. I also love Bob Dylan and own nearly each and every one of his albums (I'm missing a couple from the 80s, so sue me!) but Dylan has CONTINUED to release new and relevant and ever-evolving albums at a rate of more-or-less one every two years since 1962. Stevie has been anything but prolific in terms of actually released/published music AND - again, keep in mind I really do ADORE this woman - but she does still write with just about the point of view and wisdom of a teenager or young adult. It speaks to me cause I, myself, still love and think like a teenager in my love affairs but, come on - Bob Dylan is way more profound and has constantly looked in different directions and reinvented himself so many times. Do you really think Dylan would ever tour the same 15-or-so songs for over 20 years? No way in hell. Set list changes every night and he loves to confound people. Stevie is all about bankability.

So in the end - I adore that scene in Destiny Rules and I ultimately think SHE IS RIGHT but ... c'mon, even though you speak to me more than Dylan does most of the time ... you're still no Bob Dylan. N'either is Lindsey ... only difference? Lindsey knows damn' well he's no Dylan. Nobody's Dylan. Only Dylan is Dylan.

My two cents, for what it's worth.

Really, I didn't know, I still haven't managed to watch In Your Dreams yet.
Obviously she likes to remark about things that happened a lot of time ago, like my mother ironically likes to say "women can hold grudges for ever", but I really think neither of them cares so much about these things as much as we like to think anymore.
I picture them like my old late grandparents who argued all the time about little things they did or said ages before but then promptly forgot what they were arguing about when lunch/dinner/snack was ready.

As the producer, it's his job to edit and run things by the writer that he might see as a problem. His take was perfectly within the scope of his dutiesl and as a writer himself, he couldn't not bring it up. Changing tenses is up to the writer. But, I think what he was trying to say was," because this song is so literal and not as abstract as a Bob Dylan, you might want to re-think this." (paraphrasing)

He might have just said, "hey you changed tenses are you cool with that?" and it would have been over. But, his approach was maybe a bit too condescending to her ears.

She's not like other people, she do what she want to.... ;)

Taken on its own, the "Destiny Rules" incident makes Stevie looks like an overreacting bitch. However... this was probably the 689th time Lindsey has tried to correct her grammar over the past 40+ years. Her annoyance was justified.

The difference was it was caught on film this time. And yes, she's held a grudge and regurgitated the story time and time again.

Forgive my attempts to conjugate, but it basically seems to switch between:

1) Third Person Past
2) Third-Person Perfect (or Present) (or Future??)
3) Second-Person Present where "You" is EITHER
....a) Lindsey OR
....b) Stevie

So it's a total of four different tenses in one song. ... and yes it's beautiful

Truefaith, I love what you did, putting their names in the song. But I took one verse differently than you:

You (Lindsey) say you're (Lindsey) sorry
Now you (Lindsey) should walk away...
You (Lindsey) have nothing left to say

The rest I agree with you, though. Funny how the song can read differently to everyone!

Yeah, I realized I always thought that was Lindsey too, but maybe I am assuming some consistency there where there isn't any haha.

So you (and I before this exercise) heard it this way (which is even more bonkers):


SECOND-PERSON PRESENT - STEVIE
YOU (Lindsey) say YOU (Lindsey)'re sorry
Now YOU (Lindsey) should walk away
But it's so overwhelming,
YOU (Lindsey) have nothing left to say
YOU (Stevie) can sit outside his door and wait
Well, YOU (Stevie) can dedicate your pain to him

haha i have yet alternate version for you guys - this is how i always though of it:

YOU (Lindsey) say YOU (Lindsey)'re sorry
Now YOU (Stevie) should walk away
But it's so overwhelming,
YOU (Stevie) have nothing left to say
YOU (Stevie) can sit outside his door and wait
Well, YOU (Stevie) can dedicate your pain to him


he apologized, and now, after getting the apology she needed, she feels she should walk away. but it's all too overwhelming. she has nothing left to say - or do.

:D

Oh. I think YOU are right. ;)

Yes!!! I like this

It's all too overwhelming she's getting her person/tense all f'dup!

Lindsey absolutely had a valid point. I was surprised that he'd even say that to Stevie though, to be honest... but I think Lindsey also said he felt it was so worth mentioning, in an effort to help strengthen the song, otherwise he wouldn't have said anything at all. But Stevie's response to him about whether he'd say that to Bob Dylan kinda put him in check. So yeah, I think Lindsey had a point, but Stevie hit the nail on the in her response to him. And I'm glad they didn't change the song, it works just fine how it is.

I have Stevie's back on this one. I don't think Lindsey was out of place so much and was offering a suggestion. But I see Stevie's point. She does write the way she feels it and to correct tense can be offensive to a poet or songwriter.
I speak and write like this too. In 10th grade I had an English teacher who loved the way I wrote but she would knock points off my papers because I would use different tense over and over to describe a situation. I relate to Stevie on this one and NO ONE would dare to say that to Bob Dylan nor would they care.
I think Stevie was a bit overly sensitive but I see and understand her point completely.

She not like other people she due what she want two

I agree, as the producer, he had a right to make a point. She had an equal right to shut him down, which she did. They moved on. I can't believe she would feel compelled to bring it up ever again.

