Survivors
 

Ok I know everyone is probably sick and tired of talking about the Mac's use of substances and beverages. However, my whole life I've always heard about rock stars dying tragic deaths because of drugs, depression etc. And usually if they didn't die, the band would break up because it got so out of control. I'm just curious because these 5 seemed to have come out of the 70s and 80s relatively unscathed. And we all know they weren't perfect angels:roll eyes:. Certainly all of them dealt with their own personal demons and consequences but today almost 40 years after the Rumours incarnation of the band got together, the individual members are still making GREAT albums, they all seem to be exceptionally happy and content in their personal lives, and, with the exception of Chris, they seem to have no problem going out on the road and possibly even recording together. What do you guys think it is that allowed this band to really overcome all of it's demons and hard times to really rise up on the other side.

Money.....

I wouldn't say they came out of it unscathed. A lot of stuff fell apart in the wake of their excesses - you basically ended up with 3 maybe 4 addicts. It's a miracle they managed to keep the band going for as long as they did until Lindsey left in '87. And, it's a great question - how/why they managed to pull it back together. Money never stopped other bands from imploding - if anything money was a contributing factor. I would say rehab and therapy must have really worked and a joint effort at recognizing they all do care for each other and have a growing respect for what each person brings to the band. Plus, coming out of the fog and being more mature probably did help them to understand how being in a vehicle like "Fleetwood Mac" only helps them financially if they can work through all the politics and emotions that get in the way.

Agreed that it was money but not only money. It was the magic and the love that kept them together too. Mostly Mick, sometimes Christine, sometimes Lindsey that got them in the same building. I remember reading that Mick and Lindsey ran into each other in a 7-11 or something and started talking after OOTC. They were like family. But a family that made millions when all together. Separately after a while, they could only make thousands.

I seriously think they wore Christine out. They wear me out and I'm only a fan. I think Lindsey was worn out in 1987 from Fleetwood Mac. You're right CADreamin, they did not go unscathed.

Yes when I was thinking about all of this before I posted it, money came to my mind as well. But I realized that money might have been the reason in the late 80s and even the early 90s for some of them. However, right now, I think all of them would be pretty Ok if they never toured as FM again. They all each have their respective projects and I know that for the most part all of them have been relatively smart with their money. I just think that if they really couldn't stand each other they wouldn't really have to. So to me there is a kind of magic that exists between them. You can't deny musical chemistry.

But while they may have not come out entirely unscathed, imo, they did a pretty damn good job of recovering. I would even argue on Chris' behalf too. She chose the decision that was the most healthiest for her. She now knows what is good for her. I also have the feeling that with Christine she wanted to give up FM for awhile before 1998. I think she is probably the most reluctant rockstar ever :laugh:.

With the other members there seems to be a calm about them that I haven't seen much of in really any other rockstars. They each seem to be content with their respective paths of life and to me have a deeper respect for each other. One big thing is none of them tend to long for yesteryear. Which I believe to be a huge contributor to their personal success. And also the one thing that separates them from a lot of other classic rock acts. I agree with the assumption that they are like a family. Despite all the turmoil that happened within the inner circle of the band I believe that they potentially saved each other from the deeper excesses that definitely existed. I think they were protective of each other to a degree that they all felt safe in each other's presence. Did they use drugs? Yes. But so was everyone else at the time. To me, with the exception of a few incidents they got through the days of drug use pretty safely. I definitely think the fact that they were with people they could trust helped them immensely. I think it was probably a combination of the family and their inner strength. That helped them...maybe. Of course everyone knows that as much as you love your family, you have to take a break from them occasionally.;)

Money, but just because they finally decided to use it right. You must realize that cocaine is expensive in the US (you wouldn't believe how cheap is in Peru), so money could be also the reason they were that addicted.

And they were lucky. Mick and Stevie could have died anytime during the 80s. They just realized (Stevie first) they were killing themselves, and it wasn't worth it.

It wasn't easy. I don't know how or when Lindsey or Chris stopped consuming cocaine, but Mick and Stevie's addictions were better known (seemed to be stronger). (And Stevie's klonopin addiction too). Mick tells in his book, about Stevie:

I went on part of her long 1986 tour, playing percussion in a hot band that included Waddy Wachtel on guitar, and I could see that Stevie was running herself right into the ground. She was drinking and doing a lot of cocaine. Every night I'd watch her launch into one of her dancing spins on stage, and each night the spins got more and more dizzy until I was afraid she was going to fall off the stage during a show. "Stevie," I said, "you're going to hurt yourself. You've got to work on getting away from being so high while you're onstage."