Regardless of the 'true' meaning of the song, this was fun trying to figure who she was singing to or at, and it was awesome to hear other's thoughts on the song. Thrown Down is my favorite song on Say You Will, and really one of my favorite FM/SN songs ever. It definitely is one of her more accessible songs in that it's clearly about their relationship, but it's not maudlin or bitter, just a nice, simple song.

Maybe we should talk about Think About It, a song Stevie wrote for Christine. Also, I think I read Stevie wrote Say You Will for or about Christine, too. Any analysis on these?

I think they are both at fault....her for having such a thin skin where he is concerned....and him for trying to correct her lyrics, as producer shouldn't be addressing himself to the music side of things.
Her lyrics are idiosyncratic to her and what makes her,her.

This song sounds kinda sad. Yeah I know, off topic. But seriously

I hope you know that THAT'S what a producer does. They're not there to tell her how pretty her chiffon is.

agreed... it's like a last ditch effort to get back together.

well he could have at least talked about the amazing spirit catcher she brought!!!

That's a good way to word it. This was actually probably the first FM song I ever heard. It played at the end of this episode of Friends where Joey had a party for his soap opera.

In my head, (and I'm not a shipper) I imagined this happened during the Dance and he asked her to get back together and she didn't answer.. and then he left and never mentioned it again..

And that stupid talking fish. What a dolt!

I'm not really a shipper either (at least not like one of the ones I think people refer to when they say shipper), though I'm not like an anti-shipper either, but I've heard about that Dance era. Interesting times that's for sure. I love the song too. People always complain about her Say You Will songs but I really like this one. Goodbye Baby too.

I didn't like SYW, Destiny, Silver Girl, Running and Goodbye Baby..

I liked Illume, Thrown Down, Everybody Finds Out, Smile At You

I always thought that whole verse was the royal you... As in, "as a lesson, people, say you're sorry, then you should walk away" etc.

I do NOT think Stevie overreacted by asking Lindsey if he would say that to Bob Dylan. He wasn't simply asking her opinion on that line, he was telling her it was a "rule of thumb" (or something similar) that peple shouldn't write like that... As if she isn't a gifted, prolific writer, who has sold millions of records with her lyrics. As if she doesn't understand how music works and he does, despite the two of them coming from the same place and working side-by-side as songwriting equals. I see how she would be insulted, and give him a little attitude. He gave her attitude first by insinuating that she didn't know the rules of thumb for writing music when that's literally her career.:shrug:

Furthermore, Stevie has mentioned numerous times that Lindsey tried to teach her, before Buckingham Nicks, how to properly write songs, to the point where she couldn't stand The Beatles because he made her listen to their songs over and over to learn about song structure. I imagine she gets a little tired of him mansplaining to her from time to time.

I think playing with tense and pronouns adds great depth to her songs... Look at how we all interpreted a few lines of this very song differently for this exact reason!

Mmm, I'm mostly the same. I forget how good Illume is. Smile at You is controversial I think because people are so in love with the demo.
Say You Will is such an awful song. I can't believe they let it on the record. To me I feel like it was Stevie sort of trying a Christine type of thing but failing horribly.

Yeah, the title track is horrible. And it makes me dislike the album because that's the title.. ya know

completely agree. he was politely pointing it out, and she said no and why. if it stopped there it would be a completely normal exchange. Bob Dylan self-comparison was the part that made it over the top. Bob Dylan is a Nobel prize winning poet. deservedly so, however controversial that may be. in that DR exchange, Stevie comes across as being fully convinced that she's just as good as Dylan. and that's why Lindsey was biting his tongue after she said that. to his credit, he didn't react and let it drop.

i think this is probably true. and probably in the times past he was not nearly as nice about it as in that DR exchange. she may have kept it all bottled up for years which led her to completely overreact in that doc. and considering how many times she regurgitated that story, somehow she doesn't see how bad it makes her look.

I didn't see anything wrong with what he said at all. I don't know if they have sensitivity issues so maybe to her it was, but it really didn't come across condescending or anything like that to me. I was rolling my eyes when she said 'there's a way to suggest and there's a way to tell', when he was indeed just suggesting, he wasn't going 'you have to change this or else we won't record it'.
And I think he was biting his tongue as if like 'Stevie, when you write a 'Like a Rolling Stone' THEN you can say something like that'.

And how often she's brought it up, like he has to have done something since then that also annoyed her why is that her go to thing.

That exchange was rather telling. It was a minor, minor point that Stevie blew out of proportion. She got used to people treating her like a rock star, which is something Lindsey will probably never do. Her success doesn't impress or intimidate him, and I think that's the biggest reason she doesn't want to work with him.

That's just it. Her pretension bled into the band. And they ain't havin it. She's not someone that handled fame very well. She feeds off of it.

I am shocked. Never in my 13 years here, have I witnessed such vitriol, leveled towards that chiffon clad temptress.



Glory hallelujah! Finally, people are seeing her for what she is!:angel:

A home wrecking adulterous slutty party girl

Yes! Thank you, Olive!