She would cry. "Oh Mick, I know it! I don't wanna be like this. I don't wanna need this stuff so much. I'm gonna do something after the tour's over." I knew what Stevie meant. You can't go cold turkey on a major tour after years of partying and having a good time. But now the party was over. It had become an addiction, a way of life. Later, while Fleetwood Mac was laboring in the studio, Stevie and her band went to Australia, where her drinking worsened and she fell off the stage twice. I was afraid she would injure herself, or worse.

Did they use drugs? Yes. But so was everyone else at the time. Was everybody falling off the stage during a show? Twice? I don't think so. Stevie's problem was really serious. She was lucky at the end. So was Mick. He tells in his "Two sticks and a drum" dvd about his heavy addiction. His daughters also talk about it. On those days that was a sad family I'm sure.

I agree that their addictions were definitely serious. I personally never knew about Stevie's falling off the stage incidents:eek:. So glad she got help. However, what I am mainly referring to is the fact that they DID survive. And they by no means were any less addicted than anyone else. However, I'm just wondering what it was that not only made these people survive from the drugs but also thrive in both their personal and professional lives ever since. They came out of the situation tougher than ever. And seemed to have healed all of the old wounds. In the "Two Sticks and a Drum" documentary, Mick even seems to have repaired his relationship with his daughters. I'm in no way denying that they were in bad shape. They themselves have gone on the record to say this many times. However, I am wondering just what it might have been that made ALL of them not only survive the idea but prosper afterwards.

I want to clarify my original point. Money never stopped other bands from imploding, but added fuel to the fire or caused them to implode.

So, I don't believe it's solely money that caused them to regroup in '97 and continue on. They obviously care for one another -- even to the point of helping each other earn a nice living or invest in retirement funds.

Haha, you should do a Fleetwood Mac Retirement Investment Commercial!! :laugh:

If anyone thinks it's MORE than that, they're fooling themselves. :nod:

Mick & John are the only ones who PROBABLY go beyond that, since they've been through hell & back together. (other than the occasional session, like Warren Zevon's "Werewolves Of London" or the more recent ZZ Top tribute album creation of "The M.O.B" with Jonny Lang & Steven Tyler, I'm surprised they haven't done more together outside of Fleetwood Mac...which probably boils down to "money", once again).

If they weren't making millions, does anyone (who DOESN'T qualify as a "shipper") REALLY think that Lindsey & Stevie would work together? Sure, they're "ex-lovers", but at this point, they're "co-workers" when Fleetwood Mac is active (or the guarantee of a large payday exists) and that's it. How many of YOUR "co-workers" would you really hang with outside of work, or would stay in touch with if you DIDN'T work together? Uh-huh, I thought so.

Why does being in a band together automatically mean that you also have to be bosom buddies? That seems to be a rather rare occurrence in rock music. More typically, the greatest bands in history seemed to be full of very different people and full of bickering and tension. But beyond the money, what ultimately holds them together is the chemistry that is so much greater than the sum of its parts. One doesn't necessarily have to love a musician in order to play with them; it's more about the love for the music than the personalities involved. And when the chemistry is good, ones playing gets better, and it challenges you to be take things to the next level.

Specifically with regard to Fleetwood Mac, I think there is a deep level of mutual musical respect, particularly between Stevie and Lindsey. Stevie is in awe of Lindsey as a guitarist and an arranger. Lindsey admires Stevie's ability to render brilliant songs using her rather rudimentary musical skills. She allows Lindsey to take liberties with the production side of her songs, but she also keeps him in check, which results in something that retains Stevie's simplicity while taking on Lindsey's semi-eccentric flourishes. This is the kind of give/take chemistry that he could never get in his own solo work, and he realizes this. He understands that taking input from others (even those he may perceive to be less skilled) enhances his own skills as a musician and producer. If he truly did not believe his participation in Fleetwood Mac was personally beneficial in any way, he would definitely have stayed away. I would venture to guess that Lindsey's own evolution as a musician/songwriter probably slowed after he left Fleetwood Mac in 1987, which could help explain why he never got around to releasing a solo album throughout the ten years of his absence.

Out Of The Cradle????:shrug: The best damned album he's released under his own name?

Oops, forgot about that one. Well, yes, it was his best solo album up to that point. But stylistically it seemed very much in the vein of Tango.

But, at least it moved forward from Tango, which was the next step from Go Insane which was the next step from Mirage which was the next step from Law & Order which was the next step from Tusk.

That's my beef about Seeds We Sow, it doesn't move forward from Gift Of Screws (or Under The Skin, either)...which, compared to those previous albums, were only SLIGHT movements forward from Say You Will. (which I contribute to being that the majority of his material all stemming from the original unreleased GOS material).

That's ridiculous. Of course they do it because they make money -- but if they didn't care or have emotional ties to the band and each other it may not be enough of a motivation. For example when Lindsey left the band the money factor didn't outweigh the personal/emotional reasons he left. When Christine & Stevie left, it was for personal reasons. Why would they go back strictly for financial reasons if they didn't stay for the same reasons in the first place??

I care about my current coworkers even though I don't have a tremendous history with them (as opposed to the members of Fleetwood Mac). They help me make money too. But, some of my best friends have been people I worked with at previous jobs - friendships dating back 20 years.

But, maybe my opinion will be disqualified. Obviously, all shippers have been deemed brainless. :rolleyes:

Ok you say that they wouldn't want to work together if not for the money. What about Soldier's Angel? Or since that's clearly a shipper thing, Mick playing on Stevie's album. Obviously they got a profit from those ventures but I doubt it was anything that was too glorious that they couldn't have turned it down if they didn't want to do it. They obviously have reached a point in their careers where they do have a respect for each other. I don't think Lindsey would have helped Stevie out with that if he really didn't want to do it. He, in no way, shape or form was forced to do that. Same with Mick. I bet you that they are all relatively close friends. To the point that they can go for sometime without seeing each other but when they get back together it's like no time has passed.

And I agree with CADreaming. Just because certain people are shippers doesn't mean that they are senseless. I for one like to consider myself a "sensible shipper":cool:

Frankly I agree with most of this. Money money money baby. Lindsey's back in it coz he's got a wife, three kids in LA with private schools etc and a 20 million mansion to pay for. He can rationalize it all he wants, but it's money. As for wanting to right some of the past with Stevie, I don't disagree with that either. I think he knows he was a sh*t for a long time and would like to heal that to the extent they can. Age has a way of mellowing everyone and they've known each other for a long time. But if there wasn't still money to be made in FMac I just don't think he'd be in touch with most of them that much. I agree Mick and John would continue to be friendly. I saw an interview with Christine recently promoting her solo album and she said yes she thinks about her former bandmates and misses them, but most especially Mick and John since they go back so far. I think the same is true with Stevie and Lindsey, knowing each other since they were teens.

But never underestimate the power of money.

I think people who create art together are a bit more than just your generic office co-workers. The feelings involved are so intense that they create a bond. Even the passion and anger of arguing forms a glue of sorts. And then when you reach the height of success together that cements it. There are only 5 people in the world who know what it's like. As Lindsey has said, he hasn't shared as much with anyone else except his family and, in some cases, he has shared things with FM that he didn't even experience with his family.

When you click and are lifted to new heights, I think that there are reasons outside of money that you'd want to light that fire and feel that excitement again. It was amazing for US to watch The Dance and get chills that they could create such a spark after all of those years apart. Don't you think it had to be exciting for them as well. Don't you think that's a high they'd want to have, even if no money was involved.

I saw McCartney on Larry King (with Ringo) talking about how he sat by George's bed and just rubbed his wrist. He demonstrated the movement with his fingers and it was an incredible moment. He loved George and you don't have to be a shipper to see that.

It's stretches credibility to think that people who have shared so much and been tied together for so long, through good or bad, only collaborate for the money. And, after a certain point, money is just not enough. Ennui sets in. I've walked away from situations that weren't fulfilling for me any longer and I had a lot less to fall back on that The Mac.

Even the lure of money doesn't keep your emotions in check, if you just don't want to be somewhere or with some people any longer.

Michele

That's a great point -- and Lindsey has even said sort of the same thing about he and Stevie - that he communicates much more with her outside of FM than he does Mick, John or Christine. Of course, he would have to if he's working on reconciling emotional baggage with her after all these years. How that actually affects their co-worker status and parlays into a tremendous financial windfall, I'm not quite sure...

Thank you, Michele. You articulated that much better than I did. :nod:

What you said. I believe money is 90% of the reason Lindsey and Stevie are doing it. If FM were just an oldies act(:p they are, but at least they're a popular oldies act), and very little money was to be had, neither would be involved.

If OOTC, SA, and Time had been hits, there never would have been The Dance. But, the lack of performance of those albums jeopardized all of their separate careers. Reuniting this version of Fleetwwod Mac was really the only way any of them had futures in mainstream music.

The windfall comes from the FMac work... tours, albums, etc. That's where the real money still is these days.

The reconciliation with Stevie is separate from that, except of course that it crosses over in the FMac stuff as well. "The big machine".

Exactly my point. There are emotional ties that contribute to the decision to remain in a band together separate to and more important than financial gain.

But, see? That's just it...Fleetwood Mac is NOT a band in the literal sense anymore. They're individual musicians/artists who every four years get together for some project, be it an album or tour or both. A band, to me anyway, is an entity that has all its members focusing on a common goal and the "band" is the top priority. Fleetwood Mac ISN'T that. The Rolling Stones aren't that either, and haven't been for 30 years.

But I think Mick and Lindsey would like to be a band, the way you defined it, again. And the reason they want it isn't because they think they are going to make money. SYW didn't make them money and having a new album didn't make it possible to tour either.

That aside, just because they aren't making new music doesn't mean they're only in it for the money. That's like saying you meet up with your family for Thanksgiving just because you're in it for the food.

Not that I don't like homemade mash potatoes, with gravy and butter, a dash of sour cream . . . [salivating] But hey, I love my relatives too!

Michele

Maybe it's best to think of FM as a big dysfunctional codependent family....

(I am not suggesting this in ANY way represents anyone's real family)

Food & Football...what else? Anytime my family gets together it's "Drama"...try to avoid THAT!!

I'm from Michigan and the Lions do always play on Thanksgiving, but . . .

Let's say they do hate each other, isn't the pull of being able to play arenas still intoxicating? Aside from the paycheck. There's the glory. The experience. The limos. The planes. The audience. Looking out during World Turning and seeing that vast sea of people as Mick sputters something incomprehensible. Sharing all of that with people you were on stage with 30 years ago in some cases and 40 years ago in others. Heady stuff.

They know they can only do it a couple of more times in this life.

Michele

Yes, that statement in that post was quite ridiculous, I agree.
And...
It's not that Shippers have been deemed brainless. It's that no one is allowed to disagree or have a different opinion at all (Shipper or not)... don't you know that by now???? :laugh: We are all wrong all the time!

I agree with all of this. Stevie said that when the 5 of them were together she felt as if they were some kind of force. Like they were all movie stars or something to that effect. You can totally feel that too. Whenever I see pictures of them the chemistry comes off the photo and the video. I personally haven't seen them live yet. However, whenever I watch little old youtube videos either from the past or current days I can feel the adrenaline through a computer screen. It's impossible to sit still. No amount of money can create that kind of chemistry. They have a rare thing. And even though the band lost a significant amount of magic after Christine left, there's no doubt that it's still there. Ibet you anything that ALL of them still feel a rush from the crowd's energy, and when they play certain songs. The co-dependent dysfunctional family sounds very accurate in fact.

Yes, when Christine said that she looked over and saw Lindsey and heard his voice melding with the two of theirs and got chill bumps, I don't think she was lying. They feel something. Of course, I'm sure the thrill dissipates after months on the road together, but there's a power. It regenerates itself. There's an FM heartbeat and it never really dies.

Michele

could you speak a little louder? :p

Great points. I agree with you; money/commerce is not the single chain that keeps them together. Look at Stevie; she established a successful solo career. She doesn't need Fleetwood Mac to sustain. She could have walked away (which she briefly did!) and never looked back.

They have a chemical kinship that is both artistic and personal. Certainly, Mick Fleetwood has alway been motivating force to keep the band intact, as he done through many incarnations of the band. After all, a drummer needs a band!

But money as a motivating factor isn't as crass some imply. What if you had a job or situation where you were making a lot of money, enabling you to enjoy the finer things in life, and provide security for you and your family, wouldn't you want to do it for as long as you could? You can't blame them or be cynical for that.

The fact that all members of Fleetwood Mac are still alive is great. How many other rock bands from that era still have all their members alive?

Let's see... Tato, JME, Lidia, Sara, Norma, Norman, Daniel, Julio, Soledad, Carlos, la Otoya, and the list goes on. Former co-workers, some of them from more than 10 years ago.

Definitely Peru is a different culture from the States.

Ummmmmmmmmmmmm....ZZ Top

So we got...

Fleetwood Mac
ZZ Top

...who else?

The Eagles.
Crosby, Stills, Nash, & Young

LOL! Oh, yeah I forgot! ;)

Seriously, I think we all make valid points and mixed all together is probably closer to the truth than any one opinion.

I agree and I don't fault them at all for making money. And, I think some nights they all "phone it in" -- that's to be expected when you're out there doing shows on repeat and especially at their age -- but that still doesn't mean they don't care about each other and care about what they are doing and still feel tremendously blessed to still be doing it.